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Is Islam peaceful?

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
I knew you would post that. You realise that applies to Mecca right? Had you posted verses 1 - 9 it would have been clear.

Yes of course! There's always a "context". All 500 times, there is a special context. It's quite the obstacle course the Quran makes us navigate. You can kill them under this condition, you can kill them under that condition, you can kill them under this other condition, you should never befriend them, they are all liars, they are like pigs, you should ask the trees and stones to give them up, their goal is always to deceive you, Allah hates them this way, Allah hates them this other way, Allah will torture them this way, Allah will torture them that way, Allah will give them new skins to burn off, Allah has closed their eyes and their hearts... and on and on and on, page after repetitive page, ad nauseam.

But of course, Islam is peaceful. Remind me again, what are the peaceful bits?
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
8:55 The worst creatures in the sight of GOD are those who disbelieved; they cannot believe.
This statement can certainly predispose the faithful against us heathens.
The "worst creatures"...pretty harsh prejudice.
And would this apply not just atheists, but those of different religions, eg, Hindus?

I'll give the context for you ...
2:190 You may fight in the cause of GOD against those who attack you, but do not aggress. GOD does not love the aggressors.
2:191 You may kill those who wage war against you, and you may evict them whence they evicted you. Oppression is worse than murder. Do not fight them at the Sacred Masjid, unless they attack you therein. If they attack you, you may kill them. This is the just retribution for those disbelievers.
Could such statements mean that if some in a country war against you, that all in the country
(not just soldiers) are fair game to kill...even if we personally have not attacked you?
 

MohammadPali

Active Member
Quran 9:5
But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.


Read the entire chapter man, grow some knowledge

You have to understand the quran was revealed in stages. Read the entire chapter, the quran has a story behind it, each surah has a story behind it. Its called the written testament and the oral testament.. Look at your flaws. Read why surah at tawba was revealed, what is it talking about, and why.

9:1] This is a declaration of disavowal1 by Allah and His Messenger to those who associate others with Allah in His Divinity and with whom you have made treaties:2



[9:2] "You may go about freely in the land, for four months,3 but know well that you will not be able to frustrate Allah, and that Allah will bring disgrace upon those who deny the Truth."


[9:3] This is a public proclamation by Allah and His Messenger to all people on the day of the Great Pilgrimage:4 "Allah is free from all obligation to those who associate others with Allah in His Divinity; and so is His Messenger. If you repent, it shall be for your own good; but if you turn away, then know well that you will not be able to frustrate Allah. So give glad tidings of a painful chastisement to those who disbelieve.


[9:4] In exception to those who associate others with Allah in His Divinity are those with whom you have made treaties and who have not violated their treaties nor have backed up anyone against you. Fulfil your treaties with them till the end of their term. Surely Allah loves the pious."5


[9:5] But when the sacred months expire6 slay those who associate others with Allah in His Divinity wherever you find them; seize them, and besiege them, and lie in wait for them. But if they repent and establish the Prayer and pay Zakah, leave them alone.7 Surely Allah is All-Forgiving, Ever-Merciful.

6. Here “the sacred months” are not those four months during which war is forbidden for the sake of Hajj and Umrah but the four months that were made unlawful for the Muslims to attack those mushriks who were granted respite by Ayat 2.



And then the same surah

[9:6] And if any of those who associate others with Allah in His Divinity seeks asylum, grant him asylum that he may hear the Word of Allah, and then escort him to safety for they are a people who do not know.8


8. That is, if during a fight, an enemy makes a request that he should be given an opportunity to understand Islam, the Muslims should give him a surety of protection and allow him to visit them. They should then present Islam before him in order to make him understand it. If, after this, he does not embrace Islam, they should convey him safely to his place. Such a person who comes to Dar-ul-Islam under the above mentioned protection is called mustamin in the Islamic code.



The whole thing if you read the entire chapter you would understand whats going on. ON AND ON AND ON.


[9:8] How can there be any covenant with the other polytheists for were they to prevail against you, they will respect neither kinship nor agreement. They seek to please you with their tongues while their hearts are averse to you,10 and most of them are wicked.11
 
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MohammadPali

Active Member
Surah 9 at tawbah explation in further detail.


This verse was revealed unto Prophet PBUH while the Islamic followers were engaged in the Battle of Tabuk. The battle was fought as a retaliation against the buildup attack on the city of Madinah by Byzantine Empire in the year 629.

