Is Israel commiting war crimes? Urban warfare expert weighs in

[Orbit]

I don't know whether you looked at the list of experts, but none of them are military experts in any field. All of them are human rights workers. It seems to me they are looking at the story from a completely different lens. Interestingly, none thought to point to specific articles of the Geneva Conventions they think were violated to institute "war crimes". Yelling something a thousand times does not make it any truer than if yelled a single time or not at all.

You're kidding, right? It doesn't take a "military expert" to see a war crime. Example: Collective punishment is pretty straightforward. See the definitions of war crimes below:

United Nations Office on Genocide Prevention and the Responsibility to Protect

Genocide Prevention and the Responsibility to Protect

www.un.org

 

[Revoltingest]

You're kidding, right? It doesn't take a "military expert" to see a war crime. Example: Collective punishment is pretty straightforward. See the definitions of war crimes below:

United Nations Office on Genocide Prevention and the Responsibility to Protect

Genocide Prevention and the Responsibility to Protect

www.un.org

When an "expert" contradicts commonly used
definitions, & ignores evidence, are they really
an expert on the topic....or just prolific advocates
for a personal agenda?

 

[sun rise]

Why do you believe that?

News reports.

 

[sun rise]

When an "expert" contradicts commonly used
definitions, & ignores evidence, are they really
an expert on the topic....or just prolific advocates
for a personal agenda?

<sarcasm>
Vaccine and masks - what do experts know anyway because they ignore my belief in certain "evidence". What do believers in the religion of evolution know because they contradict what I know - the Bible is literally true.
</sarcasm>

I hope you know the company you're keeping.

 

[Revoltingest]

News reports.

Hard to argue against all the evidence you just presented.

 

[Revoltingest]

I hope you know the company you're keeping.

You mean the angry curs on RF?
Oh, yes...they remind me regularly.

 

[InChrist]

Why do you believe that?
Israel's view of Muslims as lesser humans, ie, less
deserving of rights is supported by their commonly
expressed opinions that comport with action.
I don't see Palestinians who attack / kill their own
(eg, human shields, terrorism) expressing supremacist
views about themselves. Instead, it's about martyrdom,
ie, sacrifice innocents in pursuit of war & political goals.

Lest you think I excuse one view & not the other....
These are horrible beliefs, by both Jews & Muslims.

This is a common Israeli shibboleth, ie, Palestinians teach
their children to hate Jews. Have you considered that if
this is true, it could be because they've endured Israeli
oppression, human rights violations, & death their
entire lives?
This balanced by Israelis teaching their children that
Palestinians are violent anti-semites who can't be
reasoned with, & are inferior humans who don't
deserve the same rights as Jews.

Israel's apologists keep pointing to Palestinianians
economic failure, governmental failure,& moral failure
as a counter to Israel's oppression, human rights violations,
war crimes, & belief that Muslims are lesser people.
Why are things so bad with Palestinians....do you believe
it's all their fault, & thus they deserve their plight?

Israel has had policies of preventing keeping them on
the brink of financial collapse, allowing settlers to kill
them & steal their land, denying them human rights,
apartheid, now massive destruction of their homes,
& eviction of millions from Gaza & West Bank.

Israel is the bigger criminal organization, causing
vastly more death & destruction in retaliation for
a situation of Israel's own creation.

I believe… the Palestine government considers other Muslims as lesser humans…. because they demonstrate this by their actions.

Little kids, families or average people going about their lives likely would prefer not to be used as human shields or are not necessarily volunteers for martyrdom, yet are being used and killed nonetheless by leaders who consider them to be nothing more than pawns and property ( lesser humans) in their terrorist activities. Certainly, those Muslims in power living in luxury elsewhere telling average Palestinian Muslims to stay put and not leave war zones, even having those who attempt to flee killed, think they are superior to other Muslims. These Muslims don’t appear to mind exterminating those “lesser” Muslims at all.

