Is "hard work" a virtue?

[DallasApple]

All I know is I scrub toilets and Im rich.(by many standards)

Love

Dalllas

 

[Alceste]

I could say the same about socialists.

What do you think capitalists have that socialists might envy?

Now, do I sound contemptuous? Because you do.
Perhaps because you seem to have a cartoonish "Mr Burns" image of what a capitalist is.

You don't sound contemptuous - I was talking about the "get a job" people, relating that to what you were saying about your friends. You are aware of your feelings of envy, which is something the "get a job" people lack. IMO, that would prevent it from becoming contempt.

How do I sound contemptuous?

Personally, I admire tremendously non-material pursuits. I'm only asserting that the leisure to pursue such things would be more attainable with capitalist principles than with socialist ones. That capitalism creates more wealth with less effort. And by wealth I'm not thinking about piles of money (drool, drool), but basic goods and services.

If you mean capitalism as it is practiced by Denmark, the statistics seem to support your assertion. If you're talking about America, they don't. Americans produce less per capita than Danes and work much longer hours for less pay.

I would agree that socialists are more likely to live modest lifestyles. I don't think this is a causal relationship.

As someone who actually lives a modest lifestyle, I can assure you it is. At least in my case. All my decisions are influenced by my sense of ethics. I go for organic local food and 100 % green energy providers, walk, bike or take transit where I need to go, live in apartments that are just big enough for my needs and no bigger, and I don't have any interest in climbing a corporate ladder. In fact, my pattern for yeasr has been to work long enough to save up money to travel, then quit whatever job I'm at and go somewhere for months on end.

If I were not a socialist, I would behave very differently. I would value material gain over meaningful experience, and productivity over sustainability. My life would be spent in pursuit of those goals, just as it is now spent in pursuit of meaningful experience and sustainability.

Doom and gloom has always been just over the horizon. That's not to say that we don't have problems that need fixing. But as much as we seem to be lemmings headed over the cliff we do, eventually, see the cliff and make a course correction.

Jackytar

I've seen the cliff for two decades. Nobody is doing any correcting but for a few marginal lemmings, and our momentum at this stage is too great to prevent famine and the breakdown of civil order in most parts of the world. (Of course such things have never happened before, right? .)

 

[DallasApple]

O.K!! I admit it..Im RICH..My husband makes good money and Im the maid.

Bye..I have to go cook and clean..

Love

Dallas

 

[whereismynotecard]

Maybe if you end up in a car wreck you'll get assigned a surgeon who's watching South Park episodes and cracking jokes while he's half assed working on your broken body.

Probably. If you had ever been a patient at the hospital around here, you'd expect such a sergeon.

 

[Jackytar]

What do you think capitalists have that socialists might envy?

Their tax dollars, of course.

How do I sound contemptuous?

Aw, c'mon. The whole "Pavlovian response" thing.

If you mean capitalism as it is practiced by Denmark, the statistics seem to support your assertion. If you're talking about America, they don't. Americans produce less per capita than Danes and work much longer hours for less pay.

They are both mixed economies and this is not a static condition in any event. For one thing, the Danes are currently oil exporters.

If I were not a socialist, I would behave very differently. I would value material gain over meaningful experience, and productivity over sustainability. My life would be spent in pursuit of those goals, just as it is now spent in pursuit of meaningful experience and sustainability.

I'm a capitalist and believe very strongly in sustainability. And I am repulsed by raw greed and materialistic lifestyles. Explain why I can't be all of those things at once.

I've seen the cliff for two decades. Nobody is doing any correcting but for a few marginal lemmings, and our momentum at this stage is too great to prevent famine and the breakdown of civil order in most parts of the world. (Of course such things have never happened before, right? .)

I disagree but not germane to the OP in any case. Not sure how socialism endows an individual with powers of foresight.

Jackytar

 

[Alceste]

Their tax dollars, of course.

Why would a socialist want a capitalist's tax dollars? Are right wing dollars somehow superior to the dollars of the left?

There's nothing to envy when you are genuinely not motivated by material gain beyond what is necessary for a satisfying quality of life. That was my point.

Aw, c'mon. The whole "Pavlovian response" thing.

Are you saying you don't have contempt for people whose immediate response to the sight of any form of social activism is "Get a job"? Really? How is that different from a dog who drools when he hears a bell? I'd love to believe there's some serious thinking that goes into that particular stock response, but I'm too attached to reality.

I'm a capitalist and believe very strongly in sustainability. And I am repulsed by raw greed and materialistic lifestyles. Explain why I can't be all of those things at once.

I guess that depends whether you are a capitalist who believes in a growth based economy. If so, no you cannot be both. Exponential growth requires exponentially increasing consumption of raw materials and exponential population growth to ensure the raw materials are consumed.