It was also one of the first successful expansions of Islam in what is supposed to become a series of capturing major Arabian cities. Now, coming to the central aspect of the verse. The verse orders Muslims to fight those idolaters (and also those hypocrites who are the enemy within) when the sacred month is passed because fighting in a holy month is not allowed.

The Byzentiniam force consists of many Arabian allies in those regions that were pagan or either some people of the book as well (Christian, Jews) who are fighting alongside the forces of King Heraclius of Rome to demolish growing Muslim influence in Arabia. So, God ordered Muslims to fight those people so that Muslims may not be outdone and be killed or their tribe eliminated along with the prophet. The fight was a defensive one.

Now, in the last focus of this ayah, God also orders Muslims that if among the enemy, anyone who repents and eliminate the intention to assault Muslims, and better if they pray and give zakah (charity to poor), then the Muslims are not allowed to have any evil intentions against them as well and or find means to fight them at all. God is without a doubt merciful and loves forgiveness.
 

DavidFirth

Well-Known Member
I will now leave this discussion as I have no desire to study or discuss the Quran. It might as well be a rather boring fantasy novel as far as I'm concerned.
 

MohammadPali

Active Member
Quran 9:5
But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

David, go figure out who the invented the bible, and who paul is and then come back and tell us how we should interpret the quran.

Go figure out this man paul who never met jesus, couldn't even quote a verse from jesus parables, and conspired to kill stephen and at the Damascus road became blinded by the holy spirted with witnesses that are not even NAMED.

Credibility starts with witnesses. REAL EYE witnesses, people who saw, people who actually were there. Not some Hellenistic rabbi pagan who preaches the words you say COME FROM GOD.

He wrote letters about his experience and not a single witness, not 1. This saul paul, simon magus, who you call an apostle. False apostle. This man changed your religion, get a grip on it. You have to deal with this man, this is your man.

Read the quran, don't cherry pick words and surahs, read it, and why it was revealed. Just like we do with your bible. Thats called EXEGESIS
 

MohammadPali

Active Member
I will now leave this discussion as I have no desire to study or discuss the Quran. It might as well be a rather boring fantasy novel as far as I'm concerned.


When you leave and get blinded by the holy spirit make sure you come back and tell us the names of the people who witnessed you getting blind, and when you on the ship to go to rome, make sure you let us know who the hell you heal, so we can talk with them and verify that such a thing happened. Thanks paul.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Okay, lets talk about slavery in general, did all muslims practice slavery ? No. But you're talking in a general sense that ALL muslims had slaves, or were involved in slavery of some sort. Not all muslims cared for slavery, and the muslim empire went from spain all the way to parts of mongolia almost. Did everyone really have a slave or practiced slavery, GET REAL.


BUT YOU KNOW WHAT ? Hinduism has been around some 3,500 years, and you know what they have ? A CASTE SYSTEM. So 3,500 years of caste system is pretty damn awful, and id rather live a life as a cow than to be someone from the caste system.

The caste system is just as bad slavery, in some ways it is. I feel bad for these people. If a man dies they would throw their wives in the fire. This has been going on some 3,500 years ?

So deepak chauderwall from hinderbinderbad who suffers from the caste system would rather be some other animal right now because the hinduism is not a fair and loving religion. It deprives man of FREE WILL.
Your attempt to dodge the widespread practice of organized commercial slavery in Islamic civilization by diverting the discussion on caste is noted. But even that is a failure, for it well known that caste discrimination is a direct outcome of stresses in economic and agriculture in the late Mughal Era and policies instituted by the British in the colonial period.

Caste system in India - Wikipedia


The caste system as it exists today is thought to be the result of developments during the collapse of the Mughal era and the British colonial regime in India.[1][7] The collapse of the Mughal era saw the rise of powerful men who associated themselves with kings, priests and ascetics, affirming the regal and martial form of the caste ideal, and it also reshaped many apparently casteless social groups into differentiated caste communities.[8] The British Raj furthered this development, making rigid caste organisation a central mechanism of administration.[7] Between 1860 and 1920, the British segregated Indians by caste, granting administrative jobs and senior appointments only to the upper castes. Social unrest during the 1920s led to a change in this policy.[9] From then on, the colonial administration began a policy of positive discrimination by reserving a certain percentage of government jobs for the lower castes.


