Is Islam peaceful?

[MohammadPali]

First off... really? Westerners are flocking to the ME?

Well UN Watch - for one - disagrees with you:

I never believed in the UN, and I can care less for the Algerian government. I really don't care for alot of muslim governments, I love the people, can't stand their governments.

 

[MohammadPali]

And yes alot of americans and europeans work in the middle east, especially the gulf countries, not just oil, teachers, lawyers, doctors, all kinds of things, engineers. So what, you sound like you just heard of this are you from kentucky or texas ?

 

[1robin]

I don't think you're accurate. The prophet mohammad peace be upon him, when he was first allowed to actually engage against the pagan arabs, he went against them because the people of medina were starving, and the pagan arabs had a boycott and a semi-blockade against medina for harboring muslims. And alot of the caravans from medina where being stolen by the pagan arabs.

So what he did was, he gathered a group of muslims to engage the pagan arabs. And there were reports that abu sufyan a well known quraish elite from mecca had a very large caravan. He was heading north towards syria, and had to pass not far from medina.

So abu sufyan had scouts, and he was told that beware there is a muslim group looking for your caravan. So abu sufyan was in total shock. First the fact that mohammad pbuh was engaging against them with a group of men, and the muslims will get all these goods. This was a shock to him. Mohammad never engaged, he was always subdued, restraint.

So he sent a scout to report back to mecca, to assemble men to fight off the muslims. They didn't just assemble an army, they assembled a small legion, of men, some 2,000 men equipped, swords, arrows, they had men on mounts. They even brought musicians, and dancers. The muslims only had 313 men.

Abu sufyan managed to escape the hands of the muslims, he made a very very large U-TURN towards the sea and went around and back past medina and back to mecca. While the assembled pagan arab army was dead smack infront of the muslims at badr. It was called the battle of badr.

Mohammad peace be upon him won this very victory and won a very large booty. And the man he went after with the caravans abu sufyan became a muslim later on, and his son muawiyah was a very famous muslim scribe, he was a muslim and head of the muslims at one point.

Many of the adversaries of mohammad peace be upon him where his staunch supporters in the end, and they where more powerful than him.

There are 3 men that never lost a battle or war in the history of mankind, Khalid ibn walid, Omar ibn khuttub, and genghis khan. OMAR was an adversay of mohammad peace be upon him and he becames a muslim, and khalid ibn walid defeated the muslims at the battle of uhud, and he became a muslim later, and he was more powerful than mohammad, militarily. Khalid ibn Walid his nick name is the sword of allah, and it was never ever broken, ever. SYRIA are the descendants of khalid ibn walid. They wear his name in their hearts. And genghis khan was a tyrant hell bent on destruction, eventually many of his people became muslims.

MohammadPali lets back up a bit a make sure we are on the same page. It seems you skipped over the first decade I mentioned where Muhammad tried to spread Islam by peace and you are more concerned with when the violence began and what it's nature was. So we need to establish when the violence began first. The second and permanent way Muhammad tried to spread Islam was the caravan raiding period and that would fall between the years 622 and 624 and include the battle of Badr. How do those dates line up with the events your describing because those events were unprovoked and tyrannical in nature?


MohammadPali, the following is for another poster. You can just ignore it.
You see this @Muslim-UK, this is at least an attempt to defend Islam and the proper way to respond to my post.

 

[icehorse]

And yes alot of americans and europeans work in the middle east, especially the gulf countries, not just oil, teachers, lawyers, doctors, all kinds of things, engineers. So what, you sound like you just heard of this are you from kentucky or texas ?

Well if your argument is that many westerners are paid high salaries to work in the ME, that could be. But it's not the case that western immigrants are flocking to the ME.

And dude, lay off the personal stuff. We're debating facts. I have to say that I've heard that Muslims are supposed to welcome people who have legitimate concerns and questions about Islam. Did I get that wrong?

