Is "hard work" a virtue?

[Magic Man]

The poor want more and in many instances, deserve more.

I just wanted to highlight this. How is it that you understand this, and yet you still go on diatribes like in the healthcare thread?

There is a battle for health services right now. Next year, there is a finite amount of knee replacements or bypass surgeries. The question is, who should recieve the limited services, the younger working poor or the elderly. No matter what, there is a shortage of services available.

Why is there a finite amount, and why is that amount not enough for everyone that needs them?

We have one group of cattle who wants everyone else to be treated as they are.

No, we have one "group of cattle" who wants everyone to be treated not like cattle.

 

[Zephyr]

Only rich people can actually afford "health food".


(you connect the dots yourself.....)

Healthy food is actually extremely easy to get and make. The problem isn't availability of healthy food. The problem is our underfunded and underperforming education system. You can easily whip up a tasty healthy meal for a buck or so, but many people simply don't know how to or don't realize that it's possible.

 

[Mr Cheese]

Only rich people can actually afford "health food".


(you connect the dots yourself.....)

This reminds me of New York city....

The poorer areas, in fact the majority of New York City itself, has few if any supermarkets. What there are instead are "bodegas" the corner store. often run by hispanics or chinese people. But who runs them is unimportant, the main problem with them is they are often the main source of food for many. They simply only sell junk. Macaroni like you mention and very little else. Maybe 3 or 4 fresh vegetables if you are lucky.

It is "ironic" how rich America is, and yet how many starve, how many children are malnourished. Then you have people who say that life isn't fair. Yet most likely they are still not one of the top 1-10 % of the populace that actually has the most access to America's assets... Life sure is NOT fair. But, the huge disparity between rich and poor that now exists is beyond the word "fair", to the point where it is more the word "criminal" than "unfair."

 

[Mr Cheese]

Healthy food is actually extremely easy to get and make. The problem isn't availability of healthy food. The problem is our underfunded and underperforming education system. You can easily whip up a tasty healthy meal for a buck or so, but many people simply don't know how to or don't realize that it's possible.

some dont have ready acces to health food.
But education is a factor. But really it is a viscious cycle A cycle of poverty, malnutrition, "cultural indifference" (the poor often keep themselves poor, for example by not actually valuing education) and poor education.
"Cultural indifference" is a large factor of course. Thinking that education is: not relevant to their lives; they have families to provide for, education is for the 'white man' what good will it do me? etc etc etc. So when it comes to healthy food, it is not the only contributing factor, they all matter really.

I find it further funny that corporations actually sponsor schools, although I believe less so now, there was a time when the school's sports equipment could be spnsored by Coca cola or Burger king..... (hmmm healthy sports stuff). Which of course often led to less funding by the state. Again a viscious cycle, schools need equipment, they need them fast. In order to do this, they sell their souls to the devil. A good short term solution, which often is problematic long term...
But anyway

 

[blackout]

Healthy food is actually extremely easy to get and make. The problem isn't availability of healthy food. The problem is our underfunded and underperforming education system. You can easily whip up a tasty healthy meal for a buck or so, but many people simply don't know how to or don't realize that it's possible.

I had to stop shopping at the health food co-op & store
five years ago, because I simply could not afford it anymore.

Still I do buy a handful of things there but the rest no.

I also can no longer be a member of the bio-organic co-op farm a few towns away,
because of cost and distance.

Just this morning in the A&P foodstore...
I could not find ONE healthy box of cerial with no added sugar
for under $4. And all small boxes at that.

They load everything with sugar.
All I can get my kids for snacks at school is unsweetened apple sauce and cheese sticks. Pretzels are somewhat benign as well.

My kids don't even know what sugar added peanut butter tastes like.
3/4 of the food store is filled with garbage & poison.
The meat is loaded with hormones,
the animals treated like cr*p,
the genetically modified veggies and fruit covered with pesticides.

But we're all slated to die anyway.
So you do the best you can with what you can afford, and have access to.

Processed foods are certainly speeding up the process though,
rich and poor alike.

 

[blackout]

This reminds me of New York city....

The poorer areas, in fact the majority of New York City itself, has few if any supermarkets. What there are instead are "bodegas" the corner store. often run by hispanics or chinese people. But who runs them is unimportant, the main problem with them is they are often the main source of food for many. They simply only sell junk. Macaroni like you mention and very little else. Maybe 3 or 4 fresh vegetables if you are lucky.

