Is "hard work" a virtue?

[Mr Cheese]

I said it narrows the disparity.

Jackytar

Originally Posted by Jackytar
No. I see overall prosperity as being more important than income disparity. We have a recession now, and the disparity will narrow dramatically as a result of the stock market correction


HOW?

I'll ask a second time

 

[Jackytar]

So, which is it? Is a minimum wage increase going to raise prices because the cost of doing business will increase, or is it "only a very small percentage" of Americans who will be affected? You can't use both arguments - you have to pick one.

I'm not making both arguments, because raising the minimum wage will not fix the problems that most families face. As I said, I can't get unskilled workers to work for anywhere near the minimum wage. I will also note that it is these workers that give us the most grief - not showing up for work, stealing from us, filing BS lawsuits, treating our customers poorly, poisoning the office culture. We have had exceptions and have paid them more and have given them more perks because they are valued employees that we want to keep. Our competitors actively try to recruit them.

We are a service business so employee costs are far and away the largest outlay of revenue. And we will have a slim profit margin if successful. Most businesses operate under these constraints. If I were to pay my employees more I will have to raise my prices or increase efficiency. That's how it works in any system.

And for the record, I am in favor of universal health care.

Jackytar

 

[Sunstone]

You realize that you have "10 times more" than most other persons in this world.

Jacky, your position is old enough and outdated enough these days to be considered fossil fuel. She lives in a country where 20,000 people died last year because they didn't have access to health care and where even the government admits 30,000,000 people are malnourished. You can talk all day long about how good she has it compared to the rest of the world, but your talk would make a lot more sense if it was being delivered in the 1950s than in 2009. Being 37th in the world for heath care might be alright for you, but it's really not acceptable to most of the American people.

Your point is that my views on capitalism is outdated, correct?

Incorrect. My point is the silly notion the American system should not be changed because "Americans have it so much better off than people in other countries" is bunk. In the 1950s, there might have been some reason to suppose the American system was much better than anything else around. But not today.

Typically, American workers today are experiencing a decreasing quality of life relative to the rest of the industrialize world and even relative to their own past. The evidence for that decreasing quality of life includes -- but is not limited to -- a relatively poor health system.

 

[Jackytar]

no, its FAR bigger....

10 times would be "ok" compared to what it is really like

Citation, please.

Jackytar

 

[Jackytar]

Incorrect. My point is the silly notion the American system should not be changed because "Americans have it so much better off than people in other countries" is bunk. In the 1950s, there might have been some reason to suppose the American system was much better than anything else around. But not today.

Typically, American workers today are experiencing a decreasing quality of life relative to the rest of the industrialize world and even relative to their own past. The evidence for that decreasing quality of life includes -- but is not limited to -- a relatively poor health system.

I think it's great that other nations are developing. As for your nostalgia economics here in the US, you need to expand your reading beyond Paul Krugman. And I agree that our health care system needs overhaul.

Jackytar

 

[Jackytar]

Originally Posted by Jackytar
No. I see overall prosperity as being more important than income disparity. We have a recession now, and the disparity will narrow dramatically as a result of the stock market correction


HOW?

I'll ask a second time

I'm too stupid to explain it to you.

Jackytar

 

[Mr Cheese]

Citation, please.

Jackytar

I already have...

get a grip

 

[Alceste]

I'm not making both arguments, because raising the minimum wage will not fix the problems that most families face. As I said, I can't get unskilled workers to work for anywhere near the minimum wage. I will also note that it is these workers that give us the most grief - not showing up for work, stealing from us, filing BS lawsuits, treating our customers poorly, poisoning the office culture. We have had exceptions and have paid them more and have given them more perks because they are valued employees that we want to keep. Our competitors actively try to recruit them.

We are a service business so employee costs are far and away the largest outlay of revenue. And we will have a slim profit margin if successful. Most businesses operate under these constraints. If I were to pay my employees more I will have to raise my prices or increase efficiency. That's how it works in any system.

And for the record, I am in favor of universal health care.

Jackytar

If you are paying your employees double the minimum wage already, a minimum wage increase will not affect your business. It might affect the business of your competitors who try to get by paying less than minimum wage though - the service industry has by far the highest number of employees earning at or below minumum wage.

So, for you personally, a minimum wage increase would be beneficial. Hard to see why you would be against it.

 

[Mr Cheese]

I'm too stupid to explain it to you.

Jackytar

Well we already knew that, why bring up the obvious?:flirt:

 

[Sunstone]

I think it's great that other nations are developing.

None so blind as those who refuse to see.

As for your nostalgia economics here in the US, you need to expand your reading beyond Paul Krugman.

For the record, Krugman is one source among several for me.

As for the snideness of your remark, I could just as snidely say of you that you need to expand your beliefs beyond the ideologically masturbatory novels of Ayn Rand and it would be just as true of you as what you've said of me. That is, not very.

And I agree that our health care system needs overhaul.

