Is "hard work" a virtue?

[Kathryn]

By the way, here's my thoughts:

I recently took a very large paycut so that I could work 40 hours a week instead of 70. I haven't missed the money one bit because the time with my family, and the time to read and relax is definitely worth it.

So I'm not buying into the idea of working so hard that you sacrifice your quality time with your family or yourself in order to have more material toys. We sold our boat recently in order to build up our savings account. When I was working the killer job, we wouldn't have had to do that - but then we also wouldn't have had time to get out on the boat anyway.

That being said, my husband and I have a financial plan, which includes retirement in the next 15 years, and college for our son. I don't think that either of those goals is evil or unrealistic. Neither are either of them obtainable without us both working full time - and working pretty hard - for the next 10-15 years.

I guess we could sell all we have, live in a shack or a mobile home, scrounge up some sort of disability (Lord knows, my husband could do that - he's worked 30 years in the oilfield!), and get by on food stamps and government assistance, but then we'd be counting on the work of others to support us. That doesn't seem quite right to me. Someone has to pay our way.

So I guess I believe this: If you can cut back on your lifestyle and your material possessions so that you can work less TO SUPPORT YOURSELF AND YOUR FAMILY, I see no problem with that - none at all! In fact, GOOD FOR YOU (and me!). I would encourage anyone to do that if possible.

However, if cutting back on your work means that someone else is going to have to work harder so that you can work less - hey, that just isn't right.

 

[Mr Cheese]

No hard work is not a virtue, it's a necessity forced upon the great majority of humankind to survive, due to certain economic systems. With all the increases in productivity due to technological progress people should be working less hours for more in return, but in America over the last 30 years while productivity and GDP per capita have soared the median hourly wage for men has stagnated and the income of senior executives has increased massively.

People won't put up with this forever.

the average American CEO makes in one week more than the average worker makes in an entire year....

I think that's correct?

Or this website says:

This week's Snapshot previews data to be presented as part of the forthcoming The State of Working America 2006/07.
Snapshot for June 27, 2006.
CEO pay-to-minimum wage ratio soars
by Lawrence Mishel
In 2005, an average Chief Executive Officer (CEO) was paid 821 times as much as a minimum wage earner, who earns just $5.15 per hour. An average CEO earns more before lunchtime on the very first day of work in the year than a minimum wage worker earns all year.
The chart below shows the ratio of the average annual compensation of CEOs—including all bonuses, incentives, and so on*—to the annual compensation of a full-time, full-year minimum wage earner (assumed to receive an average amount of benefits).

CEO-Minimum Wage Ratio Soars

MUTHA HUBBARD!

This disparity of course illustrates the sheer lie of the american dream...
Of course this is based on minimum wage. But still we see the ridiculous nature of American economics for the workforce today.

People here scream, that people won't put up with it forever...
Well you know, that is why Walmart 9and all its NUMEROUS) off shoots exists...

The real face of America (and why the average worker earns peanuts):

 

[Mr Cheese]

However, if cutting back on your work means that someone else is going to have to work harder so that you can work less - hey, that just isn't right.

This is very true, every thing is connected...

To simply "drop out" of society, is largely a selfish act...

You could argue by participating in society you enable others to...
and so on in a never ending circle.

Which would mean simple "bowing out" of such things could be seen as selfishness.

However of course, with the economic disparity, the world drain on resources the issue is not clear cut
Simply doing what we want of course is arguably extremly childish, but homosapiens are a selfish bunch and we like to "do" what we like to do... without considering others around us.

 

[Jackytar]

Cheese - What business is it of yours how much somebody else makes?

Jackytar

 

[blackout]

The idea of cutting back on work is laughable.

3 and a half full time jobs here,
hardly keeps us afloat.

And we live REAL simple.
If my husband works anymore hours,
he will have to forgo sleep COMPLETELY.
And will probably drop dead.

Who will have to work harder for us then,
when I am maxed out with 3 younger children,
and no money for childcare, or the mortgage?

I sure as hell can't make the mortgage by myself.

Guess it'll be welfare for us.

Good plan.

Maybe pay people enough to live on in the first place. :sarcastic

 

[Mr Cheese]

Cheese - What business is it of yours how much somebody else makes?

Jackytar

You think its fair that a guy earns more in a work day than another earns in an entire year?

Get a grip....

It is this "economic difference" that created communism in the first place...

If you can't see what is wrong with how things are, well.....

scratch that, I already knew most americans are too stupid to actually see a problem with this issue even when given the facts, you simply illustrate my point.... you think one day you could be a CEO or your kids... so this "situation" is a good thing!

eeesh

Look at ultra violet...
You think this economic divide doesnt contribute to her life?

 

[Mr Cheese]

Maybe pay people enough to live on in the first place. :sarcastic

It'd be a "start"

 

[Jackytar]

Get a grip....

Actually, I don't ever expect to be a CEO. But I don't begrudge somebody else's success, as long as they come by it honestly. That's called sour grapes.

