Is Hell Really Fair?

[ADigitalArtist]

I believe Hell is neither retributive justice nor restorative justice. It is simply the result of making the wrong decision.

I don't believe that any more than I believe a gunman who says 'getting shot is simply the result of disobedience.' It is, at best, coercive and trying to dissolve responsibility by ambiguous language.

Hell is the quintessential example of retributive justice. And a very slanted one at that. As simple and crude 'eye for an eye' is, hell is 'eye for an eternity of torment and pain.' So even by rettibutitive standards, hell is unjust.

 

[Skwim]

For example, you quoted Revelation 20:10 in a failed attempt to refute my claims that Hell is a temporary condition and that God's plan is fair.

If you had read the chapter in it's entirety you would see your error.

Revelation 20:10 reads (from the KJV),

"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

First off, this verse is speaking about the fate of the devil - no one else. What makes you assume that this fate applies to everyone that "goes to" Hell?

I only have time enough to address part of your comment so I'll be brief.

Matthew 25: 31-33, 41, 46
31 “The Son of Man will come again with divine greatness, and all his angels will come with him. He will sit as king on his great and glorious throne. 32 All the people of the world will be gathered before him. Then he will separate everyone into two groups. It will be like a shepherd separating his sheep from his goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

41 “Then the king will say to the evil people on his left, ‘Get away from me. God has already decided that you will be punished. Go into the fire that burns forever—the fire that was prepared for the devil and his angels.

46 “Then these evil people will go away to be punished forever. But the godly people will go and enjoy eternal life.”​

And if this isn't hell then what is it? It certainly has the same description as hell:

Mark 9:43
If your hand makes you sin, cut it off. It is better for you to lose part of your body and have eternal life than to have two hands and go to hell. There the fire never stops.

Jude 1:23
Rescue those who are living in danger of hell’s fire. There are others you should treat with mercy, but be very careful that their filthy lives don’t rub off on you.​

.

 

[Prestor John]

You have a biblical quote in support of that claim?

From post #71 on this thread,

"With all due respect, you seem to have some very major misunderstandings about the concept of Hell and the scriptures you have referenced.

I’m not trying to sound sanctimonious, but I do believe that I have a “particular set of skills” (name that movie!) that can help you gain a better understanding.

Most of which consist of actually reading the text and not quoting it out of context.

For example, you quoted Revelation 20:10 in a failed attempt to refute my claims that Hell is a temporary condition and that God's plan is fair.

If you had read the chapter in it's entirety you would see your error.

Revelation 20:10 reads (from the KJV),

"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

First off, this verse is speaking about the fate of the devil - no one else. What makes you assume that this fate applies to everyone that "goes to" Hell?

Also, you quoted this while falsely assuming that this reference to the "lake of fire and brimstone" was a reference to Hell. The verses almost immediately following the one you quoted prove that notion false;

"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." (Revelation 20:12-14) (Bold and italics added)

These verses claim that Hell shall "deliver up" the dead contained therein before they are to be judged. The condition of Hell has an end before we receive our Final Judgment. It is temporary.

Then the next verse claims that both death and hell shall be "cast into the lake of fire", proving not only that the condition of Hell is temporary (as I claimed) but also that the "lake of fire" mentioned in the verse you quoted (v.20) is NOT a reference to Hell.

According to the verse you quoted, after the Final Battle the devil will be cast into a "lake of fire" (which is not Hell) and he will be tormented there forever.

This "lake of fire", which is also referred to as the "bottomless pit" (v.3) and the "second death" (v.14) in this very same chapter is the "Outer Darkness" often referred to in the scriptures.

It is the space outside of God's Kingdom from where there is no return. It is not Hell. Hell is a temporary condition placed upon the unrepentant while they await the time of their resurrection before the Final Judgment.

Revelation 21:8 (the other verse you quoted out of context) also does not refer to Hell when it calls the place the "lake which burneth with fire and brimstone" and the "second death".

Both are references to Outer Darkness.

You tried to apply what the scriptures say about the fate of the devil (Lucifer/Satan) to everyone who will spend time in Hell. That is false doctrine.

You tried to equate the condition of Hell with this "lake of fire and brimstone" and the "second death" when other verses in the same chapters refute that idea.