I am appreciative to hear that you do think martyrdom, using people as human shields, or other such practices are wrong. I’m not condoning the wrongs of Israel, either…the stealing of land or violence of Israeli settlers. But I definitely think you have bought into an incredible amount of lies about Israel and your perspective is unbalanced to the point of being so biased you aren’t seeing the reality of the situation. You really are over the top in blaming Israel, I think. For an example…

Palestinians Steal Water From Palestinians, Then Blame Israel

"Yesterday there was an enforcement activity in the Idna area near Hebron during which four illegal water wells were sealed. The water wells, which were drilled in violation of the interim agreement [with the Palestinians], damage the natural water

www.gatestoneinstitute.org

I’ve read numerous accounts of Arabs living in Israel, Muslim and Jewish physicians who work together in hospitals and clinics, Arabs and Jewish IDF soldiers working and fighting together, independent women, LGBQ Arabs, etc. All of these Muslims are appreciative to live in Israel where they enjoy freedom and none want to live under the oppressive government and control in Gaza or the West Bank where many would likely be killed for living the life they want to live.

BTW, the article I linked previously was not written by an Israeli apologist, rather by an Arab Muslim.

 

[Revoltingest]

I believe… the Palestine government considers other Muslims as lesser humans…. because they demonstrate this by their actions.

Do they really have a government?
Gaza appears to be an open air prison run by Israel.
Also, it's Hamas that uses the human shields, not the civilian Palestinians.

But things are different in Israel, where the populace
elects leaders, joins the military, & cadges support
from USA to commit war crimes against Palestinians,
& impose apartheid on Israeli Muslims.

Little kids, families or average people going about their lives likely would prefer not to be used as human shields or are not necessarily volunteers for martyrdom, yet are being used and killed nonetheless by leaders who consider them to be nothing more than pawns and property ( lesser humans) in their terrorist activities. Certainly, those Muslims in power living in luxury elsewhere telling average Palestinian Muslims to stay put and not leave war zones, even having those who attempt to flee killed, think they are superior to other Muslims. These Muslims don’t appear to mind exterminating those “lesser” Muslims at all.

I am appreciative to hear that you do think martyrdom, using people as human shields, or other such practices are wrong. I’m not condoning the wrongs of Israel, either…the stealing of land or violence of Israeli settlers. But I definitely think you have bought into an incredible amount of lies about Israel and your perspective is unbalanced to the point of being so biased you aren’t seeing the reality of the situation. You really are over the top in blaming Israel, I think. For an example…

Palestinians Steal Water From Palestinians, Then Blame Israel

"Yesterday there was an enforcement activity in the Idna area near Hebron during which four illegal water wells were sealed. The water wells, which were drilled in violation of the interim agreement [with the Palestinians], damage the natural water

www.gatestoneinstitute.org

I’ve read numerous accounts of Arabs living in Israel, Muslim and Jewish physicians who work together in hospitals and clinics, Arabs and Jewish IDF soldiers working and fighting together, independent women, LGBQ Arabs, etc. All of these Muslims are appreciative to live in Israel where they enjoy freedom and none want to live under the oppressive government and control in Gaza or the West Bank where many would likely be killed for living the life they want to live.

BTW, the article I linked previously was not written by an Israeli apologist, rather by an Arab Muslim.

Arabs & Muslims in Israel are 2nd class citizens,
with de facto presumption of guilt in the courts.
Israel uses the excuse of Hamas taking human
shields to deliberately kill the human shields.
Look at the relative death toll...it's clear that
Israel doesn't value Muslim lives. And in surveys,
many Jews there openly say so.

 

[metis]

Who first attacked whom while generally knowing what the response would likely be?

 

[Lyndon]

Who first attacked whom while generally knowing what the response would likely be?

that would be Israel in 1948

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

BTW, the article I linked previously was not written by an Israeli apologist, rather by an Arab Muslim.

You quote an article from the Gatestone Institute written by Bassan Tawil.

One review of Gatestone notes:

Gatestone Institute is a think tank known for publishing anti-Muslim articles.[d][4][5][6][7][8] It was founded in 2012 by Nina Rosenwald, who serves as its president. [a] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gatestone_Institute#cite_note-pres_found-3 [9] [1] Former U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations and former[10] national security advisor, John R. Bolton, was its chairman from 2013 to March 2018. Its current chairman is Amir Taheri.[11][12][13][2] The organization has attracted attention for publishing false or inaccurate articles, some of which were shared widely.[11][14][15][16][17] [source]​

As for Bassan Tawil, I can find nothing about this man other than that he is “a Muslim Arab based in the Middle East” who writes for an anti-Muslim rag. Perhaps you can offer something of worth,

Parenthetically, your comment that "the article ... was not written by an Israeli apologist, rather by an Arab Muslim" suggests that you are somehow unaware of the fact that it is perfectly possible to be an Arab Muslim Israeli apologist.