For northern Indian region, Susan Bayly writes, "until well into the colonial period, much of the subcontinent was still populated by people for whom the formal distinctions of caste were of only limited importance; Even in parts of the so-called Hindu heartland of Gangetic upper India, the institutions and beliefs which are now often described as the elements of traditional caste were only just taking shape as recently as the early eighteenth century - that is the period of collapse of Mughal period and the expansion of western power in the subcontinent."[119]

For western India, Dirk Kolff, a professor of Humanities, suggests open status social groups dominated Rajput history during the medieval period. He states, "The omnipresence of cognatic kinship and caste in North India is a relatively new phenomenon that only became dominant in the late Mughal and British periods respectively. Historically speaking, the alliance and the open status group, whether war band or religious sect, dominated medieval and early modern Indian history in a way descent and caste did not."

As usual, your understanding of history is biased and incorrect.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
You have to understand the quran was revealed in stages. Read the entire chapter, the quran has a story behind it, each surah has a story behind it. Its called the written testament and the oral testament.. Look at your flaws. Read why surah at tawba was revealed, what is it talking about, and why

But, but, but... the Quran describes ITSELF as easily understood. And timeless. In a couple thousand years all of those stories will be lost. A perfect, easy to understand and timeless text should require none of what you're suggesting.
 

MohammadPali

Active Member
The caste system is 3,500 years of non-sense, stop trying to justify it. It is, everyone knows, it. And no.. not all muslims practiced slavery.

I also don't give a damn about your history either.
 

MohammadPali

Active Member
But, but, but... the Quran describes ITSELF as easily understood. And timeless. In a couple thousand years all of those stories will be lost. A perfect, easy to understand and timeless text should require none of what you're suggesting.


Thats judiasim, 24 books, that is hard. Islam is the quran and sunnah or the hadith. Very easy. Each verse of the quran has a story behind it. Its easy.

When I read the bible, I read it like I read the quran, I don't cherry pick a verse, thats sooo stupid. You have to read the entire chapter to better understand whats going on, why is this here ? Who put this here ? You get what I'm saying ? Its a shame people don't do this. But once you point it out to them, a light bulb comes up OHH, I didn't see that.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Thats judiasim, 24 books, that is hard. Islam is the quran and sunnah or the hadith. Very easy. Each verse of the quran has a story behind it. Its easy.

When I read the bible, I read it like I read the quran, I don't cherry pick a verse, thats sooo stupid. You have to read the entire chapter to better understand whats going on, why is this here ? Who put this here ? You get what I'm saying ? Its a shame people don't do this. But once you point it out to them, a light bulb comes up OHH, I didn't see that.

Well I'd agree that the Quran is relatively short. But not the Hadith. And, I read the entire Quran, cover to cover. I didn't cherry pick a bit.

Now it would be one thing if Muslims claimed that the Quran should be taken as metaphorical, or that it should be read from the context of its origins. But Muslims do NOT say that. We are told that the Quran is the perfect, timeless, unalterable word of Allah.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
The caste system is 3,500 years of non-sense, stop trying to justify it. It is, everyone knows, it. And no.. not all muslims practiced slavery.

I also don't give a damn about your history either.
As has been shown definitively by historians, caste based discrimination is a phenomena that emerged only in the late 17 th century. The wiki article provides the primary historical sources. Live in denial and pseudo-history if you wish, the reality does not change. Neither does the reality of Mass scale slavery in the Islamic society right until modern times can be altered by living in denial.
 
If your'e saying that you'd agree with "Islam was a significant factor" I'm happy to leave it there.

What is the evidence that it was though?

You start in the present with the relative lack of advancement of many Muslim societies, then say 'The GA decline must have been caused by Ghazali's Occasionalism in the 11th'.

Have you got a reason why you would expect a bigger impact from Ghazali than the major structural changes to society that I listed? Seems like you are starting with the answer you want to be true and are intent on finding a role for it.


Can you cite a few of these way-after-Ghazali advances that were for the sake of science, not for the sake of confirming the Quran?

Science and technology in the Ottoman Empire - Wikipedia

Averroes - Wikipedia

Ismail al-Jazari - Wikipedia
 
There isn't alot of racism in arab countries to be honest. As a matter of fact theres more indians that go to arab countries than vice versa. I don't want to go to india, it sucks.

Not a lot of racism? Gulf Arabs are amongst the most racist people on the planet.

The South Asians who go there are often treated like slaves. Literally worked to death, abused, not paid, etc.

Numerous Countries (Philippines, Indonesia, Uganda, etc) have, at times, banned their citizens from working as maids the Gulf because they kept getting raped, tortured, abused, etc.

Treating certain foreigners as being sub-human seems like a pretty egregious form of racism to me.
 
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