I for one have never heard any "calling" from God. I would think that an almighty deity would be capable of getting His point across; wouldn't you?
How exactly could an omnipotent God try to do something and fail?
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Is hell fair?
- Thread starter Francine
- Start date
I for one have never heard any "calling" from God. I would think that an almighty deity would be capable of getting His point across; wouldn't you?
How exactly could an omnipotent God try to do something and fail?
Francine
Well-Known Member
He could try to offer salvation and be rejected.
crystalonyx
Well-Known Member
If a supposed god set up the rules, it's his fault.
In my case, I can safely say that no offer was ever made... no noticeable one, anyhow. It's not even a question of an offer being rejected; in my mind, no offer was made at all.
And I've never had any trouble in recognizing offers in other regards... for example, I recently received (and rejected) offers to buy new windows AND to switch telephone providers. Doesn't God have a greater "offering" ability than a telemarketer?
Francine
Well-Known Member
He does, but the instant an offer becomes irresistable, it goes from the realm of a transaction between free agents to something more like what Don Vito Corleone does when he goes around with Luca Brasi.
So should I expect a horse's head in my bed, or will I have someone tell me that either my signature or my brains will be on the affadavit saying that I converted? If it's the first, I'll put the old sheets on right now.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
No, hell is not fair, nor is it just.
Azakel
Liebe ist für alle da
Which is a bunch of crap, any God that makes a place like hell or the Lake of Fire or what every you wan to call it and then lets people "make themselves" go there to burn forever is not a God that should people Warship at all.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
I strongly agree to this. I do not see how we make ourselves go there, when God is the one who casts people into Hell.
Scott C.
Just one guy
This is a great chapter from the Book of Mormon on the justice and mercy of God. Take some time and read it through (Alma 42):
Mortality is a probationary time to enable man to repent and serve God—The fall brought temporal and spiritual death upon all mankind—Redemption comes through repentance—God himself atoneth for the sins of the world—Mercy is for those who repent—All others are subject to God’s justice—Mercy cometh because of the atonement—Only the truly penitent are saved. About 73 B.C.
1 And now, my son, I perceive there is somewhat more which doth worry your mind, which ye cannot understand—which is concerning the ajustice of God in the bpunishment of the sinner; for ye do try to suppose that it is cinjustice that the sinner should be consigned to a state of misery.
2 Now behold, my son, I will explain this thing unto thee. For behold, after the Lord God sent our first parents forth from the garden of aEden, to till the bground, from whence they were taken—yea, he drew out the man, and he placed at the east end of the garden of Eden, ccherubim, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the tree of life—
3 Now, we see that the man had become as God, knowing good and evil; and lest he should put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat and live forever, the Lord God placed acherubim and the flaming sword, that he should not partake of the fruit—
4 And thus we see, that there was a atime granted unto man to repent, yea, a bprobationary time, a time to repent and serve God.
5 For behold, if Adam had put forth his hand immediately, and apartaken of the btree of life, he would have lived forever, according to the word of God, having no space for repentance; yea, and also the word of God would have been void, and the great plan of salvation would have been frustrated.
6 But behold, it was appointed unto man to adie—therefore, as they were cut off from the tree of life they should be cut off from the face of the earth—and man became blost forever, yea, they became cfallen man.
7 And now, ye see by this that our first parents were acut off both temporally and spiritually from the bpresence of the Lord; and thus we see they became subjects to follow after their own cwill.
8 Now behold, it was not expedient that man should be reclaimed from this atemporal death, for that would destroy the great bplan of happiness.
9 Therefore, as the soul could never die, and the afall had brought upon all mankind a spiritual bdeath as well as a temporal, that is, they were cut off from the presence of the Lord, it was expedient that mankind should be reclaimed from this spiritual death.
10 Therefore, as they had become acarnal, sensual, and devilish, by bnature, this cprobationary state became a state for them to prepare; it became a preparatory state.
