Is Israel commiting war crimes? Urban warfare expert weighs in

[Lyndon]

Here's a slightly different set of definitions:

Definition of INFIDEL

one who is not a Christian or who opposes Christianity; an unbeliever with respect to a particular religion; one who acknowledges no religious belief… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

Now I'll ask a question -- if Israel gives equal rights to Muslims, protects their right to worship (even when it limits the rights of Jews) and when it protects other religions and their rights as well, do you think that they apply your concept of "infidel" to them? Are you using the broadest definition of an English word related to religion and claiming it has a particular value within Judaism as a religion (not Israel as a country)? How familiar are you with Judaism? If you think it is a concept within Judaism, why not give me its Hebrew term and maybe the Jewish sources which discuss it?

the derogatory term we're thinking of is goyim not infidel

 

[Orbit]

It was "recolonization" largely due to heavy persecution in Europe and Asia. Many Jews never left Palestine, so there always was some presence there.

Colonialism is colonialism. By your logic, the Native Americans have the right to the USA because they were "here first" and some never left. If they exercised that "right" by "re-colonizing" the USA, creating a sovereign state where there was none before, it would create problems. Surely you can see that the Balfour Declaration, and the massive in-migration from Europe that resulted, caused problems in the region.

 

[Revoltingest]

the derogatory term we're thinking of is goyim not infidel

I prefer "infidel" because the connotation
of loathing applies to Israel's view of Muslims.
Also, "infidel" is most often associated with
usage by Muslims towards others, so this is
for irony.
BTW, "goy" is also derogatory.

goyim

Definition, Synonyms, Translations of goyim by The Free Dictionary

www.thefreedictionary.com

 

[Revoltingest]

Colonialism is colonialism. By your logic, the Native Americans have the right to the USA because they were "here first" and some never left. If they exercised that "right" by "re-colonizing" the USA, creating a sovereign state where there was none before, it would create problems. Surely you can see that the Balfour Declaration, and the massive in-migration from Europe that resulted, caused problems in the region.

Isn't it odd how a few Israel apologists admit that
Israel is acting wrongfully, yet they defend the acts.

 

[Kenny]

Isn't it odd how a few Israel apologists admit that
Israel is acting wrongfully, yet they defend the acts.

Not odd at all. This isn’t a pasteurized and homogenized group of people.

What is very telling is this:

First, lies and then “i plead the fifth"

 

[metis]

Colonialism is colonialism. By your logic, the Native Americans have the right to the USA because they were "here first" and some never left. If they exercised that "right" by "re-colonizing" the USA, creating a sovereign state where there was none before, it would create problems. Surely you can see that the Balfour Declaration, and the massive in-migration from Europe that resulted, caused problems in the region.

You're missing the points by walking around them.

And the NA were here first, so it was rightfully "theirs". So, if you're not an Amerindian, maybe to back to where you belong.

BTW, I'm a Me'tis, so part of me can stay here. Still trying to figure out how to do that.

 

[Orbit]

You're missing the points by walking around them.

And the NA were here first, so it was rightfully "theirs". So, if you're not an Amerindian, maybe to back to where you belong.

BTW, I'm a Me'tis, so part of me can stay here. Still trying to figure out how to do that.

This is kind of my point, though. If the Native Americans said "we were here first!", and drove the current inhabitants of the U.S. into a small area so that the Natives could create a nation-state of their own, don't you think that would create problems? It's not walking around the point, it *is* the point. Colonialism, and how it was accomplished, is at the root of the conflict.

 

[rosends]

It doesn't reflect the reality
of Israel's apartheid.

Except that there is no apartheid.

 

[rosends]

the derogatory term we're thinking of is goyim not infidel

That means "nations" and is used to refer these days to people who aren't Jewish, like "gentile." I guess that's derogatory also.

 

[Orbit]

Except that there is no apartheid.

That's an interesting assertion that flies in the face of reality.

Israel's apartheid against Palestinians

Palestinians are systematically subjected to home demolitions and forced evictions, and live in constant fear of losing their homes. For more than 73 years, Israel has been forcibly displacing entire Palestinian communities. Hundreds of thousands of Palestinians’ homes have been demolished...

www.amnesty.org

Israel is not a state of all its citizens… [but rather] the nation-state of the Jewish people and only them
Israel’s then prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu (message posted online in March 2019)

 

[Revoltingest]

Except that there is no apartheid.

