Is Islam "untrue"?

[29dall]

If so, how do you back your argument?

Hello there everyone. I'd like to start by explaining a bit about myself, so you guys can understand what kind of debate i want to start.

I am a 19 year old muslim. I've just finished high-school (I don't live in the states, but this is the closest analogy).
I love science, especially chemistry. I am very scientific minded, which people often find strange, given that I am a converted muslim. Besides science, I also love philosophy, which actually is how I got into Islam in the first place.

I have been a muslim for about a year now. I converted because (this is not the sole reason, more of a final push) I had an online chat with an Imam (I live in a country with not that many mosques, so i have to seek information online).
My whole life I believed that science and philosophy could easily dismiss religion. However, during my chat with this Imam, I realized that is not quite the truth. I tried to plead my case, and the Imam defended himself very good.
So now, I was in a position where I could neither deny or confirm the truth of the religion. The rest of the story is irrelevant.

What I'd like to achieve with this debate is not necessarily a conclusion.
I hope to achieve greater clarity to wether or not my religion can be dismissed either with logical deduction or scientific proof.
I do not believe in anything other than the Quran, however feel free to discuss other Islamic scriptures and so on.
One thing that I try to live by, is to stay critical of all things. This includes my own religion. And that's the reason for this debate
I hope we can keep it scientific, reasonable and respectfull (for all, not only religious people).

(P.S. sorry if the intro was a bit long :sleep:, but I felt like you guys needed to know something about my background, in order to understand the debate )

EDIT: Sorry I don't know if this is the right topic, otherwise I apologize. I just thought that the Islam DIR, was more for people who actually believe in Islam, whereas I hope people of all faith (and none faith ) will join this debate.

 

[apophenia]

So now, I was in a position where I could neither deny or confirm the truth of the religion. The rest of the story is irrelevant. )

So if you can neither confirm nor deny, why did you convert to Islam ?

Can you confirm or deny buddhism, or Thelema, or gnosticism ?

I don't see how being unable to confirm or deny would mean that you affirm a particular belief. If you had a similar conversation with an Australian aboriginal elder, would you then believe dreamtime teachings ?

 

[29dall]

Well, partly because of the so called "scientific miracles" of the Quran. Also historians have proven that the Quran is the only holy scripture, which has not been altered throughout history.

 

[arthra]

Well I don't think there's anything wrong with thinking your religion is true.. Most people who identify with their religion would probably agree with you.

I would caution using "science" per se as a litmus test for religion... Ethics alright but science by itself changes periodically and so do the textbooks so trying to equate spiritual truth with science may not work so well.

Also trying to apply logic by itself to religion may not work very well.. I'd refer you to the story in the Qur'an where Moses and Khidr are traveling along together.

But anyway I want to congratulate you on finding Islam and hope that you will continue to grow spiritually over time...

Oh and welcome to the Forum!

 

[danieldemol]

Australia rocks!

 

[Riverwolf]

Welcome to the Forum.

Rather than calling it "untrue", as I don't like labelling the truth or falsehood of religions, rather I'd prefer to give my own reasons for why I'm not a Muslim.

Really, it's simply because the model of monotheism doesn't make sense to me, while polytheism seems to hold more water. Furthermore, I've always believed in the Divine Feminine, and so have always thought that if there is a Supreme Deity, it's more likely female (... at least in the sense that the Earth is female.)

Plus, my meditations have led me to conclusions and realizations that, frankly, contradict much of what I've read in the Qur'an.

If you don't mind me asking, where do you live?

 

[danieldemol]

...Historians have proven that the Quran is the only holy scripture, which has not been altered throughout history.

That is not true, here is another one, I challenge you to read it, analyse it, and find any proof that it has been modified since it was written;

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Book of Certitude, Pages 3-41

Kind regards

 

[29dall]

arthra, the story you refer to is actually from the Hadith. As I stated, I only believe in what the Quran says

 

[Riverwolf]

That is not true, here is another one, I challenge you to read it, analyse it, and find any proof that it has been modified since it was written;

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Book of Certitude, Pages 3-41

Kind regards

To be perfectly fair, Baha'i scripture hasn't been around long.

