• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Is Hell Really Fair?

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
And where is this written?.
It is written in the Baha'i Writings in so many words, because by knowing how to get to heaven we can know how to avoid going to hell. Hell is not a geographical location, it is a state of torment of a soul who is far from God.

"To 'get to heaven' as you say is dependent on two things--faith in the Manifestation of God in His Day, in other words in this age in Bahá'u'lláh; and good deeds, in other words living to the best of our ability a noble life and doing unto others as we would be done by. But we must always remember that our existence and everything we have or ever will have is dependent upon the mercy of God and His bounty, and therefore He can accept into His heaven, which is really nearness to Him, even the lowliest if He pleases. We always have the hope of receiving His mercy if we reach out for it."
(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, January 12, 1957)

Lights of Guidance (second part): A Bahá'í Reference File
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
I already offered up verses that explain that these references to "fire" are not references to Hell.

Why ask me questions if you are unwilling to read my responses?

I thought we were having a discussion, but it seems I've just been talking to the air.

Just remember that you have been corrected in regards to this topic.

Stop spreading lies.

God bless you.
To tell you the truth, your response was far too messy to plow through. It put me in an "I don't care anymore" frame of mind.

Have a good day, :thumbsup:

.
 

Prestor John

Well-Known Member
To tell you the truth, your response was far too messy to plow through. It put me in an "I don't care anymore" frame of mind.

Have a good day, :thumbsup:

.
Hah! You try to somehow blame me for your laziness?

Why do I keep expecting more from you?
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
Both Adam and Eve had knowledge. They could communicate with God and comprehend what He taught them..

That's not what the story says-- they were as babes. Innocent. Naive. Stupid, even.

They just did not have Knowledge of Good and Evil..

That's not what the story says.
Also, God did not "punish" them for partaking of the fruit..

That's not what the story says-- seems to be a theme here, you, making up what isn't in the story.

Interesting.
Would I be "punishing" you if you died from eating poison after I warned you saying, "Don't eat that poison, because you'll die.".

No-- the language god uses is CLEARLY PUNISHING. He literally curses Adam-- "you'll work until the day you die"

He literally curses Eve-- "You and your daughters will experience deadly and painful childbirth, for all time"

THAT IS PUNISHMENT. You seem to be making up stuff....

... interesting.
All God did was warn Adam and Eve about what would happen to them if they partook of the fruit..

Yeah-- God lied about that too-- before? Adam would DIE THAT VERY DAY. Adam does not die that very day. Death was the only consequence, supposedly.

GOD LIES ABOUT THAT TOO.
He did not punish them. They suffered the consequences of their actions.

You really should stop talking about this stuff you know nothing about.

Irony: Nothing you claimed is actually in the story! And you have the stones to lie about what I wrote?

Wow....
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
So you also like to use words you don't understand the meaning of?

You are such an ignorant *******.

And? You lie pretty much with every post-- you literally re-write what is written in the bible, in order to soothe the ugly narrative that is written. None of your claims match what's written.

I seem to have touched a nerve, here.

To anger an atheist? Tell them a lie.

To anger a theist? Tell the truth about their book.
 

Prestor John

Well-Known Member
Bob. Everything you believe about Adam and Eve and the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil is not true.

It is all second-hand nonsense filled with very very very common lies and misunderstandings.

You need to read the Genesis account for yourself because nothing you have claimed is actually in it.
That's not what the story says-- they were as babes. Innocent. Naive. Stupid, even.
No. That is not written anywhere in the Genesis account, the Bible or any other book of scripture.

The moment Adam was created God communicated with him and he understood God's speech and instruction.

According to the Genesis account, the first thing God did with Adam was place him in the Garden and instructed him on how to "dress it and to keep it" (Genesis 2:15)

Then God explained to Adam that he was free to eat of every tree in the Garden save the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. (Genesis 2:17)

After the warning about the consequences of eating that fruit the Lord had Adam name all the animals that were brought before him. (Genesis 2:18-20)

Then after the Lord had made Eve from Adam's rib Adam testified of Woman's value to Man and he eventually named her (Genesis 3:20) then he declared that one of the purposes of Man was to "leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh." (Genesis 2:24)

God did not treat Adam like a baby. He gave Adam charge over the entirety of the Garden and allowed him to name all the animals of the Earth and even his own wife.

Adam was not naive or stupid. He was able to communicate, receive instruction and understand deep concepts such as death and marriage.

All that Adam lacked before partaking of the fruit was a Knowledge of Good and Evil and experience with the conditions of mortality.
That's not what the story says.
Really? What does "the story" say?

I understand that you have a false "story" in your head given to you by ignorant or misled people, because no where in the Genesis account does it claim that Adam lacked any knowledge despite the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

Read it for yourself.

Where in the Genesis account does it claim that Adam lacked anything besides a Knowledge of Good and Evil?
That's not what the story says-- seems to be a theme here, you, making up what isn't in the story.
That's rich coming from someone who hasn't ever read the Genesis account or even quoted from it to try and back up your claims like I have.

All the Genesis account claims is that the Lord commanded Adam not to partake of the fruit because he would die if he did so. (Genesis 2:17)

We now know that the partaking of the fruit caused changes to occur not only to Adam and Eve, but also to the Earth itself.

In the Garden, Adam and Eve knew no pain or sorrow. They had not yet entered into the conditions of mortality.