I don't know what led you to these errors, but I hope you avoid spreading these false ideas in the future.

Now, take notice of these verses,

"Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come." (Matthew 12:31-32)

The devil (Lucifer/Satan) has committed this sin against the Holy Ghost, therefore he will not receive forgiveness and will eventually be cast into Outer Darkness.

Any mortal who commits this sin against the Holy Ghost will also be cast out. I wouldn't worry about committing this sin because it would first require you to have a perfect knowledge of God and His Christ before you could commit it.

Thank goodness for faith!

So, according to the Lord Jesus Christ, all other sins and blasphemies will eventually be forgiven. The sinner may need to spend some time in Hell, but they will be forgiven as long as they did not commit the sin against the Holy Ghost."

 

[Prestor John]

I only have time enough to address part of your comment so I'll be brief.

Matthew 25: 31-33, 41, 46
31 “The Son of Man will come again with divine greatness, and all his angels will come with him. He will sit as king on his great and glorious throne. 32 All the people of the world will be gathered before him. Then he will separate everyone into two groups. It will be like a shepherd separating his sheep from his goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

41 “Then the king will say to the evil people on his left, ‘Get away from me. God has already decided that you will be punished. Go into the fire that burns forever—the fire that was prepared for the devil and his angels.

46 “Then these evil people will go away to be punished forever. But the godly people will go and enjoy eternal life.”​

And if this isn't hell then what is it? It certainly has the same description as hell:

Mark 9:43
If your hand makes you sin, cut it off. It is better for you to lose part of your body and have eternal life than to have two hands and go to hell. There the fire never stops.

Jude 1:23
Rescue those who are living in danger of hell’s fire. There are others you should treat with mercy, but be very careful that their filthy lives don’t rub off on you.​

.

My earlier post clearly explained this, but I don't mind going over it again.

We need look no further than Revelation 20.

The verse you originally quoted to me (v.10) says,

"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

This "lake of fire and brimstone" is the same place described by the Master in Matthew 25:41 that had been "prepared for the devil and his angels".

So, we know that there is such a place but Revelation 20:14 claims that this place is NOT HELL;

"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

Revelation 20 claims that the devil, death and hell will all three be cast into this "lake of fire".

Therefore, it is obvious that the "lake of fire" mentioned in both Revelation 20 and Matthew 25 is NOT HELL and that both death and Hell will have an end.

This "lake of fire and brimstone" is also described as the "bottomless pit" (v.3), the "second death" (v.14) and the Master generally refers to it as "Outer Darkness".

I would like to now mention something that I didn't go over in my last post, but I think it's important to point out.

I understand that terms like "everlasting" and "eternal" are often synonymous with "forever" or "having no end", but they are not only descriptions of time and quantity, but also of quality.

The scripture make a clear distinction between "immortality" and "eternal life". Why is that so? Don't they both mean living forever?

No, they don't. Immortality may mean that, but an "eternal life" is also a description of quality, not just quantity.

God is Eternal. This is not just saying that He is outside of time or that He is forever, but it also means that He enjoys the highest quality of life, light and glory.

An "eternal or everlasting life" is a "God-like life" or an existence that enjoys the same quality of righteousness, glory and satisfaction that God Himself enjoys.

So, to get back to the idea of Hell and punishment, an "eternal or everlasting punishment" does not mean a punishment that lasts forever, but rather a level of punishment that is eternal. A "God-tier" level of punishment. The ultimate punishment.

So, even though Hell is a temporary condition, the burning or "fire-like" sensation of that condition is of a "God-tier" or "eternal" level of punishment.

Those who experience Hell upon death will suffer this punishment until the time of their resurrection and Final Judgment.

Again, Revelation 20 explains that Hell is temporary,

"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works." (Revelation 20:12-13)

I hope this cleared it all up. Hell is temporary. Everyone will eventually be released from Hell when they are resurrected and brought before the Lord Jesus Christ to be judged.

 

[Skwim]

.

My earlier post clearly explained this, but I don't mind going over it again.

We need look no further than Revelation 20.

The verse you originally quoted to me (v.10) says,

"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

This "lake of fire and brimstone" is the same place described by the Master in Matthew 25:41 that had been "prepared for the devil and his angels".