Now if you want something REALLY impressive... once the Vedas were standardized, which didn't happen later than 600 BCE and likely earlier, they didn't change.

 

[29dall]

That is not true, here is another one, I challenge you to read it, analyse it, and find any proof that it has been modified since it was written;

Kind regards

I must admit, I'm not at all up to that challenge I'd be more likely to find historians that will back it up and some who don't, and compare arguments.
Normally I cross reference what I know, but I must admit I can't find the source of my information. Sorry, maybe you are right, but I will certainly look into it later!
Your input is much appreciated.

 

[29dall]

Welcome to the Forum.

Thank you very much

If you don't mind me asking, where do you live?

I live in Denmark

 

[Riverwolf]

Thank you very much

I live in Denmark

I see. ^_^

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I personally believe Islam to hold little truth from God.

One test you could try on any religion... is to ask if its teachings seems reasonable even with out reference to its main scripture?
Do they seem as reasonable today, as when they were first propounded?
Do they require adherence to fixed unaltered Authority?
Have they the ability to adapt to new circumstances?
Are the teachings open ended so as to apply as concepts rather than specifics?
Do the teachings encourage fairness equality and justice to everyone, of what ever faith, sexuality, colour or political view?
Does it allow God and its beliefs and customs to be defended with violence?

It would seem to me that Islam fails in all these areas.

Other even more fundamental questions include ...
Was Mohamed a true prophet?
Is the Quran the word of God?

 

[illykitty]

I don't see Islam as untrue, I said my shahada before but... I felt uneasy after some time. Islam conflicted with what I felt was right and things didn't make much sense to me (either ethical, moral or logical). Also reading about the other Abrahamic religions made me realise there was some conflicts I had trouble getting around. My mind was constantly making mental gymnastics to rationalise everything.

But with all that said, I believe that maybe there's a religion or spirituality or truth that is for each person. Whatever makes you a better person is what is true to you. We all have an ideal (not perfect but close) to aspire to and to reach it, we have to take different roads because we are different people.

In the end, I don't think it matters which religion one follows, but that's my opinion... And I could be entirely missing the mark. But I feel from deity that it wants us to be the best we can and which road we take isn't as important as the result.

I hope I conveyed what I meant without making it sound like fluffy wishful new-age thinking.

 

[29dall]

I personally believe Islam to hold little truth from God.

One test you could try on any religion... is to ask if its teachings seems reasonable even with out reference to its main scripture?
Do they seem as reasonable today, as when they were first propounded?
Do they require adherence to fixed unaltered Authority?
Have they the ability to adapt to new circumstances?
Are the teachings open ended so as to apply as concepts rather than specifics?
Do the teachings encourage fairness equality and justice to everyone, of what ever faith, sexuality, colour or political view?
Does it allow God and its beliefs and customs to be defended with violence?

It would seem to me that Islam fails in all these areas.

Other even more fundamental questions include ...
Was Mohamed a true prophet?
Is the Quran the word of God?

I disagree. The Quran only encourages self defence, not to defend Islam with violence. I can't see how Islam fails in any of thoese areas actually.
As of the 2 last questions, I believe the Quran is the word of Allah, but I'm not quialified to answer wether Muhammad was true or not, other than it says so in the Quran.

 

[29dall]

I don't see Islam as untrue, I said my shahada before but... I felt uneasy after some time. Islam conflicted with what I felt was right and things didn't make much sense to me (either ethical, moral or logical). Also reading about the other Abrahamic religions made me realise there was some conflicts I had trouble getting around. My mind was constantly making mental gymnastics to rationalise everything.

But with all that said, I believe that maybe there's a religion or spirituality or truth that is for each person. Whatever makes you a better person is what is true to you. We all have an ideal (not perfect but close) to aspire to and to reach it, we have to take different roads because we are different people.

In the end, I don't think it matters which religion one follows, but that's my opinion... And I could be entirely missing the mark. But I feel from deity that it wants us to be the best we can and which road we take isn't as important as the result.

I hope I conveyed what I meant without making it sound like fluffy wishful new-age thinking.

