Had USA done what it took to win the Vietnam
War, even more would've died in the escalation.
It would've meant killing many many more civilians
(IMO). And there was serious talk of nuclear weapons.
That would've turned out well.....NOT.
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Is Israel a Jewish State?
- Thread starter Nakosis
- Start date
War, even more would've died in the escalation.
It would've meant killing many many more civilians
(IMO). And there was serious talk of nuclear weapons.
That would've turned out well.....NOT.
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
Evacuate to where?
Do you think that the majority of world population are stupid?
..so what is their aim? What future do they envisage other than "rinse and repeat" ?
The IDF's disproportionate response has targeted refugee camps, hospitals, and areas designated as "safe zones" by Israel itself:
Israeli military says Gaza ground offensive has expanded into urban refugee camps
The military’s announcement of the new battle zone threatens further destruction in a war that Israel says will last for “many months” .
Israel continues strikes on humanitarian area in Gaza despite official designation
Israeli officials confirmed the strikes to ABC News, but maintained they were efforts to destroy Hamas militants and infrastructure within Palestinian neighborhoods.
Palestinians killed in Israeli strikes on designated 'safe zones’: An NBC News investigation
NBC News found Palestinians were killed in seven deadly airstrikes in areas of southern Gaza that the Israeli military had explicitly designated as safe zones.
If the disproportionate response didn't involve civilians, much less ones in "safe zones," that would be different, but it does, and that's exactly why it has been such an atrocity.
The US and its allies killed hundreds of thousands of civilians during that war, and the use of Agent Orange also caused many others to suffer disabilities and birth defects. If anything, I think that example demonstrates how killing and maiming civilians in such large numbers only leads to further radicalization and violence, as was the case when the US' actions caused more people to fight against its army. If "what it took to win" would have been even more destructive than that, then maybe "winning" should have been considered unrealistic in the first place. That would have spared hundreds of thousands, if not over a million, lives.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
To survive.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I'm not willing to debate this with you further. Things have been explained to you many times, not just by me, but by others, and you just don't want to here it. So here is my parting shot. If Hamas is in a hospital, the hospital becomes a legitimate target. Instead of blaming Israel, you need to go after Hamas, since using Human Shields is a war crime. Now, if you want to argue further, find someone else for it.
Just because I don't find the arguments convincing doesn't mean I haven't heard them or that I don't want to.
I prefer a third option: Holding both the IDF and Hamas accountable for their actions, since holding one accountable doesn't have to entail absolving the other. On the other hand, you're completely excusing the IDF instead of also giving it its share of accountability.
I have made my points too. I see nothing further to add here unless I keep repeating myself.
The whole point of Israel is to be a Jewish state, isn't it?
I don't see that as racism, personally; Jewish is a community and perhaps a nationality, but not an ethnic group as such.
I don't really like national identities (we are all far better off without them IMO), but Israel is only playing by the established rules by that perspective.
If anyone thinks of that as racism, I would like to hear their opinions about Islamic nations.
I don't see that as racism, personally; Jewish is a community and perhaps a nationality, but not an ethnic group as such.
I don't really like national identities (we are all far better off without them IMO), but Israel is only playing by the established rules by that perspective.
If anyone thinks of that as racism, I would like to hear their opinions about Islamic nations.
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
Well, we all have that aim.
..but we don't all go about it in the same way .. by oppressing others, and the use
of extreme force.
It is unsustainable .. eventually such policies will not succeed .. that is not any kind of threat,
it's just common sense.
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
Yes .. nothing wrong with that in itself.
Nations continually evolve, along with their population.
..but we all know how this particular Jewish state came to be, and how the native population
were expelled. THAT is the problem!
They want the land, but not the people.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
It's really very simple. Israelis want to be left alone. Stop the attacks intended to destroy the country, and everyone would live in peace.
Then stop illegal occupation of Palestinian land, stop allowing the terrorist settlers to steal the land of Palestinians with impunity while the IDF provides protection for the settlers, punish all Israeli servicemen who commit war crimes instead of letting them out of jail and making them beloved celebrities, stop the siege of Gaza, leave Lebanon, etc. Do those things and maybe people will start taking that ridiculous claim seriously.