So, we know that there is such a place but Revelation 20:14 claims that this place is NOT HELL;

First or second death, whatever the case, the Bible says that some of us will live out the rest of their lives in an eternal fire: hell. The very same place god created for the devil and his angels..

Matthew 25:41
Then shall he say also to them on the left hand, Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:​

And that this everlasting fire is hell

Mark 9:43-45
And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell.
​

Now, if some other verse conflicts with this it certainly won't be the only contradiction the Bible serves up.

.

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

I would not, frankly-- the bible's god is a murderous tyrant. An egomaniacal sociopath.

Jesus is no better-- what with being the same Bully as god.

That is my point exactly.

Everyone asks if that is fair. Yet they don't want anything to do with God or Christ.

It is perfectly fair. You get what you want. I get what I want.

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[Skwim]

That is my point exactly.

Everyone asks if that is fair. Yet they don't want anything to do with God or Christ.

Gee, could it be it's because they don't think he is fair?

It is perfectly fair.

Then I really question your sense of morals.

.

 

[1213]

...You don't think that someone who is cast into everlasting fire or into hell fire doesn't suffer? If no suffering takes place then what's the purpose of the everlasting hell fire in the first place?
.

If the person is dead, he doesn’t suffer. I think the purpose is just to destroy those who are thrown into hell.

 

[1213]

But of course you are aware that most Christians don't believe that at all. In fact, most Christians (ask the Catholics) agree that you can be quite unrighteous, and commit quite a lot of sins, so long as you believe in Jesus and ask forgiveness. Those same Christians would also tell you that you can live a perfectly righteous life, committing practically no sins at all, yet not deserve eternal life for simply failing to believe in Jesus.

I believe what the Bible tells, and according to it:

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. To this end the Son of God was revealed, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.
1 John 3:7-10

For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without the law. As many as have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it isn't the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be justified (for when Gentiles who don't have the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying with them, and their thoughts among themselves accusing or else excusing them) in the day when God will judge the secrets of men, according to my gospel, by Jesus Christ.
Romans 2:12-16

According to those, eternal life is for righteous, and “gentiles” can also be counted righteous, if they show they are righteous.

 

[Skwim]

If the person is dead, he doesn’t suffer. I think the purpose is just to destroy those who are thrown into hell.

Matthew 25:46
“Then these evil people will go away to be punished forever.

.​

 

[Prestor John]

.

First or second death, whatever the case, the Bible says that some of us will live out the rest of their lives in an eternal fire: hell. The very same place god created for the devil and his angels..

Matthew 25:41
Then shall he say also to them on the left hand, Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:​

And that this everlasting fire is hell

Mark 9:43-45
And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell.
​

Now, if some other verse conflicts with this it certainly won't be the only contradiction the Bible serves up.

.

I already offered up verses that explain that these references to "fire" are not references to Hell.

Why ask me questions if you are unwilling to read my responses?

I thought we were having a discussion, but it seems I've just been talking to the air.

Just remember that you have been corrected in regards to this topic.

Stop spreading lies.

God bless you.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I believe what the Bible tells, and according to it:

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. To this end the Son of God was revealed, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.
1 John 3:7-10

For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without the law. As many as have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it isn't the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be justified (for when Gentiles who don't have the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying with them, and their thoughts among themselves accusing or else excusing them) in the day when God will judge the secrets of men, according to my gospel, by Jesus Christ.
Romans 2:12-16

According to those, eternal life is for righteous, and “gentiles” can also be counted righteous, if they show they are righteous.

Ah, excellent.

Now, define "righteous."

 

[FearGod]

.

Aside from the claim that god knows what's best for us so we shouldn't question his decisions,

DO YOU THINK THAT SPENDING AN ETERNITY SUFFERING IN HELL FOR A MISTAKE MADE ON EARTH IS FAIR?

View attachment 33214

God does:

Matthew 25:46
"And these will go away into eternal punishment"​

I don't

​

And your opinion?

.

Do you believe it's fair to put a person in jail for his whole life just because he killed one innocent person?
why not giving him one more chance then if he killed one more time then put him again in jail, then
give him a chance again and again, what do you think?

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

I believe it is when it comes to questions of good or evil but I still have a will for doing things that are good.