 

[MohammadPali]

]The prophet peace be upon him didn't have the man power or the permission to engage against the pagans. The people in Medina suffered greatly, not just muslims, jews and other non-muslims too. They had to eat, they had to survive. And dealing with the pagans was a costly price for the muslims especially the second battle of uhud. It doesn't matter when the violence started. No religion can spread through violence, people would overthrow it, history has shown this. The romans excepted all faiths, they had too, they know what would happen if they forced religion on people.

You're worried about violence, and if islam spread that way, thats not the way you attract followers, Mecca was a vital city not just for the muslims, for trade, and to hear news, people wanted news, they would travel to mecca, or medina and hear the news. This is how the religion spread, people had to move around get stuff, survive, go near water, trade, barter. And they felt attracted to muslims because muslims had to be honest in trade, and news.

 

[MohammadPali]

Well if your argument is that many westerners are paid high salaries to work in the ME, that could be. But it's not the case that western immigrants are flocking to the ME.

And dude, lay off the personal stuff. We're debating facts. I have to say that I've heard that Muslims are supposed to welcome people who have legitimate concerns and questions about Islam. Did I get that wrong?

I think you need a glass of warm milk.

 

[Muslim-UK]

Well I gave you your chance. You didn't even try to defend Islam, you didn't even hint that anything in my original arguments was incorrect, nor were you willing to go toe to toe comparing which faith was the most violent. Three strikes, your out (of the debate as far as I am concerned).

You made a statement saying,

"I am unaware of any mainstream religious text that promotes more violence than the Quran."

What's more violent than the following commandments from god Jesus..

Deuteronomy 7
1 “When the Lord your God brings you into the land which you are entering to take possession of it, and clears away many nations before you, the Hittites, the Gir'ga****es, the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Per'izzites, the Hivites, and the Jeb'usites, seven nations greater and mightier than yourselves, 2 and when the Lord your God gives them over to you, and you defeat them; then you must utterly destroy them; you shall make no covenant with them, and show no mercy to them. 3 You shall not make marriages with them, giving your daughters to their sons or taking their daughters for your sons. 4 For they would turn away your sons from following me, to serve other gods; then the anger of the Lord would be kindled against you, and he would destroy you quickly. 5 But thus shall you deal with them: you shall break down their altars, and dash in pieces their pillars, and hew down their Ashe'rim, and burn their graven images with fire."

You can't even make peace with them. That's barbaric.

Here's a prayer to Jesus:

Psalms 137

7 Lord, be sure to punish the Edomites for what they did
when Jerusalem was captured.
They shouted, “Destroy its buildings!
Pull them down to the ground!”
8 Babylon, you will be destroyed!
Bless the one who pays you back for what you did to us.
9 Bless the one who grabs your babies
and smashes them against a rock.

Here's the rules of war according to god Jesus:

1 Samuel 15
1 One day Samuel said to Saul, “The Lord sent me to anoint you king over his people Israel. Now listen to his message. 2 The Lord All-Powerful says: ‘When the Israelites came out of Egypt, the Amalekites tried to stop them from going to Canaan. I saw what the Amalekites did. 3 Now go fight against the Amalekites. You must completely destroy the Amalekites and everything that belongs to them. Don’t let anything live; you must kill all the men and women and all of their children and little babies. You must kill all of their cattle and sheep and all of their camels and donkeys.’”

4 Saul gathered the army together at Telaim. There were 200,000 foot soldiers and 10,000 other men, including the men from Judah. 5 Then Saul went to the city of Amalek and waited in the valley. 6 He said to the Kenites, “Go away! Leave the Amalekites. Then I won’t destroy you with the Amalekites. You showed kindness to the Israelites when they came out of Egypt.” So the Kenites left the Amalekites.

7 Saul defeated the Amalekites. He fought them and chased them all the way from Havilah to Shur, at the border of Egypt. 8 Agag was the king of the Amalekites. Saul captured Agag alive. Saul let Agag live, but he killed all the men in Agag’s army. 9 Saul and the Israelite soldiers felt bad about destroying everything. So they let Agag live. They also kept the fat cattle, the best sheep, and the lambs. They kept everything that was worth keeping. They didn’t want to destroy those things. They destroyed only what was not worth keeping.

