Is Israel commiting war crimes? Urban warfare expert weighs in

[rosends]

No .. I didn't say Judaism was defined by Biblical Text - but subtle strawman fallacy on your part.

I didn't make that claim so you are arguing with a phantom. I said that you think Judaism is defined by "your understanding of the written biblical text" which you show when you attempt to invoke your personal concept of "Jewish Biblical Mandate." So no strawman. You made the claim to understanding a Jewish biblical mandate when you are limited in your source material to your reading (in translation) of the written biblical text.

.. What I said was that one aspect of the text was part of Judaism .. part of the ideology ... which is the concept of the infidel

Judaism has no concept of the "infidel" in this sense. Can you show me how you are defining "infidel" and show me sources in Jewish law that refer to it?

You then call what you refer to as "Your Belief" wierd .. refering to Lord YHWH as a xenophobic (aka the other) ethnic cleansing genocidal maniac - a flip floping God with the most petty and nasty of human characteristics.

Where do I refer to God by those terms? Can you show me where I endorse a belief in a God with human characteristics? Betcha can't.

and everything to do with how Lord YHWH is depicted in the Bible.

You mean based on your perception of a translation of written text.

You know what xenophobic means do you not ? Good .. then give me 3 examples of Lord YHWH's xenophobia.. and explain why this is your wierd belief .. not mine.

God isn't xenophobic. I'm not sure why you think God is. You just keep reusing words that project your ideas, not ones that reflect Judaism or Jewish thought.

 

[Sargonski]

I didn't make that claim so you are arguing with a phantom. I said that you think Judaism is defined by "your understanding of the written biblical text" which you show when you attempt to invoke your personal concept of "Jewish Biblical Mandate." So no strawman. You made the claim to understanding a Jewish biblical mandate when you are limited in your source material to your reading (in translation) of the written biblical text.



Judaism has no concept of the "infidel" in this sense. Can you show me how you are defining "infidel" and show me sources in Jewish law that refer to it?

Where do I refer to God by those terms? Can you show me where I endorse a belief in a God with human characteristics? Betcha can't.

You mean based on your perception of a translation of written text.

God isn't xenophobic. I'm not sure why you think God is. You just keep reusing words that project your ideas, not ones that reflect Judaism or Jewish thought.

I didn't invoke any Biblical mandate -- you are talking complete nonsense. Lord YHWH's xenophobia is not an interpretation .. the Holy Bible brags about it over and over.

Lord YHWH ordering the slaughter of people who worshiped other Gods .... is not my interpretation .. its what the Book says .. and there is no disagreement that Lord YHWH orders the slaughter of people who worshiped other Gods .. "the Other" "the Infidel"
Deut 13

12 If you hear it said about one of the towns the Lord your God is giving you to live in 13 that troublemakers have arisen among you and have led the people of their town astray, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods you have not known), 14 then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done among you, 15 you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. You must destroy it completely,[b] both its people and its livestock.

What is your translation of "You must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town" that has people not being slaughtered for worshiping other Gods .. because Lord YHWH is a Jealous God who doesn't want his Chosen people mixing with others.

Do you know what "xenophobia" means friend ? it means fear of those not like you .. folks that worship other Gods .. such that you are to go out and kill these people .. to kill the infidel ..

This has nothing to do with my interpretation of anything .. and everything to do with the fact that you simply do not know the Bible

Give us your non xenophobic translation of this passage friend .. where God doesn't command the killing of people on the basis that they are different from the "Chosen People" .. where God Doesn't command that Israelites are not to marry these "infidels" in other passages.

What is your definition of "infidel" .. perhaps this is the problem ..

Last - my apologies for assuming that your God was Lord YHWH -- is this not true ?

 

[rosends]

I didn't invoke any Biblical mandate

Really? Because those were your words from your post. Are you forgetting what you typed in post 189?

-- you are talking complete nonsense. Lord YHWH's xenophobia is not an interpretation .. the Holy Bible brags about it over and over.

No, it is your interpretation of the translated text you read.

Lord YHWH ordering the slaughter of people who worshiped other Gods .... is not my interpretation .. its what the Book says .. and there is no disagreement that Lord YHWH orders the slaughter of people who worshiped other Gods .. "the Other" "the Infidel"
Deut 13

No, specific people who, at the time, were not part of God's plan.