I disagree but not germane to the OP in any case. Not sure how socialism endows an individual with powers of foresight.

Jackytar

Foresight endows an individual with the appreciation of the concept of socialism, among other things.

 

[TurkeyOnRye]

In other threads, advocates of free market capitalism have argued that the biggest danger of socialism or communism is that people in such a system might not work very hard.

Evidence from parts of Europe seems to support this - some countries have 35 hour work weeks and 22 days of holiday plus a regular allotment of statutory holidays, paid maternity and sick leave, free health care, etc. It's clear that Europeans don't work as hard as Americans do. Instead of they spend a great deal of time sipping beaujolais and sampling excellent cheeses while Americans bust their asses 24/7.

So is "hard work" a virtue? If so, why? Who first decided it was a virtue? Why do you think they did this?

Most importantly, who does it benefit most to train an entire nation of people to believe that working hard 24/7 is more important than sipping beaujolais and sampling excellent cheeses?

Hard work is not necessarily virtuous, it's just hard work. It depends entirely on the context. Some people may work very hard on things that have destructive ends. Or work very hard in changing things that don't need to be changed. If anxiety, tiresomeness and bitterness are the secondary fruits of hard labor, I'd say there's zero virtue in it. And if the work is destructive (which is the case in the now largely industrialized/westernized world), then not only is it not virtuous, it's deplorable.

What's wrong with 35 hour work weeks, holiday leave and great healthcare while simultaneously enjoying adequate personal time? It doesn't sound like laziness to me, it just sounds like intelligent economic/social planning, something Americans are probably envious of. In my opinion, some Americans like to label themselves as hard workers (and sometimes other countries as lazy) in an unconscious attempt to justify their strenuous and likely involuntary decision to live a life of hard toil that lacks adequate compensation despite the fact that they know on some level that so much work is actually pointless because they know that other countries work less yet see more perks (this is the bitterness I speak of). So, one could say that the justification of hard work from the American perspective is simply to be able to call yourself "a hard American worker" based on a presumption that hard work is virtuous. Insane.

Some people will always be working less or more, if you make comparisons. A good question to ask is this: is my personal and professional life balanced and in harmony with life in general? In the case of Americans, and indeed most everyone in the western world, I'm afraid the answer is "no".

 

[Jackytar]

Why would a socialist want a capitalist's tax dollars? Are right wing dollars somehow superior to the dollars of the left?

Well yes. Those dollars on the left have to come from somewhere...

Are you saying you don't have contempt for people whose immediate response to the sight of any form of social activism is "Get a job"? Really? How is that different from a dog who drools when he hears a bell? I'd love to believe there's some serious thinking that goes into that particular stock response, but I'm too attached to reality.

Not so attached that you don't have prejudices of your own. An intellectual appreciation for market economies doesn't make you an ******* who shouts at protesters. That's called being a Republican.

I guess that depends whether you are a capitalist who believes in a growth based economy. If so, no you cannot be both. Exponential growth requires exponentially increasing consumption of raw materials and exponential population growth to ensure the raw materials are consumed.

Economic growth could also mean creative destruction, where capital flows to higher tech industries and services.

Foresight endows an individual with the appreciation of the concept of socialism, among other things.

So, when am I going to die?

Jackytar

 

[Alceste]

Well yes. Those dollars on the left have to come from somewhere...

Yeah, because socialists don't have jobs.

Not so attached that you don't have prejudices of your own. An intellectual appreciation for market economies doesn't make you an ******* who shouts at protesters. That's called being a Republican.

I didn't say it did. My comment was about the people who respond in that way. I'm sure if you take another look, you'll see that.

Economic growth could also mean creative destruction, where capital flows to higher tech industries and services.

High tech industries also devour raw materials and massive amounts of energy. So I still say no, you can't favour exponential growth AND sustainability. It's a fantasy. Have a look at this for a more in-depth explanation of the inevitable consequences of exponential growth:

YouTube - The Most IMPORTANT Video You'll Ever See (part 1 of 8)

So, when am I going to die?

At the end of your life. See? Easy.

 

[Mr Cheese]

As someone who actually lives a modest lifestyle, I can assure you it is. At least in my case. All my decisions are influenced by my sense of ethics. I go for organic local food and 100 % green energy providers, walk, bike or take transit where I need to go, live in apartments that are just big enough for my needs and no bigger, and I don't have any interest in climbing a corporate ladder. In fact, my pattern for yeasr has been to work long enough to save up money to travel, then quit whatever job I'm at and go somewhere for months on end.