11 And now remember, my son, if it were not for the plan of redemption, (laying it aside) as soon as they were dead their souls were amiserable, being cut off from the presence of the Lord.
12 And now, there was no means to reclaim men from this fallen state, which aman had brought upon himself because of his own bdisobedience;
13 Therefore, according to justice, the aplan of bredemption could not be brought about, only on conditions of repentance of men in this probationary state, yea, this preparatory state; for except it were for these conditions, mercy could not take effect except it should destroy the work of justice. Now the work of justice could not be destroyed; if so, God would ccease to be God.
14 And thus we see that all mankind were afallen, and they were in the grasp of bjustice; yea, the justice of God, which consigned them forever to be cut off from his presence.
15 And now, the plan of mercy could not be brought about except an atonement should be made; therefore God himself aatoneth for the sins of the world, to bring about the plan of bmercy, to appease the demands of cjustice, that God might be a dperfect, just God, and a emerciful God also.
to be continued next post...
Mortality is a probationary time to enable man to repent and serve God—The fall brought temporal and spiritual death upon all mankind—Redemption comes through repentance—God himself atoneth for the sins of the world—Mercy is for those who repent—All others are subject to God’s justice—Mercy cometh because of the atonement—Only the truly penitent are saved. About 73 B.C.
1 And now, my son, I perceive there is somewhat more which doth worry your mind, which ye cannot understand—which is concerning the ajustice of God in the bpunishment of the sinner; for ye do try to suppose that it is cinjustice that the sinner should be consigned to a state of misery.
2 Now behold, my son, I will explain this thing unto thee. For behold, after the Lord God sent our first parents forth from the garden of aEden, to till the bground, from whence they were taken—yea, he drew out the man, and he placed at the east end of the garden of Eden, ccherubim, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the tree of life—
3 Now, we see that the man had become as God, knowing good and evil; and lest he should put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat and live forever, the Lord God placed acherubim and the flaming sword, that he should not partake of the fruit—
4 And thus we see, that there was a atime granted unto man to repent, yea, a bprobationary time, a time to repent and serve God.
5 For behold, if Adam had put forth his hand immediately, and apartaken of the btree of life, he would have lived forever, according to the word of God, having no space for repentance; yea, and also the word of God would have been void, and the great plan of salvation would have been frustrated.
6 But behold, it was appointed unto man to adie—therefore, as they were cut off from the tree of life they should be cut off from the face of the earth—and man became blost forever, yea, they became cfallen man.
7 And now, ye see by this that our first parents were acut off both temporally and spiritually from the bpresence of the Lord; and thus we see they became subjects to follow after their own cwill.
8 Now behold, it was not expedient that man should be reclaimed from this atemporal death, for that would destroy the great bplan of happiness.
9 Therefore, as the soul could never die, and the afall had brought upon all mankind a spiritual bdeath as well as a temporal, that is, they were cut off from the presence of the Lord, it was expedient that mankind should be reclaimed from this spiritual death.
10 Therefore, as they had become acarnal, sensual, and devilish, by bnature, this cprobationary state became a state for them to prepare; it became a preparatory state.
11 And now remember, my son, if it were not for the plan of redemption, (laying it aside) as soon as they were dead their souls were amiserable, being cut off from the presence of the Lord.
12 And now, there was no means to reclaim men from this fallen state, which aman had brought upon himself because of his own bdisobedience;
13 Therefore, according to justice, the aplan of bredemption could not be brought about, only on conditions of repentance of men in this probationary state, yea, this preparatory state; for except it were for these conditions, mercy could not take effect except it should destroy the work of justice. Now the work of justice could not be destroyed; if so, God would ccease to be God.
14 And thus we see that all mankind were afallen, and they were in the grasp of bjustice; yea, the justice of God, which consigned them forever to be cut off from his presence.
15 And now, the plan of mercy could not be brought about except an atonement should be made; therefore God himself aatoneth for the sins of the world, to bring about the plan of bmercy, to appease the demands of cjustice, that God might be a dperfect, just God, and a emerciful God also.
to be continued next post...