I believe you have not learned the lesson of the Garden of Eden. Disobeying God is a sin. Knowing evil is death.

I believe that is true so that is why I opt for not knowing evil.

Nope. And? Nope. And? Nope.

The LESSON of the Garden? Says NOTHING about evil or good!

It says the Tree Of Knowing! The Tree of Knowledge!

Worse: Neither Adam nor Eve had knowledge of ANYTHING-- they were innocent children.

They could not comprehend what was happening--- it was beyond them.

Yet, the BULLY punishes them for something they could not understand...

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

I believe the Bible has the true depiction. Other depictions are fantasy.

Indeed: The bible is pure fantasy. Wait... that's not quite what you said, is it?

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Do you believe it's fair to put a person in jail for his whole life just because he killed one innocent person?.

No.

why not giving him one more chance then if he killed one more time then put him again in jail, then
give him a chance again and again, what do you think?

That makes zero sense...

Moreover? There is no such thing as "one innocent person", is there-- not according to the bible...

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

From post #71 on this thread,

"With all due respect, you seem to have some very major misunderstandings about the concept of Hell and the scriptures you have referenced.

I’m not trying to sound sanctimonious, but I do believe that I have a “particular set of skills” (name that movie!) that can help you gain a better understanding.

Most of which consist of actually reading the text and not quoting it out of context.

For example, you quoted Revelation 20:10 in a failed attempt to refute my claims that Hell is a temporary condition and that God's plan is fair.

If you had read the chapter in it's entirety you would see your error.

Revelation 20:10 reads (from the KJV),

"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

First off, this verse is speaking about the fate of the devil - no one else. What makes you assume that this fate applies to everyone that "goes to" Hell?

Also, you quoted this while falsely assuming that this reference to the "lake of fire and brimstone" was a reference to Hell. The verses almost immediately following the one you quoted prove that notion false;

"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." (Revelation 20:12-14) (Bold and italics added)

These verses claim that Hell shall "deliver up" the dead contained therein before they are to be judged. The condition of Hell has an end before we receive our Final Judgment. It is temporary.

Then the next verse claims that both death and hell shall be "cast into the lake of fire", proving not only that the condition of Hell is temporary (as I claimed) but also that the "lake of fire" mentioned in the verse you quoted (v.20) is NOT a reference to Hell.

According to the verse you quoted, after the Final Battle the devil will be cast into a "lake of fire" (which is not Hell) and he will be tormented there forever.

This "lake of fire", which is also referred to as the "bottomless pit" (v.3) and the "second death" (v.14) in this very same chapter is the "Outer Darkness" often referred to in the scriptures.

It is the space outside of God's Kingdom from where there is no return. It is not Hell. Hell is a temporary condition placed upon the unrepentant while they await the time of their resurrection before the Final Judgment.

Revelation 21:8 (the other verse you quoted out of context) also does not refer to Hell when it calls the place the "lake which burneth with fire and brimstone" and the "second death".

Both are references to Outer Darkness.

You tried to apply what the scriptures say about the fate of the devil (Lucifer/Satan) to everyone who will spend time in Hell. That is false doctrine.

You tried to equate the condition of Hell with this "lake of fire and brimstone" and the "second death" when other verses in the same chapters refute that idea.

I don't know what led you to these errors, but I hope you avoid spreading these false ideas in the future.

Now, take notice of these verses,

"Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come." (Matthew 12:31-32)

The devil (Lucifer/Satan) has committed this sin against the Holy Ghost, therefore he will not receive forgiveness and will eventually be cast into Outer Darkness.

Any mortal who commits this sin against the Holy Ghost will also be cast out. I wouldn't worry about committing this sin because it would first require you to have a perfect knowledge of God and His Christ before you could commit it.

Thank goodness for faith!

So, according to the Lord Jesus Christ, all other sins and blasphemies will eventually be forgiven. The sinner may need to spend some time in Hell, but they will be forgiven as long as they did not commit the sin against the Holy Ghost."

I do not get your re-writing of Revelations at all. The parts you referenced spoke of Lucifer, not humans.

Worse: "sin against the Holy Ghost" ... what is so weak about this Holy Haunt that it gets all upset and cannot forgive?

