Is Islam a universal religion.

[LuisDantas]

When I use to go to my local masjid I was told how the Qur'an can only truly be understood in the Classical Arabic ir was written in which was indeed true. Most Muslims will tell you that a Qur'an is not a real Qur'an unless it is in the original Arabic which makes English Qur'ans just useless copies.

I'm sure there is some misunderstanding or exageration there. Translations of the Quran may well need to be validated by scholars with ability in Arabic, but they are not useless or pointless.

Language is indeed an aspect denying Islam of its universal appeal. Did I mention that all forms of worship during Salah must be in Arabic and that to offer Dua (supplications) they must be in Arabic as well. All forms of prayer are to be in Arabic because for some reason it is a "holy language".
Islam's demand on Arabic is more higher then you think

That may well be true, but is there any people that can't learn Arabic? Until and unless some is found, that is no grounds to deny its claim towards universality.

 

[Sha'irullah]

I'm sure there is some misunderstanding or exageration there. Translations of the Quran may well need to be validated by scholars with ability in Arabic, but they are not useless or pointless.

I wouldn't call it exaggerated at all. That is what makes it so bizarre.
Most do not regard a n English copy as The Real Qur'an. For example most Muslims perform wudhu before picking up the Qur'an but the same doesn't apply for an English translation. This is how I was taught in my local masjid and this is a common opinion spread through the internet. The Qur'an is a sacred texts that MUST be preserved in its original form which is Arabic. Never once have I taught how to recite a single ayat in english. Only Arabic is permissible.

That may well be true, but is there any people that can't learn Arabic? Until and unless some is found, that is no grounds to deny its claim towards universality.

Actually Japanese have an extremely hard time learning Arabic because of the lack of certain letters. They pronounce Allah as Arrah because of lack of an L in their alphabet. A Muslimah convert who I know of had this issue and she ended up quitting Islam because of its anti-Japanese nature. She is now a Nihon nationalist :biglaugh:. But I am quite confident there is a language group that cannot adapt to Arabic.

 

[paarsurrey]

I beg to differ. It is certainly true that the religion of Islam is partial towards the Arabic language and therefore implies or even states outright that it is somehow closer to God than other languages.

However, to the best of our knowledge Arabic can be learned by people of pretty much every place or culture, so it does not follow that the Quran can't be properly understood by potentially everyone.

I don't see how Islam could ever be truly universal, but I don't think the language is a reason why.

The passage coloured by me in magenta is referred to, please.Sorry, I don't see anything like that in Quran.

Thanks

 

[England my lionheart]

People may learn Arabic without being Arabs. It is perhaps not convenient, but IMO it is not enough of a hardship to justify saying that it is not (potentially) universal.

Incidentally, similar language barriers exist to some degree in other faiths as well.

I get that Luis,the thing is what is the lure,the only lure to read a book of scripture comes from another Human being,it doesn't stand alone.

 

[England my lionheart]

Did you study Quran from cover to cover yourself and formed that opinion? Please

One may like to read my posts in the thread <Ants, birds and Jinns: Solomon’s time>
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3092071-post6.html

I thought it was the Hoopoe Bird,anyway I have read a lot of the Qur'an and I like some of the stories,i also like some of the stories in the OT and NT,i like the stories of the dream time by the Australian Aboriginals,i haven't studied it though or the myriad of commentaries and ahadith to understand it,frankly I prefer the hadith basically because they are short stories,JMO.

 

[LuisDantas]

I wouldn't call it exaggerated at all. That is what makes it so bizarre.
Most do not regard a n English copy as The Real Qur'an.

That I get, and I have in fact explained why it is so in other forums long ago (despite never having even considered becoming a Muslim).

All the same, there is a significant difference between not being the Real Qur'an and being useless or worthless as a resource for Muslims. Lots of well-meaning and well-supported Muslims translate the Qur'an and encourage the reading of such translations, even as they make a point of emphasizing that it is not the actual Holy Text that is supposed to be divinely protected from ever losing its worth.

Actually Japanese have an extremely hard time learning Arabic because of the lack of certain letters. They pronounce Allah as Arrah because of lack of an L in their alphabet. A Muslimah convert who I know of had this issue and she ended up quitting Islam because of its anti-Japanese nature. She is now a Nihon nationalist :biglaugh:. But I am quite confident there is a language group that cannot adapt to Arabic.

That is interesting, but still not quite the clear evidence of lack of applicability that I asked for.

 

[paarsurrey]

When I use to go to my local masjid I was told how the Qur'an can only truly be understood in the Classical Arabic ir was written in which was indeed true. Most Muslims will tell you that a Qur'an is not a real Qur'an unless it is in the original Arabic which makes English Qur'ans just useless copies.
Language is indeed an aspect denying Islam of its universal appeal. Did I mention that all forms of worship during Salah must be in Arabic and that to offer Dua (supplications) they must be in Arabic as well. All forms of prayer are to be in Arabic because for some reason it is a "holy language".
Islam's demand on Arabic is more higher then you think

Quran does not mention that; that could be only opinions of those who claim that.
It is true that Quran is read in the Arabic language a little loudly in a manner that it does not disturb others has its own spell-bound charm; that cannot be denied.