This was why the Lord told Eve that, now that she was entering into mortality, she would experience great pain and sorrow in child birth. (Genesis 3:16)

He then explained to Adam that because they had partaken of the fruit, the Earth would no longer be a fruitful paradise and he would need to toil to survive. He would need to till the Earth and combat the negative effects of mortality (thorns and thistles) in order to make bread and live. (Genesis 3:17-18)

He also informed them both that they were now destined to experience physical death. (Genesis 3:19)

The Lord was not punishing or cursing anyone. He was informing them that their actions had led to certain changes being made both to them and the Earth.

The Earth had been cursed. Not by God, but by the Fall of Adam and Eve.
No-- the language god uses is CLEARLY PUNISHING. He literally curses Adam-- "you'll work until the day you die"
That is not a punishment.

That is simply informing someone about the inevitability of mortal life.

You claim that I would be "punishing" my child if I told him the same thing?

That he would need to work to survive and that he will eventually die?
He literally curses Eve-- "You and your daughters will experience deadly and painful childbirth, for all time"
Nope. He simply informed her that child bearing in mortality required great pain and even sorrow.

You are interjecting your own personal (and false) interpretation to the text.
Yeah-- God lied about that too-- before? Adam would DIE THAT VERY DAY. Adam does not die that very day.
Again, you are interjecting your own personal interpretation.

What is a "day" to God? A 24-hour period?

The 24-hour day has not always been agreed upon by Man, so why assume that God is subject to that restriction?

Adam was given a brief period to live in mortality and it eventually expired and he died.

What a "day" is to God (a timeless Being) is anyone's guess.
Death was the only consequence, supposedly.
That's a huge assumption.

The Genesis account does not record God claiming that death would be the only consequence of partaking of the fruit.

Stop interjecting your opinion into the text.
Irony: Nothing you claimed is actually in the story! And you have the stones to lie about what I wrote?
You are woefully ignorant of these things and you make yourself look more and more foolish each time you talk about them.

Study the scriptures and stop spreading the dumb.
 

Prestor John

Well-Known Member
And? You lie pretty much with every post-- you literally re-write what is written in the bible, in order to soothe the ugly narrative that is written. None of your claims match what's written.

I seem to have touched a nerve, here.

To anger an atheist? Tell them a lie.

To anger a theist? Tell the truth about their book.
You have yet to correctly quote or reference anything from "the book".

All you have are your second or third-hand versions of the truth.

You are literally a joke.
 

iam1me

Active Member
.
And your opinion?
.

I disagree with your interpretation of hell at a basic level. Hell isn't an eternity of suffering or of being in prison. Rather, hell = the second death, the complete destruction of body and soul.


Matthew 10:28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
 

Neuropteron

Active Member
Some good news is there is a resurection from "hell" (sheol/hades):

Hosea 13:14 "from the hand of Sheol ("the grave" AV "death" DY) I shall redeem them; from death I shall recover them."

Revelation 20:13 "death and hades [or "hell" AV, DY] gave up those dead in them.

The term "Hell" is sometimes confused with the second or everlasting death the lake of fire symbolising eternal death "Gehenna" (as in Mark 9:43, 45 and Revelation 21:8).

The word "hell" is derived from the old english word for 'hole' and in bible translations is the hebrew word "sheol" and greek "hades".

Both terms differ from "Gehenna" which is symbolically depicted as an eternal lake of fire (the eternal death from which there is no resurrection).

To check this for yourself find all the scriptures with the word translated hell/sheol/hades and compare.

There is no torment in this condition according to Ecclesiastes 9:5,10 'the dead are unconscious'
 

Prestor John

Well-Known Member
You have to do more than read it. You have to interpret what you read.
No two people are going to interpret what they read exactly the same way.
That would be true of doctrine, but not of the narration of the Bible.

If you and I read the Book of Genesis we may disagree on certain doctrines contained therein, but we both would come to know that God Created the Earth, Adam and Eve partook of the fruit, Noah built and Ark, Abraham made a covenant with God and Joseph was sold as a slave in Egypt.

Read the first few chapters of Genesis. We may disagree on how long it actually took to form the Earth or whether or not Adam and Eve were following the Patriarchal Order, but we both would see that God warned Adam not to eat of the fruit and then God informing both Adam and Eve of the changes that were happening to both them and the Earth after they partook of the fruit.

Just read it as if it were a story book and you would come to know these things. It's very simple.

Which is why it's so sad that people like Bob and Skwim don't get it.

They either lack the simple comprehension skills to read a story book or they took no effort at all and read nothing.

It's very sad.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
The scriptures never state that the soul is eternal. Rather the scripture I just quoted states it can be destroyed.
The scriptures of my religion state that the soul is eternal.

“And now concerning thy question regarding the soul of man and its survival after death. Know thou of a truth that the soul, after its separation from the body, will continue to progress until it attaineth the presence of God, in a state and condition which neither the revolution of ages and centuries, nor the changes and chances of this world, can alter. It will endure as long as the Kingdom of God, His sovereignty, His dominion and power will endure. It will manifest the signs of God and His attributes, and will reveal His loving kindness and bounty.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 155-156

I go by these scriptures because they were written by a Manifestation of God who got a direct revelation from God through the Holy Spirit. By contrast, the Bible was inspired by God but written by men, and men are not infallible. If we had Jesus writing that the soul can be destroyed that would be a different matter, but we do not have anything that Jesus wrote. All we have is what was written decades later, what was remembered of His utterances.
 
Top