That'll do for now. Please feel free to post 3 violent verses from the Qur'an and include the context as I did along with the translation being used. I got your Bible verses from BibleGateway.com: A searchable online Bible in over 150 versions and 50 languages.

 

[icehorse]

I think you need a glass of warm milk.

I think you should see if you can hold up your end of a debate without trying to make it personal.

 

[Rational Agnostic]

Hi I'm student from Thailand. Now I'm doing research. I would like to ask you some questions. Is Islam peaceful? Thx for you opinion

As a whole, the religion of Islam is not peaceful, in fact, it is the most violent, angry, and irrational religion on the planet. Of course many Muslims as individuals are good, peaceful people and do not take the QUran literally, but as far as the Quran is concerned, it is anything but peaceful.

 

[Rational Agnostic]

You made a statement saying,

"I am unaware of any mainstream religious text that promotes more violence than the Quran."

What's more violent than the following commandments from god Jesus..

Deuteronomy 7
1 “When the Lord your God brings you into the land which you are entering to take possession of it, and clears away many nations before you, the Hittites, the Gir'ga****es, the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Per'izzites, the Hivites, and the Jeb'usites, seven nations greater and mightier than yourselves, 2 and when the Lord your God gives them over to you, and you defeat them; then you must utterly destroy them; you shall make no covenant with them, and show no mercy to them. 3 You shall not make marriages with them, giving your daughters to their sons or taking their daughters for your sons. 4 For they would turn away your sons from following me, to serve other gods; then the anger of the Lord would be kindled against you, and he would destroy you quickly. 5 But thus shall you deal with them: you shall break down their altars, and dash in pieces their pillars, and hew down their Ashe'rim, and burn their graven images with fire."

You can't even make peace with them. That's barbaric.

Here's a prayer to Jesus:

Psalms 137

7 Lord, be sure to punish the Edomites for what they did
when Jerusalem was captured.
They shouted, “Destroy its buildings!
Pull them down to the ground!”
8 Babylon, you will be destroyed!
Bless the one who pays you back for what you did to us.
9 Bless the one who grabs your babies
and smashes them against a rock.

Here's the rules of war according to god Jesus:

1 Samuel 15
1 One day Samuel said to Saul, “The Lord sent me to anoint you king over his people Israel. Now listen to his message. 2 The Lord All-Powerful says: ‘When the Israelites came out of Egypt, the Amalekites tried to stop them from going to Canaan. I saw what the Amalekites did. 3 Now go fight against the Amalekites. You must completely destroy the Amalekites and everything that belongs to them. Don’t let anything live; you must kill all the men and women and all of their children and little babies. You must kill all of their cattle and sheep and all of their camels and donkeys.’”

4 Saul gathered the army together at Telaim. There were 200,000 foot soldiers and 10,000 other men, including the men from Judah. 5 Then Saul went to the city of Amalek and waited in the valley. 6 He said to the Kenites, “Go away! Leave the Amalekites. Then I won’t destroy you with the Amalekites. You showed kindness to the Israelites when they came out of Egypt.” So the Kenites left the Amalekites.

7 Saul defeated the Amalekites. He fought them and chased them all the way from Havilah to Shur, at the border of Egypt. 8 Agag was the king of the Amalekites. Saul captured Agag alive. Saul let Agag live, but he killed all the men in Agag’s army. 9 Saul and the Israelite soldiers felt bad about destroying everything. So they let Agag live. They also kept the fat cattle, the best sheep, and the lambs. They kept everything that was worth keeping. They didn’t want to destroy those things. They destroyed only what was not worth keeping.

That'll do for now. Please feel free to post 3 violent verses from the Qur'an and include the context as I did along with the translation being used. I got your Bible verses from BibleGateway.com: A searchable online Bible in over 150 versions and 50 languages.

I'm certainly not denying that there is violence in the bible.....frankly I think the bible is a horrible book too. However, the Bible is different than the Quran in that it is such a long text by so many different authors that it's a lot easier to cherry pick the good parts. By contrast the Quran is a much shorter text, by a single author that advocates for war against the unbeliever on almost every page.