It is "ironic" how rich America is, and yet how many starve, how many children are malnourished. Then you have people who say that life isn't fair. Yet most likely they are still not one of the top 1-10 % of the populace that actually has the most access to America's assets... Life sure is NOT fair. But, the huge disparity between rich and poor that now exists is beyond the word "fair", to the point where it is more the word "criminal" than "unfair."

You are right about the bodegas.
I used to live in both Manhattan and then Brooklyn.

 

[Reverend Rick]

You are right about the bodegas.
I used to live in both Manhattan and then Brooklyn.

You lived in Manhattan? You have to bleed money just to stay one night there.

 

[Zephyr]

Yeah, I stand corrected. I live by a bunch of farms, so it's easy here. I completely spaced and forgot about availability issues in the city.

 

[blackout]

You lived in Manhattan? You have to bleed money just to stay one night there.

Yup. A family member had a tiny rent controlled apartment.

My dad paid him a partial sublet so I could stay there
while I went to school in the city.
It cut costs for all involved.

I was VERY VERY lucky.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

So...... They go to the doctor and she tells them to quit smoking, quit eating junk and poison and get some exercise. She informs them if they don't quit abusing drugs and alcohol their liver will be in jeopardy.

Six months later, the same sermon again. :faint:

People who smoke and eat junk food and do drugs and don't exercise will always have health problems, that's just life. I'm not talking about that problem, I'm talking about a different problem we can actually improve. I'm talking about the millions of Americans living paycheck to paycheck, then their doctor says all men over 40 should have regular cancer tests performed every few years. But a colonoscopy (to take just one example) to check for cancerous polyps in the U.S. costs $2,000 - $5,000. There is absolutely no reason it should cost that much, it's a simple procedure, I've talked to grad students from Taiwan and Botswana who say it costs far less in their countries, even including their taxes. Same with prescription drugs, the drug companies spend far more on marketing than R&D, and sales revenue for the top companies is 25% profit. A colonoscopy and many other tests should be a simple, inexpensive procedure that saves an enormous amount of money in the long run, and saves many lives.

But it's not, because when we are middle-aged, healthy and wealthy, we pay into a private system and our money is squandered by bureaucracy, swindling, marketing, lobbying, and profiteering. And then, when we are poor, chronic, or elderly the private system doesn't cover us, it only pays for 9% of long-term care costs for those people, while out-of-pocket covers 22% and Medicare/Medicaid covers the rest, to the tune of billions of dollars per year. And keep in mind, people on Medicaid are not sitting pretty: you have to be utterly financially ruined FIRST, then you qualify. In short, we pay for the cost of our care twice: we pay once into the private system, which doesn't provide a real safety net, and once into the public system, which foots the real bill. We pay high prices for drugs because we don't leverage our collective buying power....I'm pretty sure drug companies would survive selling at lower prices, for a mere 10% instead of 25% profit. And I don't understand what prevents the U.S. government from doing drug R&D, this is the government that harnessed the power of the atom, brought us into the space age, and then decoded the human genome. Notice we don't have to pay for those services PLUS the cost of marketing PLUS 25% extra so they can get rich, PLUS armies of thousands of lobbyists, like the pharma. and health insurance industries have.

 

[twinmama]

Asking for clarification - what do people mean when they talk about expencive "health food" in USA? (clueless Scandinavian asking)
Just stuff like veggies,fruit&fish or something special, fancy food?

 

[blackout]

Asking for clarification - what do people mean when they talk about expencive "health food" in USA? (clueless Scandinavian asking)
Just stuff like veggies,fruit&fish or something special, fancy food?

Heya twinmama.

The term "health food" generally refers to organically grown fruits and veggies,
no pesticides and such, often non genetically modified.

Also meats raised humanely, animals fed "normal" (often organic)
healthy animal foods, not overfed and underactive,
NOT shot up with hormones and such to make them bigger.
Generally much smaller portions of meat, that cost significantly more,
because the animals were raised and fed NORMALLY,
without hormones and unnecessary antibiotics.