That's sane. But what do you think of the fact that worker's productivity has increased in recent years without any corresponding increase in worker's wages? Whether you want to admit it or not, that is the American system. It's what it has come to be. A system in which the rich get richer and the poor work harder.

 

[Jackytar]

If you are paying your employees double the minimum wage already, a minimum wage increase will not affect your business. It might affect the business of your competitors who try to get by paying less than minimum wage though - the service industry has by far the highest number of employees earning at or below minumum wage.

So, for you personally, a minimum wage increase would be beneficial. Hard to see why you would be against it.

I'm not against the minimum wage per se. I just don't think it's a good idea to legislate higher wages in general. And by "service industry" I mean we are not in manufacturing. I would NEVER own a restaurant. As for our competitors, they are in the same labor market as we are. Nobody is paying minimum wage. That's how the system works. You know, supply and demand. The price mechanism. All that outdated stuff.

Jackytar

 

[Jackytar]

As for the snideness of your remark...

You deserved it for being intentionally obtuse and then saying "Is that because you haven't any idea how to address my point?" when I have been nothing but forthright. Accusing me of straw man argument for no apparent reason and immediately launching into an ad hominem without the slightest hint of irony. All I seem to be getting from you and cheese and some of the others is bellyaching, name calling and vague notions of social justice but no actual reasoned alternative to capitalism. If you want to debate this issue then let's hear your side. I can be engaged by good civil argument. Shouting catcalls from the sidelines like Sean Hannity... not so much.

Jackytar

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Yes, you are motivated into action by self interest. But you do so begrudgingly because everything seems unfair to you. So you advocate for a system that rewards you equally for being less productive or, better yet, not productive at all.

I wasn't bragging about being less productive. It is a bad thing, because if I can't get it up, I get fired, and don't have insurance, which means I can't get the medical attention I need. And no, I do not advocate people being less productive. I've made peoples jobs very hard for it while I was a supervisor at my last job.

What you lack is a marketable skill. I suggest you get one while you are young and have no children or debt (please tell me you have no debt).

That is quite a judgement since you really don't know me. I really do have a few marketable skills, and I have just figured out which one to go to college for. As for debt, I have a car, and a house.

…the most striking thing about the settlers of Jamestown was their startling similarity to the ancient pioneers who built settlements in other parts of the world 5,000 years earlier. The whole panorama of Jamestown demonstreated how shockingly little progress had been made by man during the past 5,000 years.

I would have said man made backwards progress. The ancient Romans had roads that are still around today, plumbing, eye surgeries, and other medical procedures. The artist of the Renaissance produced not only great works of art, but also detailed understanding of human anatomy. Di Vinci even came up with ideas and concepts that are very modern to our own times.

If CEOs and other 1% actually earned less this would not be an issue....

Yes. Especially since those CEO's really don't earn the millions they do. It's such a shame that the workers who often work much harder than the CEO's, who also allowed for the CEO positions to exists, are paid so very little in comparison.

I'm not making both arguments, because raising the minimum wage will not fix the problems that most families face.

How will it not? Five dollars an hour was simply impossible to live off of, unless you was in high school and lived with your parents. Seven dollars an hour is possible to just make it, assuming you have no dependants, very little debt, and don't mind taking in poor quality goods and services. And then there is the ever present threat of a medical crisis, which can bankrupt an uninsured family who makes double minimum wage with ease.

It's not "10 times more".

Jackytar

No, it's not. It is far higher. The poverty line, last I knew, was 20-something thousand. That means that only $200,000 a year would be 10 times higher. And since plenty of the rich class make easily $500,000 on up a year, no citations are needed, but rather simple math.

I would NEVER own a restaurant. As for our competitors, they are in the same labor market as we are. Nobody is paying minimum wage. That's how the system works. You know, supply and demand. The price mechanism. All that outdated stuff.

My employer says they offer competitive wages, yet they are very uncompetitive compaired to the other distribution centers in the area, Wal Marts especially, which starts out it's workers 7 or 8 dollars more on the hour, and has a much higher wage cap. But yet Wal Mart and Dollar General both offer goods at a lower, more competitive price than other stores.

 

[Alceste]

I'm not against the minimum wage per se. I just don't think it's a good idea to legislate higher wages in general. And by "service industry" I mean we are not in manufacturing. I would NEVER own a restaurant. As for our competitors, they are in the same labor market as we are. Nobody is paying minimum wage. That's how the system works. You know, supply and demand. The price mechanism. All that outdated stuff.

Jackytar

Supply and demand doesn't guarantee a living wage. Many businesses survive and thrive on a model of paying far less than labour market rates and tolerating high staff turnover and employee apathy (even hostility).

Supposing you could get away with paying your employees twenty cents an hour, would you jump at the chance? Because any corporation whose primary concern is profit would. This is why privately owned jails are doing such booming business. Regulation is necessary in order to keep everybody honest.