 

[DavidFirth]

You made a statement saying,

"I am unaware of any mainstream religious text that promotes more violence than the Quran."

What's more violent than the following commandments from god Jesus..

Deuteronomy 7
1 “When the Lord your God brings you into the land which you are entering to take possession of it, and clears away many nations before you, the Hittites, the Gir'ga****es, the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Per'izzites, the Hivites, and the Jeb'usites, seven nations greater and mightier than yourselves, 2 and when the Lord your God gives them over to you, and you defeat them; then you must utterly destroy them; you shall make no covenant with them, and show no mercy to them. 3 You shall not make marriages with them, giving your daughters to their sons or taking their daughters for your sons. 4 For they would turn away your sons from following me, to serve other gods; then the anger of the Lord would be kindled against you, and he would destroy you quickly. 5 But thus shall you deal with them: you shall break down their altars, and dash in pieces their pillars, and hew down their Ashe'rim, and burn their graven images with fire."

You can't even make peace with them. That's barbaric.

Here's a prayer to Jesus:

Psalms 137

7 Lord, be sure to punish the Edomites for what they did
when Jerusalem was captured.
They shouted, “Destroy its buildings!
Pull them down to the ground!”
8 Babylon, you will be destroyed!
Bless the one who pays you back for what you did to us.
9 Bless the one who grabs your babies
and smashes them against a rock.

Here's the rules of war according to god Jesus:

1 Samuel 15
1 One day Samuel said to Saul, “The Lord sent me to anoint you king over his people Israel. Now listen to his message. 2 The Lord All-Powerful says: ‘When the Israelites came out of Egypt, the Amalekites tried to stop them from going to Canaan. I saw what the Amalekites did. 3 Now go fight against the Amalekites. You must completely destroy the Amalekites and everything that belongs to them. Don’t let anything live; you must kill all the men and women and all of their children and little babies. You must kill all of their cattle and sheep and all of their camels and donkeys.’”

4 Saul gathered the army together at Telaim. There were 200,000 foot soldiers and 10,000 other men, including the men from Judah. 5 Then Saul went to the city of Amalek and waited in the valley. 6 He said to the Kenites, “Go away! Leave the Amalekites. Then I won’t destroy you with the Amalekites. You showed kindness to the Israelites when they came out of Egypt.” So the Kenites left the Amalekites.

7 Saul defeated the Amalekites. He fought them and chased them all the way from Havilah to Shur, at the border of Egypt. 8 Agag was the king of the Amalekites. Saul captured Agag alive. Saul let Agag live, but he killed all the men in Agag’s army. 9 Saul and the Israelite soldiers felt bad about destroying everything. So they let Agag live. They also kept the fat cattle, the best sheep, and the lambs. They kept everything that was worth keeping. They didn’t want to destroy those things. They destroyed only what was not worth keeping.

That'll do for now. Please feel free to post 3 violent verses from the Qur'an and include the context as I did along with the translation being used. I got your Bible verses from BibleGateway.com: A searchable online Bible in over 150 versions and 50 languages.

Your error of context is this: God gave those commandments you have quoted above. To disobey them would be sin.

Your Quran freely says that all who will not accept Islam must eventually be killed if they will not convert. Neither God or Jesus ever gave such a commandment.

 

[Muslim-UK]

Your Quran freely says that all who will not accept Islam must eventually be killed if they will not convert. Neither God or Jesus ever gave such a commandment.

Where?

 

[icehorse]

Where?

It's this sort of obvious obfuscation that helps give Islam a bad name. Do you really think that on this forum you can convince anyone that the Quran and/or the Hadith does not advocate for either the conversion of non-believers or their murders?

If your request is a sincere one then I have to sincerely ask you whether you've read the book yourself?

 

[DavidFirth]

Where?

Quran 9:5
But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

 

[DavidFirth]

Where?

