Is Islam Responsible for the Charlie Hebdo Murders?

[leibowde84]

In Afghanistan another innocent person was beaten to death for burning the Quran, Koran or however you spell it. There's a video of a guy burning the Koran in honor of the poor woman who was murdered by Islamic religious fanatics. Today I burned a Koran and will burn another one tomorrow. The Koran is just about the dumbest collection of untrue stories there is or ever was and Mohammad never even existed.

Muhammad never existed, huh? Care to provide some evidence for that?

 

[leibowde84]

In Afghanistan another innocent person was beaten to death for burning the Quran, Koran or however you spell it. There's a video of a guy burning the Koran in honor of the poor woman who was murdered by Islamic religious fanatics. Today I burned a Koran and will burn another one tomorrow. The Koran is just about the dumbest collection of untrue stories there is or ever was and Mohammad never even existed.

See ... although this is an extremely insensitive and ignorant point of view, even it is not nearly any kind of justification for violent retribution. To me, it would be ludicrous to think otherwise.

 

[Theweirdtophat]

I can partially agree, but then the Quran does contain some elements that could be considered morally questionable by today's global standards. Therefore I wouldn't say that it's a perfectly neutral ideology. It has a certain potential or propensity to be a little more prone to attract violent and misguided personal interpretations.

The fact that violent Islamists can quote (misguidedly, but still quote) passages from the Quran on Jihad, etc, that justify (again misguidedly) their violent actions, sort of proves this.

If you look at the violent actions of the Buddhist Nationalists in Burma/Myanmar - they could not possibly quote a single word from The Buddha, or from the Pali Canon or Buddhist Mahayana Sutras, that could reasonably be claimed to justify their actions. You won't hear these people attacking people with sticks (as they have been) while shouting "Om mani padme hum"! ....... so although there are some 'violent Buddhists' in the world - they can't use Buddhism or it's teachings to justify their violence, whereas violent Islamists can quite comfortably find words in the Quran that they can radicalize or distort to justify violence.

You can use just about anything to justify your actions. Religions don't make anybody do anything.

Every religion is going to have it's violent folks. What about violent pagans, namely some heathen groups which are neo nazi eqseu white supremacists. You can just make up justifications. Some people will believe it because they allow their minds to be warped. Islam has had bloodshed in the past just like every other religion but more Muslims are peaceful than violent. They see it on the news and just assume all Muslims are like that when its not true. Most Muslims don't do that. Most people in GENERAL don't do those things.

 

[Bodhitharta]

I'm sorry, but the cartoons were completely legal and the brutal murders were not. That means it was criminal retribution for legal behavior. No one has the right to be free from being offended, and we should never start accepting reactions like this. People who justify these murders should be ridiculed and pointed out as not in line with Islamic values. While that is happening in some instances, it is not happening nearly enough.

You miss my point, slavery in the US was legal as well as Racism...Murders unjustly murdering minorities in the US were sanctioned since it's inception so it is not a matter of justification because it is not in line with Islamic values but is perfectly aligned with most human values. This is why that particular event disturbs you so much a lot more people have gotten unjustly killed or bombed for far less

 

[Bodhitharta]

In Afghanistan another innocent person was beaten to death for burning the Quran, Koran or however you spell it. There's a video of a guy burning the Koran in honor of the poor woman who was murdered by Islamic religious fanatics. Today I burned a Koran and will burn another one tomorrow. The Koran is just about the dumbest collection of untrue stories there is or ever was and Mohammad never even existed.

If you do something disrespectful that you are most certain will cause a violent reaction why be surprised when the violence happens? It's like saying to a woman "hay you look so fat in those jeans" you could do it, but that doesn't make it a good idea

 

[leibowde84]

You miss my point, slavery in the US was legal as well as Racism...Murders unjustly murdering minorities in the US were sanctioned since it's inception so it is not a matter of justification because it is not in line with Islamic values but is perfectly aligned with most human values. This is why that particular event disturbs you so much a lot more people have gotten unjustly killed or bombed for far less

"unjustly murdering minorities in the US were sanctioned since it's inception"

- What do you mean by this specifically?