Health food cerials for example, besides being made with organic ingredients,
usually do not contain refined sugars or high fructose sweetners,
but instead use natural sweetners such as honey, or maple syrup .
They are not so heavily sweetened either, sometimes not at all,
and use whole grain (unbleached) ingredients, and a Much WIDER variety of grains.
I have gone wheat and gluten (and also sugar/fructose) free for health reasons,
and cannot get cerial for myself anywhere but the health food store.

You can get brown rice, brown rice pastas, whole grain pastas (including spelt)
and alternative rice/pasta "alternatives" like millet and quinoia,
which are not available at the "regular" food store.
You can get alternative sweetners like estevia and guava nectar.
Spelt breads and non wheat breads (often with organically grown grains).
Seven grain type breads that are much "thicker" than even the most nutritious breads
you can find at the (normal?) food store.
The consistancy and taste is radically different.
The same is true for "health food" oatmeals/hot cerial type foods.
Much thicker, also more filling. Much more nutritionally rich.
Also besides rice milk you can get Almond milk and (mmmmm) Hazelnut milk.

I think that gives you a pretty good idea.
Most americans don't even LIKE the taste of health food
because they are so used to eating everything bleached of it's vitamins
and loaded up with sugars.

Oh... and to stay on topic here...
ONLY people with money can afford to consistantly eat this way.
The rest of us cannot. No matter how much we would like to.
(not that there are so many of us who would anyway)

 

[Kathryn]

Let me point out something about "health food" as described by UltraViolet in the post above:

Sure, depending on the area in the US - organic foods may cost more. Sometimes organic foods are not readily available for that matter.

But in the VAST MAJORITY of the US, fresh fruit, fresh veggies, natural cereals, etc. ARE available. They may not be "organic," but the produce aisles of nearly every grocery store in the US are full to bursting. You can buy oatmeal, rice, dried beans, cornmeal, unbleached flour, milk, real cheese, and inexpensive cuts of meat just about everywhere also.

In the US, a person doesn't have to restrict themselves to expensive, specialty items in order to eat more healthily. However, the sad truth is that most Americans prefer an unhealthy diet and lifestyle. Last time I checked, oatmeal, store brand milk, eggs, a bag of apples, beans, a whole chicken, fresh brocolli, etc were not prohibitively expensive. Chips, sodas, Cheeze Whiz, Capn Crunch with Crunch Berries, lunch meats, Hot Pockets, frozen french fries, etc are generally more expensive than foods that may require 10 extra minutes of preparation (and which are healthier).

So - it's not that Americans in general have such limited food choices - my gosh, that's a laugh, just walk down the aisles of nearly every grocery store in the US. It's not that we CAN'T eat healthier because it's more expensive.

My husband and I changed our diet about a year ago, and cut out processed foods, junk food, etc. We no longer buy canned veggies, sodas, chips, frozen foods, etc. We now stick to whole grains, fresh fruits and veggies, red meat only once or twice a week, etc. We don't shop at specialty stores - in our small town in East Texas, both Wal Mart and Brookshires Grocery carry all the basic foods we've needed in order to upgrade our diet. We rarely eat out in the evenings - we cook at home - FROM SCRATCH (gasp!!!!).

Our grocery bill has dropped significantly -- and we've both lost about twenty pounds. Our cholesterol levels are much improved and my husband doesn't have heartburn anymore. We feel great and are spending less money.

We have a lot of options here - it's just a matter of making fewer excuses and better lifestyle choices.

Oh - and walking is free exercize. But you gotta get off your butt and actually do it.

 

[Mr Cheese]

Let me point out something about "health food" as described by UltraViolet in the post above:

Sure, depending on the area in the US - organic foods may cost more. Sometimes organic foods are not readily available for that matter.

But in the VAST MAJORITY of the US, fresh fruit, fresh veggies, natural cereals, etc. ARE available. They may not be "organic," but the produce aisles of nearly every grocery store in the US are full to bursting. You can buy oatmeal, rice, dried beans, cornmeal, unbleached flour, milk, real cheese, and inexpensive cuts of meat just about everywhere also.