Nevertheless; its real charm is its profound system of meaning conveyed in its message; one could benefit from, in any language.

I have personal experience of this; people borrow questions from unfriendly websites; but when referred to Quran, for the text and context, the questions become irrelevant.

One may just try it.

The focus of praying in Arabic is for preservation of the text; along-with the Arabic one could silently make a translation in one&#8217;s own language, it is not forbidden.

It is emphasized that one should also pray in one&#8217;s own mother-tongue for personal prays (supplications) in sajda (Prostration) or ruku (bowing down following the recitation of the Quran in the standing position while praying); that is most appreciated. The stress is that one&#8217;s spirit should move along the body.

For the &#8220;holy language&#8221; or that other language are &#8220;unholy&#8221;; citation from Quran may please be given.

Thanks

I may add here that all translations, in fact, are commentaries as one could translate only to the extent one understands ; if one does not understand fully one's translation would be defective to that extent.

 

[Sha'irullah]

That I get, and I have in fact explained why it is so in other forums long ago (despite never having even considered becoming a Muslim).

All the same, there is a significant difference between not being the Real Qur'an and being useless or worthless as a resource for Muslims. Lots of well-meaning and well-supported Muslims translate the Qur'an and encourage the reading of such translations, even as they make a point of emphasizing that it is not the actual Holy Text that is supposed to be divinely protected from ever losing its worth.

Well of course the translations are not worthless but they are not as relevant to Islam as only the original one is considered "the word of god" since of course the words of god were emitted from an Arabic speaking person. That part is logical to a major degree of sense.

That is interesting, but still not quite the clear evidence of lack of applicability that I asked for.

Sorry but my encounters with Muslims tends to be from personal experience as I was one of those militant(not too much) Muslims trying to go out and help others and support the jama'ah. I miss those days actually .

But learning Arabic is just not practical to understand the real Qur'an as by doing so you are limiting it by placing cultural barriers on it. When an individual is taught to learn the Qur'an they are given precise definition and how it should be read and instead of learning the Qur'anic literature in original context they learn a madhhabs doctrine and structural bias. So technically one cannot learn the Qur'an fully because of the linguistic limitations. I had to read it myself and eventually could not surpass the first 18 Surah because of my deteriorating knowledge about the Qur'an. I can easily tell you that for a non Arabic speaker learning the Qur'an is not so easy and often futile. This is why denominations take hold as they can dictate the Qur'an according to their own interpretations as factual.

Take note of Christians denominations and their denominations and notice the cultural originals of each denomination and you will get my point. This comes from the limitation of textual perception by linguistic barriers

 

[Sha'irullah]

Quran does not mention that; that could be only opinions of those who claim that.
It is true that Quran is read in the Arabic language a little loudly in a manner that it does not disturb others has its own spell-bound charm; that cannot be denied.

Nevertheless; its real charm is its profound system of meaning conveyed in its message; one could benefit from, in any language.

I have personal experience of this; people borrow questions from unfriendly websites; but when referred to Quran, for the text and context, the questions become irrelevant.

One may just try it.

The focus of praying in Arabic is for preservation of the text; along-with the Arabic one could silently make a translation in one’s own language, it is not forbidden.

It is emphasized that one should also pray in one’s own mother-tongue for personal prays (supplications) in sajda (Prostration) or ruku (bowing down following the recitation of the Quran in the standing position while praying); that is most appreciated. The stress is that one’s spirit should move along the body.

For the “holy language” or that other language are “unholy”; citation from Quran may please be given.

Thanks

In all of my years as a Muslim I have never heard these things being taught. Most will recite duas in Arabic and I have heard amongst Muslims duas do not have to be in Arabic but if I was to ask any imam he would say otherwise. But another issues is when the dua is performed. During Salat most scholars have ruled out using other languages for some reason. I will try to quote references later. But if one is in the midst of salat his dua must be in Arabic.

So there are some bizzare technicalities to it I will add.

 

[paarsurrey]

Translation of Quran are not the real word of God; that is factual and reasonable; that does not mean that Quran should not be translated for understanding it.

 

[paarsurrey]

Actually Japanese have an extremely hard time learning Arabic because of the lack of certain letters. They pronounce Allah as Arrah because of lack of an L in their alphabet. A Muslimah convert who I know of had this issue and she ended up quitting Islam because of its anti-Japanese nature. She is now a Nihon nationalist :... But I am quite confident there is a language group that cannot adapt to Arabic.

There are 185,000 Muslims in Japan, for source, please refer:

Islam by country - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A lone incident does not matter much, in my opinion.