 

[Bodhitharta]

False ... some atheists have been responsible for atrocities. A lack of belief cannot be "responsible" for any acts of violence. It is a logical impossibility that is often incorrectly used as a means of fraudulent attack. Atheism is merely a lack of belief in any deity ... nothing more. It does not order behavior or expect anything. You can say that communism has been responsible for some pretty bad stuff, but, obviously, communism is a system of government. And, like any system of beliefs, members of it have been responsible for atrocities, but it is ludicrous to hold the a simple lack of belief responsible for that without any supporting evidence.

You are merely changing the meaning of the word "Atheism" to fit your argument.

It seems you have answered the question to the entire thread just replace the word Atheism with Islam and the phrase "lack of belief" to "belief"
And people do change the meaning of Islam to fit their argument

 

[leibowde84]

You miss my point, slavery in the US was legal as well as Racism...Murders unjustly murdering minorities in the US were sanctioned since it's inception so it is not a matter of justification because it is not in line with Islamic values but is perfectly aligned with most human values. This is why that particular event disturbs you so much a lot more people have gotten unjustly killed or bombed for far less

There is no legal murder in the US, as murder requires unlawfulness. "Murder" is a legal term defined as an "unlawful premeditated killing of another human being." A "sanctioned murder" is a logical impossibility, as it would be self-contradicting. So, I'm having trouble understanding what exactly you are referring to.

 

[leibowde84]

It seems you have answered the question to the entire thread just replace the word Atheism with Islam and the phrase "lack of belief" to "belief"
And people do change the meaning of Islam to fit their argument

The question of this thread was not "Is Islam Responsible for the CH murders." Although that is the title of the thread, the question actually asked in the OP is this:

"Was Charlie Hebdo a target because of Islamic Ideology."

Thus, the question is not blaming Islam in general, but, rather, specific Islamic Ideologies.

 

[Theweirdtophat]

If you do something disrespectful that you are most certain will cause a violent reaction why be surprised when the violence happens? It's like saying to a woman "hay you look so fat in those jeans" you could do it, but that doesn't make it a good idea

I'm afraid it doesn't matter. Burning a book should never cause such a savage reaction. I mean they acted like that was the only copy of the Quran in the entire world or that was the original quran. Although even if it was it shouldn't matter because a book is not worth someone's life.

 

[leibowde84]

It seems you have answered the question to the entire thread just replace the word Atheism with Islam and the phrase "lack of belief" to "belief"
And people do change the meaning of Islam to fit their argument

The question of this thread was not "Is Islam Responsible for the CH murders." Although that is the title of the thread, the question actually asked in the OP is this:

If you do something disrespectful that you are most certain will cause a violent reaction why be surprised when the violence happens? It's like saying to a woman "hay you look so fat in those jeans" you could do it, but that doesn't make it a good idea

Of course not, never said it was. I even think a fair fight (obviously not in your example) might be OK, as in get in the cartoonist's face and demand an apology or punch him in the face. But they murdered them in cold-blood without giving them any chance to defend themselves. It is completely cowardly, no matter how you cut it.

And, even in your example, would you expect the woman to wait until you were at work, grab a gun, and murder you in cold-blood for insulting her?

 

[leibowde84]

I'm afraid it doesn't matter. Burning a book should never cause such a savage reaction. I mean they acted like that was the only copy of the Quran in the entire world or that was the original quran. Although even if it was it shouldn't matter because a book is not worth someone's life.

I think he was referring to the CH murders, but still a valid point. No book, symbol, prophet, etc. is worth someone's life.

 

[Theweirdtophat]

I never understood why people care about seeing Bibles, Qurans or some other religious text being burned. It's an idea. You can't destroy ideas. And besides we have the internet but even if you destroyed that, the idea is out. Why does one care if they burn their own Quran. It's their property.

 

[jonathan180iq]

If you do something disrespectful that you are most certain will cause a violent reaction why be surprised when the violence happens? It's like saying to a woman "hay you look so fat in those jeans" you could do it, but that doesn't make it a good idea

Should that woman then turn around and eat the man who called her fat, just to show him how wrong he was?

