Is "hard work" a virtue?

[Alceste]

No, hard work is not a virtue, nor do I think it's natural. The animal side of humanity wants to just sit around, bask in the sun and generally just relax. Work is done for food and shelter and only for what is needed.

Totally agree. I'd be happy to work 2 hours a day to survive even if it meant I had to do without all the trappings and frivolities of modern life. In fact, I have been putting some serious thought into bailing out of the rat race to live in a shack in the woods. Early planning stages, however.

 

[blackout]

But the "practice" of playing, should be as effortless as possible from the start.

Standard, traditional music lessons do nothing but make the process painful... and hard.
It is so backwards.

There are however alternative ways of learning.
As a teacher of music, I have devoted many years of creative experimentation to this end,
and succeded masterfully. At least as the piano/keyboard is concerned.

Even callouses on guitar can be developed somewhat "gently",
by playing for less time, but with greater frequency.
If you're cramping, you most likely need to change the angle of your arm,
or your guitar.
If there is too much pressure for your strength,
it may be a sign that you need an instrument better suited to you as well.

There should never be cramping on the piano.
Only "hard work" causes cramping.

 

[Jackytar]

I believe that hard work is a virtue, but it has to be tied to personal accomplishment. Working hard towards a personal achievement is very rewarding. Working hard and achieving little or nothing personal is not. Capitalism is more in line with the former. Socialism is more in line with the latter.

Note that "personal achievement" doesn't necessarily equate with direct personal benefit. I could work hard to fill sandbags to protect a neighboring community from flood. As long as this is a goal that I feel is important I will feel personally rewarded for accomplishing it, even without direct benefit.

And if you want more leisure time you simply have to make it a priority. I have two very good friends who have modest incomes and live a very leisurely and happy life. One lives in a trailer off the grid in Oregon. He's currently off somewhere with his daughter camping and dirt biking for the entire summer. Another friend and his wife spend a lot of their time travelling and value physical activity (exercising) above all else. They recently spent six months visiting her family in Africa. They have very little "stuff" but I envy the crap out of them.

Politically they would both fall to the socialist end of the spectrum. But I would argue that it is capitalism that permits their lifestyle. For example, in the US on average we each use enough energy to equal the labor output of about 140 strong men, both in our homes and in the goods and services we consume. This has been the main contributor to per capita increased economic output (efficiency) for over a century, more recently joined by the rapidly advancing IT infrastructure (which, incidentally, requires gobs of energy). Cheap energy and computer power and networks are the result of free market forces, not government planning. Just think about what goes into producing a gallon of gasoline and whether 3 bucks seems unreasonable.

Moreover, it seems to escape most individuals that historically we live in plentiful times. Most (certainly not all) of us could do with a whole lot less and have much more leisure time. It helps to remind oneself that a Chinese Emperor just over a century ago cooled his water with ice cubes that were relayed by servants on horseback from the distant mountains.

Jackytar

 

[Alceste]

I believe that hard work is a virtue, but it has to be tied to personal accomplishment. Working hard towards a personal achievement is very rewarding. Working hard and achieving little or nothing personal is not. Capitalism is more in line with the former. Socialism is more in line with the latter.

Note that "personal achievement" doesn't necessarily equate with direct personal benefit. I could work hard to fill sandbags to protect a neighboring community from flood. As long as this is a goal that I feel is important I will feel personally rewarded for accomplishing it, even without direct benefit.

I'm not sure I agree with you there. I have observed that among the most vocal supporters of free market capitalism, the Pavlovian response to any form of activism, from chaining oneself to trees to prevent deforestation to simply writing blog posts about global warming, is "Get a job".

Because of this, it would seem to me that the advocates of capitalism don't consider unselfish work to be virtuous. Maybe sandbags to save a town from flooding might qualify (after all, you can picture a cowboy doing it, so it must be OK), but a letter writing campaign to save an endangered species appears to be valueless to most capitalists.

I have two very good friends who have modest incomes and live a very leisurely and happy life.

They have very little "stuff" but I envy the crap out of them.

Politically they would both fall to the socialist end of the spectrum.

You've hit upon something I think. Both your friends who are happier working less for a higher quality of life (I mean real quality, like ethical satisfaction and meaningful experience rather bigger houses and more expensive cars) are socialists and you envy them.

I suspect your feelings are common among people who value hard work primarily when the motive is selfish material gain. Envy breeds contempt.

But I would argue that it is capitalism that permits their lifestyle.