Reminds me of the reaction to the profits Exxon reported. Amounted to something like 10 or 11 percent of revenue at peak. And folks like you wanted them to "give it back". Never mind that they already paid over 40 percent of their net revenue in taxes. I'm sitting here thinking - they are able to deliver a gallon of refined crude from beneath the north sea to my gas tank for less than 3 bucks all expenses and taxes paid. The friggin' bottled water at the same gas station is more expensive than that by multiples. That's a god-damned economic miracle for me and for Ultra Violet. What do I care how much the CEO is making?

Besides - it's a publicly traded company. Any one of those whiners could get themselves a chunk of that action. That is, if they were willing to actually risk anything of their own.

Get a grip indeed. What is your grand plan, anyway?

Jackytar

 

[blackout]

Actually, I don't ever expect to be a CEO. But I don't begrudge somebody else's success, as long as they come by it honestly. That's called sour grapes.

Reminds me of the reaction to the profits Exxon reported. Amounted to something like 10 or 11 percent of revenue at peak. And folks like you wanted them to "give it back". Never mind that they already paid over 40 percent of their net revenue in taxes. I'm sitting here thinking - they are able to deliver a gallon of refined crude from beneath the north sea to my gas tank for less than 3 bucks all expenses and taxes paid. The friggin' bottled water at the same gas station is more expensive than that by multiples. That's a god-damned economic miracle for me and for Ultra Violet. What do I care how much the CEO is making?

Besides - it's a publicly traded company. Any one of those whiners could get themselves a chunk of that action. That is, if they were willing to actually risk anything of their own.

Get a grip indeed. What is your grand plan, anyway?

Jackytar

Well I was actually responding to this...

However, if cutting back on your work means that someone else is going to have to work harder so that you can work less - hey, that just isn't right.

however... if the CEO and top execs of a company have more than they need 10 times over....
and the low level employees cannot pay their basic bills...
there is a problem.

Without the hard work of all those low level employees...
the CEO's and upper execs. would have NOTHING.
Nothing.
And they ought not forget it.

 

[Jackytar]

Well I was actually responding to this...

Cheese mentioned your situation in his post, I was responding to him.

I'm not sure how you guys are going to divvy up the wealth. That CEO runs a private business, meaning, well, it's private. No different than your household finances. As long as everybody plays fair, it's not your business how much he makes. You realize that you have "10 times more" than most other persons in this world.

Somebody once said that democracy is the worst political system in the world - except for all the others. I think the same can be said about capitalism.

Jackytar

 

[blackout]

Cheese mentioned your situation in his post, I was responding to him.

I'm not sure how you guys are going to divvy up the wealth. That CEO runs a private business, meaning, well, it's private. No different than your household finances. As long as everybody plays fair, it's not your business how much he makes. You realize that you have "10 times more" than most other persons in this world.

Somebody once said that democracy is the worst political system in the world - except for all the others. I think the same can be said about capitalism.

Jackytar

Honestly, I don't give a rats behind how much the CEO makes.
I do however give a rats behind that low level employees
cannot support their families on a full time wage...
or even two or three full time wages.

I personally think it sucks that I have "10 times more"
than most other persons in this world.
I think it sucks that men women and children in china work for peanuts,
so we can have cheap stuff at "Wall"mart. (ie... made in china mart)

You cannot say to me though...
well cut your work hours and give up your standard of living
because then ME AND MY CHILDREN WILL HAVE NOWHERE TO LIVE.
Do you know how much an apartment for 6 people costs?
No less than my freiking mortgage.
They won't even ALLOW more than 2 per bedroom
in any approved apartment complex.
Should I just go and build myself a hut?
Or live in a shack?
Will the local ordinances approve that?

Shall we live without electricity? Water? Heat?
Would they take my children away from me for this?

No. They set the standard of living AND the wages...
and they do NOT MATCH UP. THIS is the problem.
Soon no one will be able to afford anything.
Then many CEO's will be out of a job as well.

~V~

 

[JamieA1A]

In other threads, advocates of free market capitalism have argued that the biggest danger of socialism or communism is that people in such a system might not work very hard.

Evidence from parts of Europe seems to support this - some countries have 35 hour work weeks and 22 days of holiday plus a regular allotment of statutory holidays, paid maternity and sick leave, free health care, etc. It's clear that Europeans don't work as hard as Americans do. Instead of they spend a great deal of time sipping beaujolais and sampling excellent cheeses while Americans bust their asses 24/7.

So is "hard work" a virtue? If so, why? Who first decided it was a virtue? Why do you think they did this?

Most importantly, who does it benefit most to train an entire nation of people to believe that working hard 24/7 is more important than sipping beaujolais and sampling excellent cheeses?

My father was a socialist and took pride in his ability to work hard both on and off the job. His motto was "Think work." Work to him was his "sport" and he usually won and out-worked others. I painted my house in two days over the weekend instead of doing the typical July 4th things and I feel great. :yes: Thanks dad!

 

[Jackytar]

Honestly, I don't give a rats behind how much the CEO makes.
I do however give a rats behind that low level employees
cannot support their families on a full time wage...
or even two or three full time wages.