Scott C.
Just one guy
...continued from previous post.
16 Now, repentance could not come unto men except there were a apunishment, which also was beternal as the life of the soul should be, affixed copposite to the plan of happiness, which was as deternal also as the life of the soul.
17 Now, how could a man repent except he should asin? How could he sin if there was no blaw? How could there be a law save there was a punishment?
18 Now, there was a punishment affixed, and a just law given, which brought remorse of aconscience unto man.
19 Now, if there was no law given—if a man amurdered he should bdie—would he be afraid he would die if he should murder?
20 And also, if there was no law given against sin men would not be afraid to sin.
21 And if there was ano law given, if men sinned what could justice do, or mercy either, for they would have no claim upon the creature?
22 But there is a law given, and a apunishment affixed, and a brepentance granted; which repentance, mercy claimeth; otherwise, justice claimeth the creature and executeth the claw, and the law inflicteth the punishment; if not so, the works of justice would be destroyed, and God would cease to be God.
23 But God ceaseth not to be God, and amercy claimeth the penitent, and mercy cometh because of the batonement; and the atonement bringeth to pass the cresurrection of the dead; and the dresurrection of the dead bringeth eback men into the presence of God; and thus they are restored into his presence, to be fjudged according to their works, according to the law and justice.
24 For behold, justice exerciseth all his demands, and also amercy claimeth all which is her own; and thus, none but the truly penitent are saved.
25 What, do ye suppose that amercy can rob bjustice? I say unto you, Nay; not one whit. If so, God would cease to be God.
26 And thus God bringeth about his great and eternal apurposes, which were prepared bfrom the foundation of the world. And thus cometh about the salvation and the redemption of men, and also their destruction and misery.
27 Therefore, O my son, awhosoever will come may come and partake of the waters of life freely; and whosoever will not come the same is not compelled to come; but in the last day it shall be brestored unto him according to his cdeeds.
28 If he has desired to do aevil, and has not repented in his days, behold, evil shall be done unto him, according to the restoration of God.
29 And now, my son, I desire that ye should let these things atrouble you no more, and only let your sins trouble you, with that trouble which shall bring you down unto repentance.
30 O my son, I desire that ye should deny the ajustice of God no more. Do not endeavor to excuse yourself in the least point because of your sins, by denying the justice of God; but do you let the justice of God, and his bmercy, and his long-suffering have full sway in your heart; and let it bring you down to the dust in chumility.
31 And now, O my son, ye are called of God to apreach the word unto this people. And now, my son, go thy way, declare the word with truth and soberness, that thou mayest bbring souls unto repentance, that the great plan of mercy may have claim upon them. And may God grant unto you even according to my words. Amen.
16 Now, repentance could not come unto men except there were a apunishment, which also was beternal as the life of the soul should be, affixed copposite to the plan of happiness, which was as deternal also as the life of the soul.
17 Now, how could a man repent except he should asin? How could he sin if there was no blaw? How could there be a law save there was a punishment?
18 Now, there was a punishment affixed, and a just law given, which brought remorse of aconscience unto man.
19 Now, if there was no law given—if a man amurdered he should bdie—would he be afraid he would die if he should murder?
20 And also, if there was no law given against sin men would not be afraid to sin.
21 And if there was ano law given, if men sinned what could justice do, or mercy either, for they would have no claim upon the creature?
22 But there is a law given, and a apunishment affixed, and a brepentance granted; which repentance, mercy claimeth; otherwise, justice claimeth the creature and executeth the claw, and the law inflicteth the punishment; if not so, the works of justice would be destroyed, and God would cease to be God.
23 But God ceaseth not to be God, and amercy claimeth the penitent, and mercy cometh because of the batonement; and the atonement bringeth to pass the cresurrection of the dead; and the dresurrection of the dead bringeth eback men into the presence of God; and thus they are restored into his presence, to be fjudged according to their works, according to the law and justice.