The problem is that it is an artificially created ethnostate, like apartheid South Africa where a minority rules over or displaces the native majority and disenfranchises them. Such systems can only be upheld through brutality. It's not the same as the Irish naturally being the majority in Ireland, which is their homeland. But even that's not an ethnostate as an ethnostate inherently privileges an ethnic group over others, which "Israel" does.
That is not a consensus, though.
Far as I know, that is much more true of the USA, Brazil and the UK.
People are people. We do not sprout from the soil.
So you approve of letting an indigenous ethnic group be displaced and ethnically cleansed from its homeland so a bunch of foreign settlers can establish an ethnostate for themselves?
The US, Brazil and UK are not ethnostates. There's not even an American or Brazilian ethnicity. Those are nationalities. America doesn't even have an official language.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
This is simply the usual call for the destruction of Israel. It's not worthy of a reply. The destruction of Israel means returning Jews to a world that cannot be counted on to keep us safe. Not acceptable, and not going to happen. Take care.
Do you accept the rule of law or not? Do you accept the 1948 borders, the two state solution?
I noticed you have ignored several of my replies to you in this thread, even though I said nothing that can't be verified and provided links. It's just telling me you have no way of spinning what I say to your advantage here. It is making me tired of bothering replying to you, though, as I'm typing this all out on a phone.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I do want a two state solution. However, that is an impossibility so long as the Palestinians seek the destruction of Israel. Look what happened in Gaza. Israel in good faith withdrew, even moving Jewish settlers out of Gaza by force. And what happened? They elected a terrorist organization to govern them, and Gaza became the chief source of violence against Israel. So, Israel is not going to make the same mistake in the West Bank. Some day, when Palestinians can accept the reality of a Jewish state being there forever, then yes, absolutely a two state solution.
Because I'm not really in here to ARGUE about it. I drop in here from time to time to express my support for Israel (which is not the same thing as saying I support *everything* about Israel).
I have studied this conflict most of my life. There's really not going to be anything that someone can say to me that I haven't already heard, and I have no illusions that my comments are going to change their minds either.
So, knowing that I'm not in the game, if you don't want to spend time replying to me, that would make perfect sense.
Be well.
That's an irrational reaction to the other posters's
calling for an end to settlers stealing Palestinian land.
But Israel never really left Gaza. They have been controlling the movement of people and goods in Gaza since at least the 1990s:
"The restrictions on movement and goods in Gaza imposed by Israel date to the early 1990s. After Hamas took over in 2007, Israel significantly intensified existing movement restrictions and imposed a complete blockade on the movement of goods and people in and out of the Gaza Strip."
Blockade of the Gaza Strip - Wikipedia
They have sniper guard towers and fencing surrounding the Gaza Strip that put the Berlin Wall to shame (and those snipers get bored and like shooting civilians at times, like little kids), and they have armed military checkpoints that everyone must pass through inside and out, and Palestinians aren't allowed to go where they want. They also have advanced digital surveillance of communication in Gaza, they know everything everyone is saying. We've seen some of the scope of their capabilities with the beeper and radio terrorist attacks on Lebanon.
Nowhere to hide: The impact of Israel's digital surveillance regime on the Palestinians
Over the course of 2020 and 2021, groundbreaking investigations revealed in stark detail Israeli authorities’ intensifying use of surveillance and predictive technologies to police and control Palestinians. Subjecting Palestinians to such scrutiny from security and military apparatuses narrows...
And that's just Gaza, they've been establishing illegal settlements on legally Palestinian land since before that and all during that.
This kinda sorta comes off as an admission of collective punishment.
Oh, please, nothing is forever. All things are eventually swept away by the tides of time. No state or empire is eternal, no matter what hubris they espouse. Even the universe will die eventually.
You are arguing with people by posting rebuttals to those you disagree with. If you were just here to support Israel, you'd just make your post and leave it at that. I often do that with threads where I don't feel like arguing, and then I don't bother replying to it again.
I've studied this conflict for about most of my life, too. I wish I didn't have to. I wish I didn't have to see all those dead, mutilated and crushed babies that had bombs stamped with "USA" dropped on them, and all the white phosphorous dropped on schools that my tax dollars paid for just so your co-religionists can feel "safe".
So, sorry, you're very much in the game if you pay your taxes as an American (or British, or Canadian, or German, or Australian, etc. citizen). This is your atrocity, too.