Quran 2:193
And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers. — translated by Marmaduke Pickthall

 

[DavidFirth]

Quran 8:60-66

 

[Muslim-UK]

Quran 9:5
But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

I knew you would post that. You realise that applies to Mecca right? Had you posted verses 1 - 9 it would have been clear.

 

[Muslim-UK]

Quran 2:193
And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers. — translated by Marmaduke Pickthall

See again no context, why not post from verse 190?

 

[Muslim-UK]

Quran 8:60-66

8:55 The worst creatures in the sight of GOD are those who disbelieved; they cannot believe.
8:56 You reach agreements with them, but they violate their agreements every time; they are not righteous.
8:57 Therefore, if you encounter them in war, you shall set them up as a deterrent example for those who come after them, that they may take heed.
8:58 When you are betrayed by a group of people, you shall mobilize against them in the same manner. GOD does not love the betrayers.
8:59 Let not those who disbelieve think that they can get away with it; they can never escape.
8:60 You shall prepare for them all the power you can muster, and all the equipment you can mobilize, that you may frighten the enemies of GOD, your enemies, as well as others who are not known to you; GOD knows them. Whatever you spend in the cause of GOD will be repaid to you generously, without the least injustice.
8:61 If they resort to peace, so shall you, and put your trust in GOD. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient.
8:62 If they want to deceive you, then GOD will suffice you. He will help you with His support, and with the believers.
8:63 He has reconciled the hearts (of the believers). Had you spent all the money on earth, you could not reconcile their hearts. But GOD did reconcile them. He is Almighty, Most Wise.
8:64 O you prophet, sufficient for you is GOD and the believers who have followed you.
8:65 O you prophet, you shall exhort the believers to fight. If there are twenty of you who are steadfast, they can defeat two hundred, and a hundred of you can defeat a thousand of those who disbelieved. That is because they are people who do not understand.
8:66 Now (that many new people have joined you) GOD has made it easier for you, for He knows that you are not as strong as you used to be. Henceforth, a hundred steadfast believers can defeat two hundred, and a thousand of you can defeat two thousand by GOD's leave. GOD is with those who steadfastly persevere.

See how context shows Qur'an is not like your Bible, GOD commands Muslims to make peace even with those who break their treaties if they repent.

 

[Muslim-UK]

Quran 2:193
And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers. — translated by Marmaduke Pickthall

I'll give the context for you ...

2:190 You may fight in the cause of GOD against those who attack you, but do not aggress. GOD does not love the aggressors.
2:191 You may kill those who wage war against you, and you may evict them whence they evicted you. Oppression is worse than murder. Do not fight them at the Sacred Masjid, unless they attack you therein. If they attack you, you may kill them. This is the just retribution for those disbelievers.
2:192 If they refrain, then GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.
2:193 You may also fight them to eliminate oppression, and to worship GOD freely. If they refrain, you shall not aggress; aggression is permitted only against the aggressors.
2:194 During the Sacred Months, aggression may be met by an equivalent response. If they attack you, you may retaliate by inflicting an equitable retribution. You shall observe GOD and know that GOD is with the righteous.
2:195 You shall spend in the cause of GOD; do not throw yourselves with your own hands into destruction. You shall be charitable; GOD loves the charitable.
2:196 You shall observe the complete rites of Hajj and`Umrah for GOD. If you are prevented, you shall send an offering, and do not resume cutting your hair until your offering has reached its destination. If you are ill, or suffering a head injury (and you must cut your hair), you shall expiate by fasting, or giving to charity, or some other form of worship. During the normal Hajj, if you break the state of Ihraam (sanctity) between `Umrah and Hajj, you shall expiate by offering an animal sacrifice. If you cannot afford it, you shall fast three days during Hajj and seven when you return home - this completes ten - provided you do not live at the Sacred Masjid. You shall observe GOD, and know that GOD is strict in enforcing retribution.

Remember we are comparing to:

Deut 7:2 and when the Lord your God gives them over to you, and you defeat them; then you must utterly destroy them; you shall make no covenant with them, and show no mercy to them. <<< NO peace, NO mercy

Context: Is Islam peaceful?