What is your translation of "You must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town" that has people not being slaughtered for worshiping other Gods .. because Lord YHWH is a Jealous God who doesn't want his Chosen people mixing with others.

It isn't an issue of translation. Deut 13:15 is talking about the Jewish residents of particular cities in Israel. If there are people there who were once very religious who choose to abandon Judaism, and try to influence others in the town to worship idols, they deserve the death penalty. If you don't really understand the text, you run the risk of drawing incorrect conclusions, which is what you did.

 

[Sargonski]

Yes… and 10,000 of them were Hamas militants and not “Palestinians”. And if it is invisible, it is because it is.

What a joke .. when reality conflicts with the "necessary illusion" just make up complete nonsense and all is good.

3500 of the dead are children mate .. and a whole lot of Christians - a bunch dead when Israel bombed the "Christian Chuch" in "South Gaza" in which they were sheltered.

guess all those babies on incubators were Hamas fighters as well aye mate.

Especially the children & infants, eh.
The utter lack of humanity, & blind
support for Israeli evil is astounding.

No kidding .. these self deception mental dynamics are astounding

 

[Revoltingest]

No, specific people who, at the time, were not part of God's plan.

It is also a common interpretation among
Christian fundies I've known, ie, kill'm all.
And regarding Jews, there are some people...

'Death to the Arabs' backers of settler violence now sit in heart of Israel's government | Opinion

***

www.haaretz.com

Israeli Extremist Group Chants 'Death To Arabs' During Jerusalem Protests

The group, Lehava, heightened recent unrest in the holy city, sparked by Israel's now-reversed decision to block Palestinians from praying there during Ramadan.

www.huffpost.com

At Jerusalem Flag March, chants of ‘Death to Arabs’ and assaults on Palestinians

Still, contentious event ends without major incident as thousands of religious nationalists participate; some attack Palestinians and reporters, sing 'May your village burn'

www.timesofisrael.com

Radical rabbi's followers rise in Israel amid new violence

In the 1980s, Rabbi Meir Kahane’s violent anti-Arab ideology was considered so repugnant that Israel banned him from parliament and the U.S. listed his party as a terrorist group.

apnews.com

BBC News | MIDDLE EAST | Rabbi calls for annihilation of Arabs

There are so very many more examples.

 

[rosends]

It is also a common interpretation among
Christian fundies I've known, ie, kill'm all.
And regarding Jews, there are some people...

'Death to the Arabs' backers of settler violence now sit in heart of Israel's government | Opinion

***

www.haaretz.com

Israeli Extremist Group Chants 'Death To Arabs' During Jerusalem Protests

The group, Lehava, heightened recent unrest in the holy city, sparked by Israel's now-reversed decision to block Palestinians from praying there during Ramadan.

www.huffpost.com

At Jerusalem Flag March, chants of ‘Death to Arabs’ and assaults on Palestinians

Still, contentious event ends without major incident as thousands of religious nationalists participate; some attack Palestinians and reporters, sing 'May your village burn'

www.timesofisrael.com

Radical rabbi's followers rise in Israel amid new violence

In the 1980s, Rabbi Meir Kahane’s violent anti-Arab ideology was considered so repugnant that Israel banned him from parliament and the U.S. listed his party as a terrorist group.

apnews.com

BBC News | MIDDLE EAST | Rabbi calls for annihilation of Arabs

There are so very many more examples.

weird how you take the statements by the extreme fringe of Jews and think that they represent Judaism in some authentic way but not the statements of other Jews who tell you differently. Do you think that the views of Hamas represent Islam. Do you think that those who espouse the ideas of Hamas represent a smaller or larger percentage of the entire of Gaza (or the Arab Muslim community) than those Jews constitute within Judaism?

Interestingly, you seem to be conflating Israel and Judaism but you don't really know about either one.

 

[Orbit]

weird how you take the statements by the extreme fringe of Jews and think that they represent Judaism in some authentic way but not the statements of other Jews who tell you differently. Do you think that the views of Hamas represent Islam. Do you think that those who espouse the ideas of Hamas represent a smaller or larger percentage of the entire of Gaza (or the Arab Muslim community) than those Jews constitute within Judaism?

Interestingly, you seem to be conflating Israel and Judaism but you don't really know about either one.

It's weird how there are so many "fringe Jews" to choose from, though. Is Netanyahu, who has suggested leveling Gaza and invoked the treatment of the Amalekites as the way that Israel should deal with Gaza, a "fringe Jew"?