 

[LuisDantas]

The passage coloured by me in magenta is referred to, please.Sorry, I don't see anything like that in Quran.

Thanks

Insisting that Arabic is the only acceptable language for either the Holy Text in its incorruptible form or the religious ceremonies is certainly favoring Arabic over the other languages, don't you agree?

Sure, I suppose that is understood as just following God's supposed choice, but all the same, a God-dictated favoritism is still a favoritism.

 

[paarsurrey]

Insisting that Arabic is the only acceptable language for either the Holy Text in its incorruptible form or the religious ceremonies is certainly favouring Arabic over the other languages, don't you agree?

Sure, I suppose that is understood as just following God's supposed choice, but all the same, a God-dictated favouritism is still a favouritism.

I don't agree with you.

If there would be original word of God in any other language, I will read that; the reality is that there is none other than Quran. I don't belong to a Arab country; yet I enjoy reading Quran in Arabic.

I don't think it has anything to do with favouritism; there are many Arabs who are Christians, Jews etc.

A lot many scholars of Quran and Hadith belong to non-Arab countries; and their status does not get lowered because they are non-Arabs.

 

[LuisDantas]

I don't agree with you.

If there would be original word of God in any other language, I will read that; the reality is that there is none other than Quran. I don't belong to a Arab country; yet I enjoy reading Quran in Arabic.[

I don't think it has anything to do with favouritism; there are many Arabs who are Christians, Jews etc.

A lot many scholars of Quran and Hadith belong to non-Arab countries; and their status does not get lowered because they are non-Arabs.

That hardly addresses the matter of favoritivism of the Arabic language, though.

Also, the Quran being the only or even one possible word of God is an opinion, not a fact.

 

[Sha'irullah]

There are 185,000 Muslims in Japan, for source, please refer:

Islam by country - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A lone incident does not matter much, in my opinion.

haha. Who said I am judging something from a "love incident". I am not referring to an incident I am just stating the fact that japanese will have a hard time learning Arabic since their language gas no L.

Bismirrah rahmanir raheem.
Ahr hamdoo rabirr Arrameen.

That is how it sounds during salat. It is funny . I have had many Japanese friends I would just tease them for not being able to pronounce the L sound.
Also I would love to hear your explanation on why the amount of Muslims in Nihon has anything to do with why it is harder for them to pronounce Arabic.

 

[Sha'irullah]

I don't agree with you.

If there would be original word of God in any other language, I will read that; the reality is that there is none other than Quran. I don't belong to a Arab country; yet I enjoy reading Quran in Arabic.

I don't think it has anything to do with favouritism; there are many Arabs who are Christians, Jews etc.

A lot many scholars of Quran and Hadith belong to non-Arab countries; and their status does not get lowered because they are non-Arabs.

Well that issue regarding the Hadith makes it more simple to explain why there is so much Wathaniyya influence in ahadith.

Angels larger than the earth who carry the throne of Allah who is suppose to be without form?
Or using prophets to intercede to Allah?

You proved one of my earlier debates right now by mistake .


Also Muhammad said Al'lah sent messengers to other parts of the earth and has raised them amongst us. Can you please explain to me what happened to those messengers described in Surat An-Nahl ayat 36? I have yet to found one who taught the same message as Muhammad.

 

[paarsurrey]

In all of my years as a Muslim I have never heard these things being taught. Most will recite duas in Arabic and I have heard amongst Muslims duas do not have to be in Arabic but if I was to ask any imam he would say otherwise. But another issues is when the dua is performed. During Salat most scholars have ruled out using other languages for some reason. I will try to quote references later. But if one is in the midst of salat his dua must be in Arabic.

So there are some bizzare technicalities to it I will add.

Please quote any prohibitions from Quran; there is no clergy class in Islam that must be followed by Muslims.

Thanks

 

[Sha'irullah]

Please quote any prohibitions from Quran; there is no clergy class in Islam that must be followed by Muslims.

Thanks

Again with the mundane questions trying to avoid topic.
There is no clergy in almost any religion that is demanded by scripture and especially within the Qur'an and no ahadith I am aware of.

So let me ask you a question, why are you asking about clergy?

 

[McBell]

Religion is a form of worship. Islam is an entire package of supposed "religion" but guess what else you get? Islam is a sham. It's the wolf dressed as a lamb bleating at your door. Islam is an ancient tribal custom of laws that denigrate one half of the human race. Islam is simply Arab superiority intent on enslaving the planet in Sharia Law. Do you know what the Caliphate is?

Even using your own provided definition of religion, Islam is a religion.
You even acknowledge that fact yourself whilst trying really hard to ignore your own acknowledgement by tacking on a bunch of extra crap that also applies to most other religions.


In short, you just shot your own claim in the foot.

 

[Meow Mix]

The use of hyperbole is probably the most glaring sign that a claim is dubious at best.

You're outrageously attractive.