Interesting.

For example, in the US on average we each use enough energy to equal the labor output of about 140 strong men, both in our homes and in the goods and services we consume. This has been the main contributor to economic output (efficiency) for over a century, more recently joined by the rapidly advancing IT infrastructure (which, incidentally, requires gobs of energy). Cheap energy and computer power and networks are the result of free market forces, not government planning. Just think about what goes into producing a gallon of gasoline and whether 3 bucks seems unreasonable.

I would argue we would have been better off without the discovery of cheap energy, since things are going to get progressively more difficult for most people as supplies continue to decline. World-wide famine is just over the horizon. I think we would have been much better off with a zero growth economic model and permaculture communities, but at this point we won't get there without some major discomfort.

Moreover, it seems to escape most individuals that historically we live in plentiful times. Most (certainly not all) of us could do with a whole lot less and have much more leisure time. It helps to remind oneself that a Chinese Emperor just over a century ago cooled his water with ice cubes that were relayed by servants on horseback from the distant mountains.

Doesn't escape me. I just think it's bad. I'd be happier riding out to the mountains for my ice.

 

[Alceste]

But the "practice" of playing, should be as effortless as possible from the start.

Standard, traditional music lessons do nothing but make the process painful... and hard.
It is so backwards.

There are however alternative ways of learning.
As a teacher of music, I have devoted many years of creative experimentation to this end,
and succeded masterfully. At least as the piano/keyboard is concerned.

Even callouses on guitar can be developed somewhat "gently",
by playing for less time, but with greater frequency.
If you're cramping, you most likely need to change the angle of your arm,
or your guitar.
If there is too much pressure for your strength,
it may be a sign that you need an instrument better suited to you as well.

There should never be cramping on the piano.
Only "hard work" causes cramping.

I agree somewhat, but I come by my aches and pains honestly. I play in pubs at gigs or sessions with a few pints and a bunch of friends. I also tend to go for hours and hours at a stretch (especially on St Paddys day - $$$$), sometimes for days if there's a festival on. Fiddle's no problem, but for the occasional kink in the neck, but there's just no way to play streel-string guitar for 5 hours straight without ending up with sore fingertips and a bit of stiffness in all those little muscles. And piano, well, that's nothing! Ha!

 

[Mr Cheese]

So, if you are a typical US worker, your productivity has increased, but you have not seen any increase in your standard of living from it. In short, you've been screwed.

America is essentially a right wing society

It will always "screw" the poor...

Either wake up to that reality, moan and ******* about it

Or Get on with it...

 

[Sunstone]

The animal side of humanity...

That's backwards. It's the animal side of humans that wants to work all the time and it's the spiritual side that wants to sit around and contemplate higher things than work. People who work hard are giving into their basest desires.



(Just kidding -- I don't even believe in such things as "an animal side and a spiritual side of humanity")

 

[Mr Cheese]

Hard work is a virtue
Expecting a reward for it is selfish...

As a sociologcal question of course, and being a cheese eating european
Capitalism and socialism are all subject to human selfishness. As a result, no matter the system, someone will be screwed. However one only has to examine the capitalist system, it rewards the rich, and screws the poor. Americans live their lives trying to become rich so they can screw the poor , essentially. That is the american dream, "success."

At least that is one view

...........

There is none dwelling in the house but God.
When a man is awakened he
melts and perishes.

—Mevlana Jalaluddin Rumi

The time of action does not differ at all from my time of prayer; I possess God as tranquilly in the bustle of my kitchen –where sometimes several people are asking me different things at one time—as if I was on my knees before the blessed sacrament…It is not necessary to have great things to do. I turn my little omelet in the pan for the love of God; when it is finished, if I have nothing to do, I prostrate myself on the ground and adore my God, who gave me the grace to make it, after which I rise, more content than a King. When I cannot do anything else, it is enough for me to have lifted a straw from the earth for the love of God.


–Brother Lawrence

 

[Sunstone]

America is essentially a right wing society

It will always "screw" the poor...

Either wake up to that reality, moan and beeatch about it

Or Get on with it...

I suppose you're too cynical to work for change?

 

[Alceste]

America is essentially a right wing society

Founded on left wing principles.

That shows things can change. People changed it into what it is today, and people can change it into something else.

 

[Panda]

Hard Work? What is this funny concept I've never heard of that?

Now if you'll excuse me I'm off to the pub to have a few drinks and play pool.

 

[Mr Cheese]

I suppose you're too cynical to work for change?