That means.... mere mortal Humans are MORE FORGIVING than your god!

Humans have the ability to forgive-- and wait--- we do not need BLOOD MAGIC either!

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

That is my point exactly.

Everyone asks if that is fair. Yet they don't want anything to do with God or Christ.

It is perfectly fair. You get what you want. I get what I want.

Good-Ole-Rebel

Your god (White Jesus)? Is pure evil. Nobody who isn't a sociopath would want to be near that monster...

 

[loverofhumanity]

.

Aside from the claim that god knows what's best for us so we shouldn't question his decisions,

DO YOU THINK THAT SPENDING AN ETERNITY SUFFERING IN HELL FOR A MISTAKE MADE ON EARTH IS FAIR?

View attachment 33214

God does:

Matthew 25:46
"And these will go away into eternal punishment"​

I don't

​

And your opinion?

.

We make the beds we sleep in. We can make this world a heaven or a hell or of our characters - heavenly or satanic so I see it as a matter of choice which state we prefer to be in.

If I choose to be evil forever then that’s my choice or saintly forever it’s my choice. In the Baha’i teachings heaven is nearness to God and hell is to be far from a God so again it’s our choice to choose to believe in God or not.

The only burning hell so to speak is done by us by our choices I believe. We remain bereft of divine virtues only if we choose to do so. That is to me what burning in hell is all about, wrong choices. We bring on our own misery in both this world and the next.

 

[Prestor John]

You seem to be very confused about what I said and about the "unpardonable sin". I will try to help if I can.

I do not get your re-writing of Revelations at all.

I did not "rewrite" the Book of Revelation at all. I quoted from the book directly.

Verse 14 clearly claims that both death and Hell will be cast "into the lake of fire" which means that the "lake of fire" is not Hell.

The parts you referenced spoke of Lucifer, not humans.

That is exactly what I said in my post. I said,

"First off, this verse is speaking about the fate of the devil - no one else. What makes you assume that this fate applies to everyone that "goes to" Hell?"

It was the OP who tried to make the claim that verse 10 was a reference to all humans who had entered Hell.

Which was why I pointed out that it was only referencing the devil (Lucifer/Satan) and no one else.

Did you even read my post?

Worse: "sin against the Holy Ghost" ... what is so weak about this Holy Haunt that it gets all upset and cannot forgive?

You should learn some restraint and patience. At least gain a minimal understanding before making any criticism.

You look very foolish.

The "unpardonable sin", also referred to as the "sin or blasphemy against the Holy Ghost", is committed when someone comes to know, without the shadow of any doubt, that God lives and that Jesus is His Christ - and still deny Him.

Prophets have claimed that it would be akin to looking up at the sun at noonday and declaring that it does not shine.

In order to commit this sin, you would first need to know the truth about God without any doubt, so not many people will ever be guilty of committing this sin.

We do know a few examples of those who qualify. Lucifer would be the first to mention. Cain, the brother of Abel and Judas Iscariot are two others commonly known.

There are for sure others, but any I would offer up would be pure speculation.

That means.... mere mortal Humans are MORE FORGIVING than your god!

You literally know nothing about what you are talking about.

Those who commit this sin cauterize their own souls. They did everything they could to make it so that they could not be saved.

The best lawyer in the world can do nothing for their client if they admit to committing every heinous crime, claiming to have zero remorse, offering all the physical evidence the court needs to convict as well as cussing out the judge and flipping off the jury.

It's not even a matter of forgiveness at that point. The person is beyond any amount of mercy the Lord Jesus Christ can offer.

When they die they will suffer the conditions of Hell until the time of their resurrection and Final Judgment. After their judgment they will be cast into "Outer Darkness" also known as the "lake of fire" along with Lucifer and his angels.

Humans have the ability to forgive-- and wait--- we do not need BLOOD MAGIC either!

Actually, without the Atoning Sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ, no one would have the ability to forgive.

The Lord Jesus Christ is the light and life of all men. All good things come from Him.

If not for Him we would not be. If we somehow had managed to exist without Him (impossible) we would be miserable forever because we would be incapable of any good thing and would be consigned to Outer Darkness with no chance of deliverance.

You should really learn a bit about a topic before criticizing it or you'll make yourself look like a *******. Like you just did.