 

[Revoltingest]

weird how you take the statements by the extreme fringe of Jews....

It's not just an extreme fringe.
At least half of Israeli Jews don't value Muslim lives.

Nearly half of Jewish Israelis want to expel Arabs, survey shows

Pew study finds 79% believe Jews should get preferential treatment over Arab citizens; number of those who believe settlements are helpful to Israel's security growing; majority identify as centrist

www.timesofisrael.com

Moreover, the "Death to Arabs" chants go unpunished,
while Muslims are strictly censored. It's called "apartheid".

and think that they represent Judaism in some authentic way but not the statements of other Jews who tell you differently. Do you think that the views of Hamas represent Islam. Do you think that those who espouse the ideas of Hamas represent a smaller or larger percentage of the entire of Gaza (or the Arab Muslim community) than those Jews constitute within Judaism?

Interestingly, you seem to be conflating Israel and Judaism but you don't really know about either one.

Well, Israel does trumpet itself as "The Jewish State".
And many Jews here in USA support Israeli policy,
& have for its entire history.

Poll finds strong support for Israel’s war effort among US Jews

Most Jewish Americans are following the developments in Middle East very closely, according to the poll.

www.reviewjournal.com

But to be fair, many Jews here see the light....

Survey: A quarter of US Jews agree that Israel 'is an apartheid state' - Jewish Telegraphic Agency

Agreement with harsh criticism of Israel was higher among Jewish voters under 40.

www.jta.org

Just One-Third of U.S. Jews Believe Israel Wants Peace with Palestine: Poll

A new, wide-ranging survey has revealed the opinions of U.S. Jews on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict with a minority of those surveyed believing Israel and Palestine seek peace amid their heightening conflicts.

www.newsweek.com

Perhaps is is you, who are the outlier?
Your views of Israel & of Judaism are really
just your own. There is diversity.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

If those horrific numbers are true one must keep in mind that Hamas planned it that way! They have always relied on sympathy from their supporters around the world who see the Jews as the expendable guilty party and the Palestinian terrorists as the victims.

It's not Hamas dropping the bombs, it's the IDF. I love how the war crimes apologists are seriously demanding we all believe that Israel is being forced to massacre civilians, as if they have no choice but to do what Hamas apparently wants?

 

[Revoltingest]

It's not Hamas dropping the bombs, it's the IDF. I love how the war crimes apologists are seriously demanding we all believe that Israel is being forced to massacre civilians, as if they have no choice but to do what Hamas apparently wants?

The question oft asked of Israel apologists is
what would Israel do if Hamas tunnels were
under Jewish homes?
I've yet to see any of them brave & candid
enuf to answer that one.
Obvioulsy, Israel's military would find ways
to battle Hamas with far greater precision.
We wouldn't see headlines like....
"Israel kills 11,000 Jews in bombing campaign."
Muslim lives are lesser things.

 

[rosends]

It's weird how there are so many "fringe Jews" to choose from, though. Is Netanyahu, who has suggested leveling Gaza and invoked the treatment of the Amalekites as the way that Israel should deal with Gaza, a "fringe Jew"?

are there "so many"? How many have you counted? And since you don't understand the Amalekite reference, why do you keep talking about it?

 

[Orbit]

are there "so many"? How many have you counted? And since you don't understand the Amalekite reference, why do you keep talking about it?

What makes you think I "don't understand" the Amalekite reference? Is it because you have some twisted religious apologetic that minimizes its obvious meaning?

For those not familiar with it:
1 Samuel 151 Samuel said to Saul, "I am the one the LORD sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the LORD.2 This is what the LORD Almighty says: `I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt.3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy [1] everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.'"4

 

[Revoltingest]

are there "so many"? How many have you counted? And since you don't understand the Amalekite reference, why do you keep talking about it?

You aren't in a position to accuse others
of not understanding. That ad hominem
isn't working for you.
It looks intolerant & sanctimonious. Stick
to arguments & evidence, & you'll fare
better.

 

[Left Coast]

The question oft asked of Israel apologists is
what would Israel do if Hamas tunnels were
under Jewish homes?
I've yet to see any of them brave & candid
enuf to answer that one.