We've no common ground
on either values or reality.

 

[rosends]

That's an interesting assertion that flies in the face of reality.

Israel's apartheid against Palestinians

Palestinians are systematically subjected to home demolitions and forced evictions, and live in constant fear of losing their homes. For more than 73 years, Israel has been forcibly displacing entire Palestinian communities. Hundreds of thousands of Palestinians’ homes have been demolished...

www.amnesty.org

No, it just reflects that people don't know what apartheid is. Did you know that Canadians can't vote in the US?

Have you really considered what Bibi said (and which got him roundly criticized within Israel by others in government)? It was also reported that "the prime minister said Arab citizens have equal rights under the law". So there goes your claim of apartheid.

 

[rosends]

We've no common ground
on either values or reality.

This seems to be true and sad.

 

[Debater Slayer]

It was "recolonization" largely due to heavy persecution in Europe and Asia. Many Jews never left Palestine, so there always was some presence there.

Many Jews indeed never left Palestine, but many also came from abroad and settled in the place of the 700,000+ Palestinians who were expelled from their homes and land. I think any peace negotiations will have to directly address this history.

For clarity, I'm for a two-state solution and believe what matters the most is what Israeli and Palestinian leaders can do now as opposed to historical events that they can no longer change, but I also believe that those in power can and should still acknowledge and address those in some ways as part of a two-state solution (e.g., by providing some form of compensation or a right of return/citizenship to people who experienced the expulsion and are still alive).

I also believe it would be a helpful part of the discourse around such a solution that Arab and Islamic states with a history of persecution of Jews acknowledge that and don't dismiss or minimize the history. I'm under no illusion that peace would happen overnight rather than through a difficult and long process, but I don't see any remotely humane or viable alternative to it in the long term.

 

[Lyndon]

Meanwhile Israeli government is looking for Arab countries to take Gaza refugees so they can ethnically cleanse Israel, these people are just sick

 

[Orbit]

No, it just reflects that people don't know what apartheid is. Did you know that Canadians can't vote in the US?

Have you really considered what Bibi said (and which got him roundly criticized within Israel by others in government)? It was also reported that "the prime minister said Arab citizens have equal rights under the law". So there goes your claim of apartheid.

But they don't have "equal rights under the law", and I have previously posted links to a law database that lays out 65 Israeli laws under which they are NOT equal; one of these is the "Law of Return", and there are many others. I also get the feeling that you are excluding Palestinians in occupied territories and Gaza from your calculations.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I'm not excusing anything, but we should always remember what caused Israel to react, plus the delicate position Israel was put in.

Parenthetically, I recall from some of your previous posts that you're a pacifist and a supporter of Gandhi. How does that factor into your views on Israel's approach to the war so far?

 

[rosends]

But they don't have "equal rights under the law", and I have previously posted links to a law database that lays out 65 Israeli laws under which they are NOT equal; one of these is the "Law of Return", and there are many others. I also get the feeling that you are excluding Palestinians in occupied territories and Gaza from your calculations.

Of course I am excluding those who aren't citizens. Why would they have the same rights as citizens? Citizens of all religions are equal under the law. However, as is in every country, everywhere, there are different rules that apply to different groups. Muslims are not subjected to mandatory military service but Jews are. Muslims can pray openly on the temple mount while Jews can't.

Does having a right of return make a country one mired in apartheid? If so, there's a lot of it going around

Right of return - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

How many Jews sit on the Supreme Court in Iran? Is there apartheid there?

Iranian Jews - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Orbit]

Of course I am excluding those who aren't citizens. Why would they have the same rights as citizens? Citizens of all religions are equal under the law. However, as is in every country, everywhere, there are different rules that apply to different groups. Muslims are not subjected to mandatory military service but Jews are. Muslims can pray openly on the temple mount while Jews can't.

Does having a right of return make a country one mired in apartheid? If so, there's a lot of it going around

Right of return - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

How many Jews sit on the Supreme Court in Iran? Is there apartheid there?

Iranian Jews - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Your response is willfully obtuse.

 

[rosends]

Your response is willfully obtuse.

and yours is glaringly short on facts