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Is "hard work" a virtue?

Jackytar

Ex-member
Great points, Jackytar, thanks for the excellent examples.

So let's consider those examples to be some of the down-sides of (relative) socialism.

The question is, what are the up-sides, and do they outweigh the down-sides? After all, some people will abuse any public welfare program, from public restrooms to unemployment. This problem is unavoidable, but is it outweighed by the benefits of the public welfare program? I suppose the answer lies in the details.

So for example, you would be right to point out that some people abuse the food-stamp system in the U.S. They blow their money on personal luxuries, then rely on food stamps to feed them. On the other hand, (presumably) because of the food-stamp system very few people in the U.S. starve to death. So the real question is, does the good outweigh the bad?

Excellent examples? Really? They aren't propaganda or puffs of smoke or informal fallacies or... what was the other one???? Oh yeah just plain stupid. I was beginning to think I've gone mad.

Obviously we are not going to sit by and watch people starve or suffer illness under any circumstances. That's why, for example, after much consideration of the issue I favor universal health care (of a sort). I can't get a Toyota on demand with no money or credit but I can get an appendectomy. That's simply a fact of life, as it should be. Unless and until we are willing to turn sick people away from the hospital doorstep the strictly free market solution to health care will eternally hit a wall. Somebody has to pay for this. (No folks, it ain't "free".)

Jackytar
 

Joe_Stocks

Back from the Dead
Hi mball,

As far as poor people, if you raise their pay (via higher minimum wage), they'd be able to afford more.

Actually, this increases unemployment among the very people you are attempting to help. It's not rocket science, when you artifically raise the price of labor (surprise, surprise) businesses hire less people.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
Weak.

Let's try this ---> here

Jackytar


An article full of anecdotes about how crappy the job market in America is right now? What does that have to do with anything, let alone free market capitalism? Unless you think anecdotes regarding the economic collapse of the Western world's most free market demonstrate that free markets = strong economies?

OK, I should clarify. Make a claim that is falsifiable. That is, a statement of fact. Opinions are not falsifiable, only factual claims supporting an opinion are falsifiable. There is no way I can tell you whether Bill Fritzensplinker ever got a job in the field he retrained for, or if he ended up gripping, or what, without phoning the journalist and getting his contact details for a follow-up interview. This is why free market propaganda uses anecdotes instead of research to get their point across.

Here are some examples of factual claims:


  • The American economy is in recession.
  • America boasts the least regulation and lowest taxes of any Western nation.
  • Countries with greater regulation of banking practices (like Canada) have not suffered as greatly from the current economic conditions as countries where banking is less regulated (like Britain and the US).
You can check the above facts for yourself. To me, these three falsifiable facts, taken together, demonstrate more than adequately that a country's economy is not strengthened by haphazard, indiscriminate deregulation.

But where are the factual claims of free market advocates? Find me something that is falsifiable, and I will try to falsify it for you. Likewise, I invite you to debunk the three factual claims I made above.

All you've done so far is support my point, which was that free market capitalists generally rely on anecdotes, misleading statistics and fantasy worlds (like the one where only free market capitalism can produce a pencil) instead of facts to argue their opinions.
 

Joe_Stocks

Back from the Dead
Hi Alceste,

America boasts the least regulation and lowest taxes of any Western nation.

U.S. corporate taxes are the seond highest in the Western world (I know that is one tax, but it is important).

Countries with greater regulation of banking practices (like Canada) have not suffered as greatly from the current economic conditions as countries where banking is less regulated (like Britain and the US).

Heavy regulated countries in Europe were in a recession before the U.S. was.

If you really want the U.S. culprit for its recession look no further than the Federal Reserve Bank.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
U.S. corporate taxes are the seond highest in the Western world (I know that is one tax, but it is important).

But you're talking about nominal rates, rather than actual rates. That is, you're failing to take into account all the loopholes in US tax laws which make the actual taxes paid by US corporations some of the lowest in the world.
 

Joe_Stocks

Back from the Dead
Hi Alceste,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Stocks
Hi mball,



Actually, this increases unemployment among the very people you are attempting to help. It's not rocket science, when you artifically raise the price of labor (surprise, surprise) businesses hire less people.


Proof, please.

The law of supply and demand.
 

Joe_Stocks

Back from the Dead
Hi Sunstone,

But you're talking about nominal rates, rather than actual rates. That is, you're failing to take into account all the loopholes in US tax laws which make the actual taxes paid by US corporations some of the lowest in the world.

I hear this, but what are the specifc loopholes? Have you looked at the taxes paid by say, the oil companies, not many loop holes there.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
Hi Alceste,

The law of supply and demand.

That's a phrase, not proof. To prove your point you need to demonstrate, using actual facts gathered here in reality, that every minimum wage increase, or most of them, or even one of them, anywhere in the world, has resulted in higher unemployment.
 

Joe_Stocks

Back from the Dead
Hi Sunstone,

How would that apply in this case? What happens when you aritifically raise the price of apples? People buy less apples. The same is true of labor. Make labor more expensive and it is purchased less.
 