For this analogy to make any sense, we'd have to imagine a scenario where two groups of Jews were in a civil war against one another and one was ideologically committed to eradicating the other and had just committed a massive terrorist attack against the other. In such a scenario, yes, I absolutely see the second Jewish group using Israel's current approach against the first.

So, am I "brave and candid" enough now? Can we throw that ad hom in the trash where it belongs?

 

[rosends]

It's not just an extreme fringe.
At least half of Israeli Jews don't value Muslim lives.

Nearly half of Jewish Israelis want to expel Arabs, survey shows

Pew study finds 79% believe Jews should get preferential treatment over Arab citizens; number of those who believe settlements are helpful to Israel's security growing; majority identify as centrist

www.timesofisrael.com

The 5600 people asked were not given any distinction between citizens and not, so many were speaking of expelling "Palestinians" not citizens. Or maybe they weren't -- there is no way to know.

Moreover, the "Death to Arabs" chants go unpunished,
while Muslims are strictly censored. It's called "apartheid".

That's not actually apartheid, but whatever.

Well, Israel does trumpet itself as "The Jewish State".
And many Jews here in USA support Israeli policy,
& have for its entire history.

Poll finds strong support for Israel’s war effort among US Jews

Most Jewish Americans are following the developments in Middle East very closely, according to the poll.

www.reviewjournal.com

Ah, so it is ok to connect Judaism and Israel. Therefore anti-Israel means, um...

But to be fair, many Jews here see the light....

Survey: A quarter of US Jews agree that Israel 'is an apartheid state' - Jewish Telegraphic Agency

Agreement with harsh criticism of Israel was higher among Jewish voters under 40.

www.jta.org

Just One-Third of U.S. Jews Believe Israel Wants Peace with Palestine: Poll

A new, wide-ranging survey has revealed the opinions of U.S. Jews on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict with a minority of those surveyed believing Israel and Palestine seek peace amid their heightening conflicts.

www.newsweek.com

Gosh -- people believe something? And their opinions are collected in an article? That must mean that Judaism as a religion teaches something and not just that people have opinions.

Perhaps is is you, who are the outlier?
Your views of Israel & of Judaism are really
just your own. There is diversity.

Since I live in an area full of more Jews than you probably do and have more interaction each day with a variety of "types" of Jews than you do, I would suggest that my views are more reflective of Judaism than you might want to believe.

 

[metis]

Colonialism, and how it was accomplished, is at the root of the conflict.

Except there was always a Jewish presence in Palestine, so don't they count? On top of that, the boundaries were drawn by Europeans, not the actual inhabitants.

 

[rosends]

You aren't in a position to accuse others
of not understanding.

Really? As I speak Hebrew and have studied the source material (and am an orthodox rabbi) I would suggest I AM in a position to tell others that they don't understand what a man speaking hebrew and citing a particular phrase is talking about.

That ad hominem
isn't working for you.

There was no ad hominem. Pointing out that someone doesn't understand is not an attack on the person, but on the person's knowledge.

It looks intolerant & sanctimonious.

Do you think I care how it looks?

Stick
to arguments & evidence, & you'll fare
better.

Maybe ask people to stick to discussing what they actually know about instead of making outrageous claims that bespeak ignorance. Just a suggestion.

 

[Orbit]

Except there was always a Jewish presence in Palestine, so don't they count? On top of that, the boundaries were drawn by Europeans, not the actual inhabitants.

Well, if you think about it, the colonialism involved comes with European in-migration after the Balfour Declaration, and it accelerated over time. I never said there weren't Jews who were indigenous to the region. An Israeli friend of my husband refers to this split as "hummus Jews" and "pastrami Jews".

 

[rosends]

What makes you think I "don't understand" the Amalekite reference? Is it because you have some twisted religious apologetic that minimizes its obvious meaning?

Because of how he used it. He never equated individuals or used the reference as a source to support killing anyone. So, no, you don't understand what he said and what it meant.

For those not familiar with it:
1 Samuel 151 Samuel said to Saul, "I am the one the LORD sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the LORD.2 This is what the LORD Almighty says: `I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt.3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy [1] everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.'"4

Um, yeah, so? That's not actually what he quoted.

 

[metis]

Parenthetically, I recall from some of your previous posts that you're a pacifist and a supporter of Gandhi. How does that factor into your views on Israel's approach to the war so far?

I was never a pacifist and, yes, I generally do take many of the positions of Gandhi, but I also do believe in self-defense, including at the national level.