Change?

Well I voted for Obama, that is a start
but yeah, you'd have to change the very fabric of soceity, what makes americans americans....

That aint gonna happen in my life time....

But that is why one is to be in the world, but not of it.

 

[Wandered Off]

However one only has to examine the capitalist system, it rewards the rich, and screws the poor.

Maybe true for some, but the system *can* allow poor people to become rich - or more rich than they could under other systems.

 

[Sunstone]

Now if you'll excuse me I'm off to the pub to have a few drinks and play pool.

Getting off to a late start today?

 

[Sunstone]

Maybe true for some, but the system *can* allow poor people to become rich - or more rich than they could under other systems.

That's true enough -- except for the implication (perhaps unintentional) that the American system is better for most people than other systems. That remains to be demonstrated, methinks.

 

[Mr Cheese]

Founded on left wing principles.

That shows things can change. People changed it into what it is today, and people can change it into something else.

Well it aint gonna happen any time soon

Americans like their money,
they also like saying, as you say "Get a job"

I prefer cheese :cigar:

.....
There was once a small boy who banged a drum all day and loved every moment of it. He would not be quiet, no matter what anyone else said or did. Various people who called themselves Sufis, and other well-wishers, were called in by neighbors and asked to do something about the child.

The first so-called Sufi told the boy that he would, if he continued to make so much noise, perforate his eardrums; this reasoning was too advanced for the child, who was neither a scientist nor a scholar. The second told him that drum beating was a sacred activity and should be carried out only on special occasions. The third offered the neighbors plugs for their ears; the fourth gave the boy a book; the fifth gave the neighbors books that described a method of controlling anger through biofeedback; the sixth gave the boy meditation exercises to make him placid and explained that all reality was imagination. Like all placebos, each of these remedies worked for a short while, but none worked for very long.

Eventually, a real Sufi came along. He looked at the situation, handed the boy a hammer and chisel, and said, “I wonder what is INSIDE the drum?”

 

[Alceste]

Change?

Well I voted for Obama, that is a start
but yeah, you'd have to change the very fabric of soceity, what makes americans americans....

That aint gonna happen in my life time....

But that is why one is to be in the world, but not of it.

One can be in the world and not of it, and still be aware of what's going on in the world. Change is inevitable. What matters is who is directing it. In America, it is directed by the ridiculously wealthy for their own benefit.

Their main weakness is their delusion of stability. They believe that if you control the means of production you can continually increase the pressure on a workforce to produce more in exchange for less, and if a few trivial distractions are provided the workforce will never rebel and chop their heads off.

They should read some history and disabuse themselves of this fantasy before it is too late.

 

[Jackytar]

Envy breeds contempt.

I could say the same about socialists.
Now, do I sound contemptuous? Because you do.
Perhaps because you seem to have a cartoonish "Mr Burns" image of what a capitalist is.

Personally, I admire tremendously non-material pursuits. I'm only asserting that the leisure to pursue such things would be more attainable with capitalist principles than with socialist ones. That capitalism creates more wealth with less effort. And by wealth I'm not thinking about piles of money (drool, drool), but basic goods and services.

I would agree that socialists are more likely to live modest lifestyles. I don't think this is a causal relationship.

I would argue we would have been better off without the discovery of cheap energy, since things are going to get progressively more difficult for most people as supplies continue to decline. World-wide famine is just over the horizon.

Doom and gloom has always been just over the horizon. That's not to say that we don't have problems that need fixing. But as much as we seem to be lemmings headed over the cliff we do, eventually, see the cliff and make a course correction.

Jackytar

 

[Mr Cheese]

Maybe true for some, but the system *can* allow poor people to become rich - or more rich than they could under other systems.

Thats the american lie....

yes there are exceptions...

but for the vast majority, you're screwed

Why do you think women have a glass ceiling for example...

 

[Mr Cheese]

One can be in the world and not of it, and still be aware of what's going on in the world. Change is inevitable. What matters is who is directing it. In America, it is directed by the ridiculously wealthy for their own benefit.

Their main weakness is their delusion of stability. They believe that if you control the means of production you can continually increase the pressure on a workforce to produce more in exchange for less, and if a few trivial distractions are provided the workforce will never rebel and chop their heads off.

They should read some history and disabuse themselves of this fantasy before it is too late.

come the revolution....

americans are too stupid and lazy for revolution....

Can you really see the midwest waking up to the fact they are being screwed?