In the US, a person doesn't have to restrict themselves to expensive, specialty items in order to eat more healthily. However, the sad truth is that most Americans prefer an unhealthy diet and lifestyle. Last time I checked, oatmeal, store brand milk, eggs, a bag of apples, beans, a whole chicken, fresh brocolli, etc were not prohibitively expensive. Chips, sodas, Cheeze Whiz, Capn Crunch with Crunch Berries, lunch meats, Hot Pockets, frozen french fries, etc are generally more expensive than foods that may require 10 extra minutes of preparation (and which are healthier).

So - it's not that Americans in general have such limited food choices - my gosh, that's a laugh, just walk down the aisles of nearly every grocery store in the US. It's not that we CAN'T eat healthier because it's more expensive.

My husband and I changed our diet about a year ago, and cut out processed foods, junk food, etc. We no longer buy canned veggies, sodas, chips, frozen foods, etc. We now stick to whole grains, fresh fruits and veggies, red meat only once or twice a week, etc. We don't shop at specialty stores - in our small town in East Texas, both Wal Mart and Brookshires Grocery carry all the basic foods we've needed in order to upgrade our diet. We rarely eat out in the evenings - we cook at home - FROM SCRATCH (gasp!!!!).

Our grocery bill has dropped significantly -- and we've both lost about twenty pounds. Our cholesterol levels are much improved and my husband doesn't have heartburn anymore. We feel great and are spending less money.

We have a lot of options here - it's just a matter of making fewer excuses and better lifestyle choices.

Oh - and walking is free exercize. But you gotta get off your butt and actually do it.

those vegetables arent raised organic...
are you aware for instance that the common apple...will most likely contain numerous pesticides on its skin...WASH IT!

Are you further aware, by shopping at walmart you are eroding the overall economy of the poor?

Though I commend you for your dietary change. If you actually lived in a real urban area you would know how hard it is for some. You are correct though, produce is ridicously abundant in USA...

I just dont think its as easy as you proclaim, for everyone...

 

[Alceste]

Asking for clarification - what do people mean when they talk about expencive "health food" in USA? (clueless Scandinavian asking)
Just stuff like veggies,fruit&fish or something special, fancy food?

In North America, what we refer to as "health food" is generally what Europeans refer to as "food."

 

[Reverend Rick]

In North America, what we refer to as "health food" is generally what Europeans refer to as "food."

We agree.

 

[Rise Above]

In other threads, advocates of free market capitalism have argued that the biggest danger of socialism or communism is that people in such a system might not work very hard.

46 pages in, I'm sure somebody's already said this, but...

Advocates of free-market capitalism do tend to be savagely mislead in that way. I always get a good chuckle when I see these right-wing libertarians on TV, all up in arms about the welfare state and people "living off of the hard work of others". The very objective of each and every individual within a capitalist society is to emerge, at some point in life, as a member of the ruling class (though it seldom happens and the overwhelming majority of the ruling class were born into the role). The very foundation of capitalism is "living off of the hard work of others".

Socialism, on the other hand, seeks to abolish private property and situate the means of production into the hands of the public, thus compelling all members of society (apart from those who are unable to do so) to work for a living.

 

[Mr Cheese]

The very objective of each and every individual within a capitalist society is to emerge, at some point in life, as a member of the ruling class (though it seldom happens and the overwhelming majority of the ruling class were born into the role). The very foundation of capitalism is "living off of the hard work of others".

Socialism, on the other hand, seeks to abolish private property and situate the means of production into the hands of the public, thus compelling all members of society (apart from those who are unable to do so) to work for a living.

Helly Bllomin loooyah

mass frubals to someone who actually knows what they are talking about

PS is that Tom Waits?

 

[DallasApple]

In North America, what we refer to as "health food" is generally what Europeans refer to as "food."

LOL!!!!

Well the good thing about "health food" is it fills you up and you go to the DR.less.

I've tested it..(the filling up part)..i wanted BRAUMS ice cream.(FAT and SUGAR and its EXPENSIVE)..

So I ate a nectarine..And waited..and not only was I satisfied the thought of ice cream disapeared.And the nectarine cost about 50 cents.and was good for me.

I was craving again and got some ice cream..And I ate about 1.50 worth(3 scoops)..and felt temp immediate satisfactin and then was CRAVING more plus a gallon of water.

Pesticides? Are in everything.Including ice cream..So I would rather eat a nectarine.(its food).

Love

Dallas

 

[Rise Above]

PS is that Tom Waits?

'tis.