Great points, Alceste. I'd like you to clarify one point about the so-called free market capitalism of the U.S:
  • America boasts the least regulation and lowest taxes of any Western nation.
  • Countries with greater regulation of banking practices (like Canada) have not suffered as greatly from the current economic conditions as countries where banking is less regulated (like Britain and the US).
When you say America has the least regulation and lowest taxes of any Western nation, that seems to imply that America in some sense has the most free market economy of any Western nation. However, I suspect you would agree that it is only "free" (or largely so) in a very curious sense, a sense which includes things like less regulation and taxes for businesses, but which excludes other forms of freedom.

It's not really a free market when you consider:

  • The bailouts for large lending institutions;
  • The subsidized agricultural industry;
  • The public funding which provides R&D and a market for the high-tech and weapons industries;
So for example, the pharmaceutical companies, and the most extreme "free" market advocates, oppose the creation of a parallel public health insurance system, because private companies would not be able to compete with it.

In other words, entrepreneurship, competition, free consumer choice, winners and losers -- key ingredients of a *truly* free market -- are ONLY allowable when certain people are the winners; namely, a few rich entrepreneurs, not millions of middle-class entrepreneurs. And that is called a free market, in the special sense of the word "free" used by capitalists at the extreme right end of the spectrum.

I respect the "free market" argument in principle, but in practice it sometimes resembles the Southern plantation owner who criticizes the North for meddling with his freedom to do as he pleases with his property.....sure, he is technically correct....but he is not really interested in freedom, he is only interested in "freedom" in a special sense, namely the sense which benefits himself.

To cite more examples of the game that seems to be played with words in this debate:

If the public supports a law which requires banks to state their interests rates clearly and straightforwardly, and any changes to those rates clearly and loudly, and in advance of the due date, so that people will not get behind on their payments and sink into debt..... that is inefficient government "regulation". That is not called responsible consumer action. It is not called de-regulation, even though it may reduce the complex, confusing regulations, terms & conditions, and other "gotcha" rules imposed by privately-owned banks....regulations which are designed to encourage people to unwittingly fall behind on their payments and pay higher interest, maximizing so-called "efficiency" (profits).
-BUT-
If banks hide their interest rates in fine print....and send pages and pages of terms and conditions, which are deliberately lengthy and deliberately dance around the bottom line...in the express hope that no one will read it....in the hope that their customers get behind on payments and lose track of the rising rates.....and if they give you a rate, but impose lots of regulations and exceptions on that rate....that is "de-regulation". That is comfortable, unrestricted "freedom". The refusal of consumers to band together in any way to prevent themselves from slipping into debt is called "personal responsibility".

Another example: If a government bureaucrat tells me which people I may/may not see for medical treatment...(which of course they already do, in the most fundamental sense possible, by issuing licenses to practice medicine)....then they are infringing on my free choice.
-BUT-
If a health insurance bureaucrat working for a private company does the same thing, that's preserving my free choice (again, using the special sense of "free").

Third example: "investment". When the public invests in anything, it does not count as investment. Roads, schools, environmental protection....this is "spending" not investment. Bailouts, loans to private businesses....the public can do this, but it must give this money to the private business owners with no strings attached, and not try to assume any of the rights normally accorded to an investor. It certainly can't demand a share of the profits, only rich individuals are allowed to profit, not the public, not even when it is public money being invested.

Fourth example: "Spending". $6 trillion for the war in Iraq alone. Hundreds of billions spent on every year, on R&D and purchasing of high-tech weapons we need to defend ourselves, because our thermonuclear arsenal isn't enough. This is not "spending".
-BUT-
Money for museums, public libraries, internet access in rural communities, public transportation, student loans, a public health insurance system....things that might conceivably yield returns on the investment (to use forbidden words)...now this is "spending", even though it amounts to a fraction of what is cited above.


I am not sure, but it seems to me there is certainly a role for free markets....but the idea of completely, 100% "free" markets is a fantasy, the question is where/how/how much to influence markets, and who benefits, i.m.o.
 
Joe Stocks said:
How would that apply in this case? What happens when you aritifically raise the price of apples? People buy less apples.
Yes but isn't that just basic microeconomics, depending on very simple but crucial assumptions, isn't the real world a lot more complex than that? For example, what if raising the minimum wage to a living wage causes many workers to cross a threshold in which they start demanding more products....in order to produce those products, more workers have to be hired, an effect which off-sets the tendency to fire workers due to the increased wages.

If Wiki can be trusted, it seems the data clearly shows it is not necessarily true that increased minimum wage = more unemployment. Here we see increased minimum wage from 1940 to 2000: File:History of US federal minimum wage increases.svg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The minimum wage increased seven-fold during this period.

And yet, during the same period unemployment fluctuated around 5% with no obvious upward trend: File:US Unemployment 1890-2008.gif - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If we accept this data, it more or less proves that increased minimum wage does not necessarily = increased unemployment.
 
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