If I were not a socialist, I would behave very differently. I would value material gain over meaningful experience, and productivity over sustainability. My life would be spent in pursuit of those goals, just as it is now spent in pursuit of meaningful experience and sustainability.

You sound like a hairy hippy!

But seriously...congrats...if only more people had similar values.

In the end life catches us up...

"When you're younger you can eat what you like, drink what you like, and still climb into your 26" waist trousers and zip them closed. Then you reach that age, 24-25, your muscles give up, they wave a little white flag, and without any warning at all you're suddenly a fat *******"

---Arnold Judas Rimmer

 

[Alceste]

You sound like a hairy hippy!

But seriously...congrats...if only more people had similar values.

In the end life catches us up...

"When you're younger you can eat what you like, drink what you like, and still climb into your 26" waist trousers and zip them closed. Then you reach that age, 24-25, your muscles give up, they wave a little white flag, and without any warning at all you're suddenly a fat *******"

---Arnold Judas Rimmer

I'm 34, and versatile. I've had a huge diversity of jobs - session host in a pub in Ireland, stage managing music festivals, grip on a Jackie Chan movie... Only now am I planning to hippy out in a major way. I tried civilization, it didn't do anything for me.

I don't see "life" (by which I assume you mean a mortgage and a permanent job to pay it) catching up with me. My values are too integrated into my world view.

 

[Jackytar]

At the end of your life. See? Easy.

Nevermind. After watching your video I'm going to kill myself...

Seriously - I watched less than a minute of the video, to the point where I saw it was about exponential functions. I'm familiar with this line of thought and... that is a long video! And one part of several.

I'll make two simple points. First of all, the future will be a surprise. Doom and gloomers sell books by first of all pretending as if they are the only ones who can spot trends and secondly warn us that because of this the trends can be extrapolated to a logical, certain and tragic conclusion. Such discussions are valid but nobody has a lock on the future. I can only encourage you to place some faith in the human race. Yes it's true that it takes a while for paradigm shifts to trickle down to John Q Citizen but history has shown us that truth ultimately prevails. It's messy, untimely and not optimal but it works. The overall state of the world is improving. Global warming is a huge phuque up. Socialists want to blame capitalists but the truth is for over a century nobody seen it coming and extreme socialist states have environmental records as bad or worse as anybody else.

Secondly, for every problem there is a market economy solution that is better than the socialst one. Let's take global warming as an example. If we identify carbon emmissions as a pollutant then under free market principles releasing carbon into the atmosphere would be considered an assualt by one person apon another and they should, at the very least, be fined. This is why I personally support a hefty tax on oil and coal use. When the true costs of using polluting technologies are built into those activities the market will respond appropriately. The use will decline and alternative clean energy soulutions will emerge. Free market libertarians like myself do not care if this results in more expensive energy costs and economic slowdown. Capitalism does not defend the right of one person to harm another. Period. If it does, it's not capitalism. It's something else. Perhaps cronyism. A feature of government.

The socialist solution is to impose ones world view on others. Individual liberty be damned. History has shown time and again that this does not work. Think war on drugs as a simple example. The ban on gay marriage in California can only be described as a socialist event. (Sorry about the American centric POV here.) As to global warming, the socialists in Washington has favored ethanol as a solution. I'm not sure how familiar you are with ethanol but is is anything but carbon neutral. You get 1.3 units of energy for every 1 unit of fossil fuel you put in. It is a losing technology that is succeeding with Federal subsidies and has created all sorts of unintending consequences, such as the stripping of rain forests in Brazil. link

Back to the OP, I'll make another simple point that I made in another thread recently. At any given time in history under any form of government money and power has concentrated into the hands of the few. The problem is clearly government itself.

Jackytar

 

[Mr Cheese]

I'm 34, and versatile. I've had a huge diversity of jobs - session host in a pub in Ireland, stage managing music festivals, grip on a Jackie Chan movie... Only now am I planning to hippy out in a major way. I tried civilization, it didn't do anything for me.

I don't see "life" (by which I assume you mean a mortgage and a permanent job to pay it) catching up with me. My values are too integrated into my world view.

Well the true way to change things is from within, not without....

but good for you....

I often think I'd like to drop out... I could never be bothered.

I'm 34, I'm just getting my first mortgage.... ha ha
I've decided running away from life was too much effort
I've changed continents in the past decade, thats enough...

I'd mention Saturn's return, but I don't think thats soemthign you believe in


I'm doing a leonard Cohen

They sentenced me to twenty years of boredom
For trying to change the system from within
I'm coming now, I'm coming to reward them
First we take Manhattan, then we take Berlin
.....

I guess I might have sold out!:no:

I think my spiritual aspirations have just led me along this path, not someethign you share, I understand.