I too reationalise everything all the time, because there are conflicts.
But I'm pretty sure I would do that in any case.

I believe the Quran is a guide to, how humans should behave in order to be the best they can be.
The Quran is for us, not for Allah. He made it, so we have a path to follow.
Whether we choose to or not, is our own decision.
He just wishes us to follow it, because it's best for us... If that makes any sense to you?

I am also curious as to what conflicted with what you think is right or wrong, and the things that didn't make sense. Please, elaborate if you will.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I disagree. The Quran only encourages self defence, not to defend Islam with violence. I can't see how Islam fails in any of thoese areas actually.
As of the 2 last questions, I believe the Quran is the word of Allah, but I'm not quialified to answer wether Muhammad was true or not, other than it says so in the Quran.

I was certain that you would disagree, and that is your privilege.
I would not hold the words of any author about himself as proof of anything.

You would have to believe that Muhammed was a true prophet dictating the Word of God, to believe the truth of Quran.
No document can prove the veracity of itself or its author.
It comes down to a question of personal Faith.

It would do no harm to think about those questions a little more, to see why we differ so much in our understanding of them.

 

[29dall]

I was certain that you would disagree, and that is your privilege.
I would not hold the words of any author about himself as proof of anything.

You would have to believe that Muhammed was a true prophet dictating the Word of God, to believe the truth of Quran.
No document can prove the veracity of itself or its author.
It comes down to a question of personal Faith.

It would do no harm to think about those questions a little more, to see why we differ so much in our understanding of them.

My issue is, that I have no realfeedback. Apparantly the people i hang around either don't give a ****, or is too ignorant to actually give me some food for thoughts. I think about these things all the time, so I don't think I need to think about it more. I just need some real debating.
Still I can't understand why we differ.

There are things said in the Quran, that Muhammad (or any other person) couldn't have known, as I also stated earlier (Might've been vague). This is the reason I believe only in the Quran, not the different Hadiths and so on. So, how did these things end up in the Quran, when no one knew about it? A extraordinary series of wild guesses, that just happened to be true?

 

[Riverwolf]

My issue is, that I have no realfeedback. Apparantly the people i hang around either don't give a ****, or is too ignorant to actually give me some food for thoughts. I think about these things all the time, so I don't think I need to think about it more. I just need some real debating.
Still I can't understand why we differ.

There are things said in the Quran, that Muhammad (or any other person) couldn't have known, as I also stated earlier (Might've been vague). This is the reason I believe only in the Quran, not the different Hadiths and so on. So, how did these things end up in the Quran, when no one knew about it? A extraordinary series of wild guesses, that just happened to be true?

Are you aware that much of the knowledge of the ancient world was lost when the Library of Alexandria burned?

We know that a Greek inventor had successfully made steam power over 2,000 years ago, and used it in a Temple to Apollo. Eratosthenes accurately measured the circumference of the Earth without ever leaving Alexandria circa 200 BCE. Furtheremore, in this world dominated by the Ptolemic Geocentric model of the universe, a small fragment of burnt paper was found in that library's ruins which states the exact opposite: that the Earth and all the other planets circled the sun.

So it's entirely possible that, living in a place such as Mecca, he would have heard all these things that people from a relatively close place in terms of geography knew.

 

[29dall]

Are you aware that much of the knowledge of the ancient world was lost when the Library of Alexandria burned?

We know that a Greek inventor had successfully made steam power over 2,000 years ago, and used it in a Temple to Apollo. Eratosthenes accurately measured the circumference of the Earth without ever leaving Alexandria circa 200 BCE. Furtheremore, in this world dominated by the Ptolemic Geocentric model of the universe, a small fragment of burnt paper was found in that library's ruins which states the exact opposite: that the Earth and all the other planets circled the sun.

So it's entirely possible that, living in a place such as Mecca, he would have heard all these things that people from a relatively close place in terms of geography knew.

I was aware that it burned and a lot was lost. However, I have failed to link the 2 things together. Very thought provoking. Though it is difficult to imagine things like, mountains under the ground, to be something they could've examined back then. But I must admit, that it is a very solid point you make.