"The free market can solve every problem" sounds great until you look closely at any particular problem. Arguments in favour of free market solutions to social problems require an extremely blinkered and selective use of cherry picked factoids, anecdotes and misleading statistics, and back their claims by pointing to hypothetical worlds that have never existed. Like the world in Ayn Rand's head, where multi-national corporate CEOs are all exceptional, intelligent, imaginative, deeply ethical, supremely efficient go-getters and people who pick garbage off railway tracks are all lazy and useless.

It takes a lot more imagination than I have at my disposal to believe this world is anything like that, especially after spending a lot of time with corporate CEOs. (They hire me to do their basic math for them.)

 

[Jackytar]

That is quite a judgement since you really don't know me. I really do have a few marketable skills, and I have just figured out which one to go to college for. As for debt, I have a car, and a house.

You took a manual labor job so I made the assumption. My apologies. I'm glad you are going to college.

How will it not?

You said it yourself. Even at double or triple the minimum wage you can easily get into a fix. Heck, some people get into financial binds on good salaries. Raising the mimimum wage does not solve these problems.

No, it's not. It is far higher. The poverty line, last I knew, was 20-something thousand. That means that only $200,000 a year would be 10 times higher. And since plenty of the rich class make easily $500,000 on up a year, no citations are needed, but rather simple math.

Cheese was making the unsupported claim that wage disparity for the top 1% has increased "way more" than 10 fold since the seventies.

My employer says they offer competitive wages, yet they are very uncompetitive compaired to the other distribution centers in the area, Wal Marts especially, which starts out it's workers 7 or 8 dollars more on the hour, and has a much higher wage cap. But yet Wal Mart and Dollar General both offer goods at a lower, more competitive price than other stores.

Why not go work for one of the others?

Jackytar

 

[Magic Man]

How have I missed this thread for so long?

OK, hard work is a virtue, but only to a degree. As with anything you have to be balanced. Working 80 hours a week is not a virtue, unless you have absolutely no choice to support your family.

I think it's good for kids to learn the value of hard work. That doesn't mean take away their childhood, though.

Of course, hard work isn't just about working at a job a lot of hours. It's about putting in a lot of effort for something meaningful. Hard work includes practicing guitar to get really good at it because you love it, or practicing painting, or running or exercising. It includes most hobbies, not just jobs.

Anyway, the hardcore capitalists that use "hard work is a virtue" to oppose socialism just don't actually understand socialism or the world in general.

 

[Mr Cheese]

Anyway, the hardcore capitalists that use "hard work is a virtue" to oppose socialism just don't actually understand socialism or the world in general.

indeed....

 

[Sunstone]

You deserved it for being intentionally obtuse...

I had no intention of being intentionally obtuse. But you just keep thinking your can read my mind and intentions, Jacky. You must be a psychic.

 

[Jackytar]

Supply and demand doesn't guarantee a living wage.

No, it doesn't. But guess what? It does it better than anything else. How do you guarantee a living wage - as you define it - for all? This is the central fault of socialism - that everybody should get a trophy just for showing up. That a person's successes and hard work does not belong to him. That by taking away incentives people will behave as if nothing has changed. That achievement is a cause for envy. That relative wealth is more important than actual wealth. That talent is unfair. What is it you want? A planned economy? You get money but nothing to buy. A mixed economy? Sure, I'll give you an inch. A social safety net with a close eye to keep incentives thriving. But for that to work we both need to pull on our respective ends of the rope. I won't ask you to let go if you don't. The other will fall down.

Many businesses survive and thrive on a model of paying far less than labour market rates and tolerating high staff turnover and employee apathy (even hostility). Have you never heard of Walmart?

I guess you get what you pay for.

Supposing you could get away with paying your employees twenty cents an hour, would you jump at the chance? Because Walmart would, as would any corporation whose primary concern is profit.

In a robust economy workers, especially skilled workers, are in short supply, and things in short supply are more expensive. Now, how do we create a robust economy? Hmmmm. Let's see...

This is why privately owned jails are doing such booming business.

Not sure how this follows, but seeing as you brought it up we need to abandon the war on drugs and stop putting people in jail for having a bad habit or for supplying that bad habit.

"The free market can solve every problem" sounds great until you look closely at any particular problem. Arguments in favour of free market solutions to social problems require an extremely blinkered and selective use of cherry picked factoids, anecdotes and misleading statistics, and back their claims by pointing to hypothetical worlds that have never existed.

Libertarians don't have the market cornered on bad reasoning. I'm still waiting for your "easily falsifiable assumptions". Let's hear them!

Like the world in Ayn Rand's head

I've never read Ayn Rand. I understand she was a bit mental.

Jackytar

 

[Jackytar]

Anyway, the hardcore capitalists that use "hard work is a virtue" to oppose socialism just don't actually understand socialism or the world in general.

I would be genuinely, profoundly, breathlessly interested in hearing your reasoning behind this statement. Declared beliefs without a reasoned foundation just aren't that compelling. Convince me! Please.

Jackytar