24 For behold, justice exerciseth all his demands, and also amercy claimeth all which is her own; and thus, none but the truly penitent are saved.
25 What, do ye suppose that amercy can rob bjustice? I say unto you, Nay; not one whit. If so, God would cease to be God.
26 And thus God bringeth about his great and eternal apurposes, which were prepared bfrom the foundation of the world. And thus cometh about the salvation and the redemption of men, and also their destruction and misery.
27 Therefore, O my son, awhosoever will come may come and partake of the waters of life freely; and whosoever will not come the same is not compelled to come; but in the last day it shall be brestored unto him according to his cdeeds.
28 If he has desired to do aevil, and has not repented in his days, behold, evil shall be done unto him, according to the restoration of God.
29 And now, my son, I desire that ye should let these things atrouble you no more, and only let your sins trouble you, with that trouble which shall bring you down unto repentance.
30 O my son, I desire that ye should deny the ajustice of God no more. Do not endeavor to excuse yourself in the least point because of your sins, by denying the justice of God; but do you let the justice of God, and his bmercy, and his long-suffering have full sway in your heart; and let it bring you down to the dust in chumility.
31 And now, O my son, ye are called of God to apreach the word unto this people. And now, my son, go thy way, declare the word with truth and soberness, that thou mayest bbring souls unto repentance, that the great plan of mercy may have claim upon them. And may God grant unto you even according to my words. Amen.
sandy whitelinger
Veteran Member
He got His point across, you rejected it.
sandy whitelinger
Veteran Member
Try that one in court.
What point would that be, exactly? I seem to have missed it.
...along with most of the planet, if there's any sort of God who wants us to be Christian. I'd say that a ~33% or less success rate isn't very indicative of an all-powerful God who's trying His darnedest.
How about this one:
You see, judge, I landscaped my backyard all myself, including a nice pool, a deck, and a big spike pit in the middle of the grass. When I was finished it was all quite nice, if you don't mind me saying so.
Then, I invited everyone on the street over for a barbeque. I told everyone to stay in the pool or on the deck and to stay off the grass, but a bunch of people didn't and they fell into the pit. I know they say that I didn't tell them about the pit, but I'm certain that they heard me and just ignored me. By the end of the barbeque, more than half the people that came had fallen into the pit; it was a pretty nasty sight in there.
I really didn't want anyone to fall into the spike pit and it breaks my heart that people ended up in there. I'm not at fault for all those impalings, am I?
sandy whitelinger
Veteran Member
Which is changing the parameters from what you stated:
From that, it is the fault of the people who made the rules.
zenzero
Its only a Label
can anyone show me hell?
watch your mind, it is peobably in hell right now!
All old texts require new vision to make them alive.
Jesus was surely enlightened but thereafter few achieved enlightenment following his path as because what followed was led by unenlightened people.
Wahtever IS, its HERE-NOW. Past-future are only mind play.
only by getting out of the mind trap would be be free of hell and heaven, all dualities.
Love & rgds
watch your mind, it is peobably in hell right now!
All old texts require new vision to make them alive.
Jesus was surely enlightened but thereafter few achieved enlightenment following his path as because what followed was led by unenlightened people.
Wahtever IS, its HERE-NOW. Past-future are only mind play.
only by getting out of the mind trap would be be free of hell and heaven, all dualities.
Love & rgds
I didn't state that. And my post was meant to address the sentiment expressed in this thread that somehow, if people were to suffer in Hell, that God would be blameless and the fault would lie with the "sinners" alone.
crystalonyx
Well-Known Member
The idea of hell is not even well supported biblically, while the life of Jesus is not supported historically, so you haven't got much.
There is more evidence for the historical life of Jesus than most 2000 year old guys. The only way you can claim otherwise is by dismissing 5 independent historians and four written accounts (just because they were included in the canon). And then you can also explain why there was no uproar about these books that were written less than a few generations after this supposed man's death about someone that never even existed. Or why none of these historians were countered for including some mythical figure in their records.