I personally think it sucks that I have "10 times more"
than most other persons in this world.
I think it sucks that men women and children in china work for peanuts,
so we can have cheap stuff at "Wall"mart. (ie... made in china mart)

You cannot say to me though...
well cut your work hours and give up your standard of living
because then ME AND MY CHILDREN WILL HAVE NOWHERE TO LIVE.
Do you know how much an apartment for 6 people costs?
No less than my freiking mortgage.
They won't even ALLOW more than 2 per bedroom
in any approved apartment complex.
Should I just go and build myself a hut?
Or live in a shack?
Will the local ordinances approve that?

Shall we live without electricity? Water? Heat?
Would they take my children away from me for this?

No. They set the standard of living AND the wages...
and they do NOT MATCH UP. THIS is the problem.
Soon no one will be able to afford anything.
Then many CEO's will be out of a job as well.

~V~

All true and well said. Don't think me unsympathetic. I simply believe that capitalism - market economies or "spontaneous order" - is the best way to meet everybody's needs, and that it is a conceit or a delusion to believe you can improve on it.

I'm reminded of the ruckus created when some folks drove to the gulf shores after Katrina selling ice and water and other stuff for profit. I think at one point the police considered arresting them. Outrage abounded. I was thinking, okay... there is obviously a need for ice and water so if these guys were not filling that need then people would be without ice and water, I suppose. We could say, "They should have volunteered" but clearly there wasn't enough of that going on. No point it wishing this wasn't so. Or, "The government should be doing it". Well sure, but for whatever reason, they weren't. Why vilify the entrepreneurs? I don't get it.

Jackytar

 

[Quagmire]

All work is a necessary evil.

 

[Sunstone]

You realize that you have "10 times more" than most other persons in this world.

Jacky, your position is old enough and outdated enough these days to be considered fossil fuel. She lives in a country where 20,000 people died last year because they didn't have access to health care and where even the government admits 30,000,000 people are malnourished. You can talk all day long about how good she has it compared to the rest of the world, but your talk would make a lot more sense if it was being delivered in the 1950s than in 2009. Being 37th in the world for heath care might be alright for you, but it's really not acceptable to most of the American people.

 

[Joe_Stocks]

Hi Sunstone,

Jacky, your position is old enough and outdated enough these days to be considered fossil fuel. She lives in a country where 20,000 people died last year because they didn't have access to health care and where even the government admits 30,000,000 people are malnourished. You can talk all day long about how good she has it compared to the rest of the world, but your talk would make a lot more sense if it was being delivered in the 1950s than in 2009. Being 37th in the world for heath care might be alright for you, but it's really not acceptable to most of the American people.

Tell me you are not arguing that our health care transactions operate in a free market? Because that would be silly.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

What has "hard work" done for me?
-Many bruises, burns, and countless cuts that I often don't notice unless they bleed enough to smear blood on something.
-Arthritis in my knees, which will eventually need to be replaced, probably before I'm 40.
-A ton of extra work for nothing extra. If I'm going to do the work of 2 or 3 people, then at least give me some extra money for the soreness I will feel when I get home, and in the morning.
-Lack of appreciation (such as promotions)
-Lack of raises
-Quite often a lack of sleep
-Having to follow the dress code down to the last line, even though others who slack off don't have to just because they aren't seen by management as much.
-Working in temperatures well below freezing, several times below 0.

I took a job, that I can barely do physically, just to get insurance so that hopefully I'll be able to better enjoy the things I like to do. Bad thing is, my productivity is below standards.

Can you really see the midwest waking up to the fact they are being screwed?

Not really. Most Americans do not realize that what they have been spoon fed since childhood is not the only reality that exists. My fiance and I have even discussed the idea of moving away from America and it's system that is nothing more than an utter, miserable failure.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Not sure how socialism endows an individual with powers of foresight.

Not necessarily socialism, but any other perspective to see the massive flaws in our current capitalist system. Like an outsider looking in. A good number of Capitalist would say that hard work to earn more money to earn more materialistic things is a good way of life, but someone who is not Capitalist can see much easier that life can be easier, and much more enjoyable.

 

[Alceste]

Cheese mentioned your situation in his post, I was responding to him.

I'm not sure how you guys are going to divvy up the wealth.

Legislate a minimum wage that is high enough that it is possible for one person to survive with one full-time job, and implement a progressive tax that accommodates all the expenses of public services such as schools, hospitals, roads, parks, libraries, clean water, sewerage etc. without going into budget deficits.

When you pay employees at the bottom of the pay scale a living wage, there is less left over for the CEO to scoop up for his personal use, so income inequality is improved. In fact, it would be better for the market if the lowest income earners even had a little left over for investing and purchasing non-essential items.

 

[Alceste]

Here. If you read this (the full policy analysis), I'll watch your video.
Jackytar

Seriously? Before I bother to read any propaganda from a notorious free market PR outfit, tell me you honestly believe schools should be run for profit.

If you actually think this, and the paper represents your reasoning, I will skim it, but free market propaganda operates on a number of easily falsifiable assumptions and makes false claims of fact that make reading any "analysis" by right wing propagandists a tedious job. "The free market has a better solution than socialism for every problem" is a good example.