If the burning of a book is such a holy offense, then what about all the hundreds of thousands of Korans that have ended up in the trash-can over the centuries? Surely we don't believe that every Koran ever written is still in existence, do we? What about the ones that have been lost? What about the ones that have been forgotten behind some furniture and rotted away? At what point does a piece of paper with words on it become holy? Does it happen when the wood is soaking in it's salt bath or sometime during or after being pulverized? Oh, or maybe it happens when the sheets are first printed...But that doesn't make any sense because what's to distinguish which page is going to be used in a Koran and which page is going to be used in some other work of fiction? Does it happen when the first letter of the first word is printed on the page, or when the last word is printed? Is just a bundle of printed pages holy before the cover is bound to it by a large machine? Is the glue that holds the cover wrap to the cardboard cover also holy? What about the generic thread that weaves the little touches on the binding? Is that holy too? During the shipping process, when all of these holy books are just sitting in the dark, in a shipping container, is that shipping container made holy by association? What of the ship captain? What of the printing companies many warehouses and factories? What of the store clerk who puts them on the shelves? How far does holiness extend, and when does it start? If burning a book is worthy of death, then the world needs answers to all of these questions!

 

[Theweirdtophat]

If they find it offensive, it's better if they ignored it. All of this violence does not make Islam look good. Most Muslims however are decent folk but this just makes them look bad. The ones who do bad things in the name of Islam, how can they be expected to be respected when they do this? It's crazy.

 

[leibowde84]

I never understood why people care about seeing Bibles, Qurans or some other religious text being burned. It's an idea. You can't destroy ideas. And besides we have the internet but even if you destroyed that, the idea is out. Why does one care if they burn their own Quran. It's their property.

It seems like there is this hidden paranoia with people questioning or insulting Islam. I mean, in the US (which is my only 1st hand knowledge of this apart from my travels), I see and hear derogatory prejudiced comments and publications on a regular basis. But, they surely aren't only against Islam. To tell you the truth, recently there seems to be a lot more antisemitism than anti-Islamic propaganda going around. But, it seems like Islam has this pride that requires it's adherents to stick up for it. If someone insults their faith, many Muslims feel it is required of them to react. But, that is exactly what the authors want. It's ironic really.

 

[leibowde84]

If they find it offensive, it's better if they ignored it. All of this violence does not make Islam look good. Most Muslims however are decent folk but this just makes them look bad. The ones who do bad things in the name of Islam, how can they be expected to be respected when they do this? It's crazy.

I agree, but what about the people (even on this site) that think that, because the cartoonists were warned at CH, the murders were somehow justified. I still cannot get my head around that concept. If you threaten someone's life for not adhering to your political/religious wishes, you are nothing more than a terrorist/bully. Ignoring something like that takes real maturity.

 

[Theweirdtophat]

It's true. They act like bullies about it. Why can't they ignore what others do to their Quran or what others say about their beliefs? Haven't they ever heard of turning the other cheek? They should think of it as a test from Allah. That if they react violently, then they've already failed the test.

 

[leibowde84]

It's true. They act like bullies about it. Why can't they ignore what others do to their Quran or what others say about their beliefs? Haven't they ever heard of turning the other cheek? They should think of it as a test from Allah. That if they react violently, then they've already failed the test.

The problem is that many of them seem to think that Allah is testing them in that they will be punished if they ignore insults of this nature. What ever happened to the honor in being the bigger person?

 

[Bodhitharta]

The question of this thread was not "Is Islam Responsible for the CH murders." Although that is the title of the thread, the question actually asked in the OP is this:

"Was Charlie Hebdo a target because of Islamic Ideology."

Thus, the question is not blaming Islam in general, but, rather, specific Islamic Ideologies.

On the contrary, if that were the case it blame specific "ideologies" and not use the term Islamic Ideologies, much of this anger is political and cultural ideology
there is nothing in the Quran that supports killing people who make fun of the Prophet. In American culture you are more likely to get away with it but in some ways even in American culture today you could lose your entire financial life or career simply with an off the cuff remark about minorites, gays or women. So the killing part is cultural and political it doesn't reflect the teachings of Islam even remotely