Change is inevitable
Growth is optional
Choose Wisely

Good luck to you.....
I come from a long line of Commies, Pinkos, Anarchists (original 20's, not the punk kind) and free thinkers.... so I can relate to your politics anyway...

 

[Mr Cheese]

Secondly, for every problem there is a market economy solution that is better than the socialst one.
Jackytar

There are problems in every system
Pretending one is superior to the other and thus negates the other
is piffle....

there is always the X factor....

in this case, human GREED and other similar factors

in your missive you are dealing with perfect conditions, these never exist.

 

[Mr Cheese]

At any given time in history under any form of government money and power has concentrated into the hands of the few. The problem is clearly government itself.

:clap we agree on somethings

 

[Alceste]

Nevermind. After watching your video I'm going to kill myself...

Seriously - I watched less than a minute of the video, to the point where I saw it was about exponential functions.
I'll make two simple points. First of all, the future will be a surprise.

Ha - it certainly will for those of us who can't watch more than a minute of video about the inevitable consequences exponential growth.

Socialists want to blame capitalists but the truth is for over a century nobody seen it coming...

Your fact is incorrect.

...and extreme socialist states have environmental records as bad or worse as anybody else.

When has there ever been a socialist state, let alone an "extreme" one?

Secondly, for every problem there is a market economy solution that is better than the socialst one.

Riiiiiiiight. So, schools would be better if they were exclusively run for personal profit rather than the altruistic motive of using pooled resources to provide a service to everyone? You'd prefer if no child got an education unless they could pay a tuition fee?

Let's take global warming as an example. If we identify carbon emmissions as a pollutant then under free market principles releasing carbon into the atmosphere would be considered an assualt by one person apon another and they should, at the very least, be fined.

By who, if there is a free market solution better than any socialist solution, who will do the fining? A for-profit corporation? Government itself is a socialist concept - pooling our resources for services that benefit all of us.

The socialist solution is to impose ones world view on others. Individual liberty be damned.

Ridiculous. You're talking about communism - Stalinism or Maoism, not socialism. There's no reason a person can't be both a libertarian and a socialist, like myself. This means I believe people should be persuaded, not coerced, to pool their resources for the benefit of everyone.

The left doesn't have a monopoly on coercive policy, as your own country, which is very right wing by global standards, demonstrates more than adequately.

At any given time in history under any form of government money and power has concentrated into the hands of the few. The problem is clearly government itself.

Jackytar

Agreed. I'm an anarchist too.

 

[Jackytar]

Riiiiiiiight. So, schools would be better if they were exclusively run for personal profit rather than the altruistic motive of using pooled resources to provide a service to everyone? You'd prefer if no child got an education unless they could pay a tuition fee?

Here. If you read this (the full policy analysis), I'll watch your video.

Government itself is a socialist concept - pooling our resources for services that benefit all of us.?

I'm not an anarchist.

There's no reason a person can't be both a libertarian and a socialist, like myself. This means I believe people should be persuaded, not coerced, to pool their resources for the benefit of everyone.

Good luck with that argument during your tax evasion trial.

The left doesn't have a monopoly on coercive policy, as your own country, which is very right wing by global standards, demonstrates more than adequately.

Libertarians are neither left or right. We are "up". link

Agreed. I'm an anarchist too.

Cheese got it right - you're a hippy.

Hippy!:run:

Jackytar

 

[Shahzad]

No hard work is not a virtue, it's a necessity forced upon the great majority of humankind to survive, due to certain economic systems. With all the increases in productivity due to technological progress people should be working less hours for more in return, but in America over the last 30 years while productivity and GDP per capita have soared the median hourly wage for men has stagnated and the income of senior executives has increased massively.

People won't put up with this forever.

 

[dgray]

Perhaps the connection between action and prayer is a reason why hard work could be considered a virtue? Shoghi Effendi, the Guardian of the Baha'i Faith, wrote: “It is not sufficient to pray diligently for guidance, but this prayer must be followed by meditation as to the best methods of action and then action itself. Even if the action should not immediately produce results, or perhaps not be entirely correct, that does
not make so much difference, because prayers can only be answered through action and if someone’s action is wrong, God can use that method of showing the pathway which is right.”

 

[Kathryn]

Excellence of Self (ie virtue) has never risen in me via "hard work".

It has always come through Creative Persistence and enjoyment of Life and Self,
in each moment and activity.

Creative Persistence to me... is not "hard work".
It is more a "work of art".

And a way of life.

I'm sorry, Ultra, but I have to ask you this question - do you have a full time job outside the home - one that delivers a regular paycheck and benefits?

It doesn't matter to me whether or not you do, because that's totally your business and your right to work full time or NOT work full time. I'm just curious.