 

[Revoltingest]

Who first attacked whom while generally knowing what the response would likely be?

Israel's attacks on Palestinians go way back to 1948.
Eviction, death, land grabs, terrorism, & oppression
of indigenous Muslims.
It's gotten worse over times. 2022 showed the highest
Israel induced Palestinian death toll in 2 decades.
Should this 2022 murder spree be called the initial
attack to which Hamas retaliated? Possibly.

I see that many Christians & Jews, both liberal &
conservative, think it's always just as simple as
Muslims are intransigent evil, & Jews are sainted
victims. But there's a nasty layer of complexity
under that artful but fragile PR edifice.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Who first attacked whom while generally knowing what the response would likely be?

that would be Israel in 1948

Trashing Israel by innuendo is hardly a new low. But, yes, 1948 was significant ...

The 1948 Arab–Israeli War, also known as the First Arab–Israeli War, followed the civil war in Mandatory Palestine as the second and final stage of the 1948 Palestine war. It formally began following the end of the British Mandate for Palestine at midnight on 14 May 1948; the Israeli Declaration of Independence had been issued earlier that day, and a military coalition of Arab states entered the territory of British Palestine in the morning of 15 May.​

​

The day after the 29 November 1947 adoption of the United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine – which planned to divide the territory into an Arab state, a Jewish state, and the Special International Regime encompassing the cities of Jerusalem and Bethlehem – a civil war began. There had been tension and conflict between Arabs, Jews, and the British since the 1917 Balfour Declaration and the 1920 creation of the British Mandate of Palestine. British policies dissatisfied both Arabs and Jews. Arab opposition developed into the 1936–1939 Arab revolt in Palestine, while the Jewish opposition developed into the 1944–1947 Jewish insurgency in Palestine.​

​

On 15 May 1948, the civil war transformed into a conflict between Israel and the Arab states following the Israeli Declaration of Independence the previous day. Egypt, Transjordan, Syria, and expeditionary forces from Iraq entered Palestine.[16][17][18][19] The invading forces took control of the Arab areas and immediately attacked Israeli forces and several Jewish settlements.[20][21][22] The 10 months of fighting took place mostly on the territory of the British Mandate and in the Sinai Peninsula and southern Lebanon, interrupted by several truce periods.[23] [source]​

Or perhaps we should go back to the 1929 Hebron Massacre? Or not.

Clearly what we should not do is paint a cartoonish, jew-hatred-tainted picture of the complicated and convulsive history of this conflict, particularly in the context of burgeoning antisemitism.

 

[Revoltingest]

Clearly what we should not do is paint a cartoonish, jew-hatred-tainted picture of the complicated and convulsive history of this conflict, particularly in the context of burgeoning antisemitism.

Burgeoning islamophobia abounds too.
Don't add to it.
And don't justify Israel's war crimes, &
vile history of oppressing Palestinians.

 

[InChrist]

You quote an article from the Gatestone Institute written by Bassan Tawil.

One review of Gatestone notes:

Gatestone Institute is a think tank known for publishing anti-Muslim articles.[d][4][5][6][7][8] It was founded in 2012 by Nina Rosenwald, who serves as its president. [a] Gatestone Institute - Wikipedia [9] [1] Former U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations and former[10] national security advisor, John R. Bolton, was its chairman from 2013 to March 2018. Its current chairman is Amir Taheri.[11][12][13][2] The organization has attracted attention for publishing false or inaccurate articles, some of which were shared widely.[11][14][15][16][17] [source]​

As for Bassan Tawil, I can find nothing about this man other than that he is “a Muslim Arab based in the Middle East” who writes for an anti-Muslim rag. Perhaps you can offer something of worth,

Parenthetically, your comment that "the article ... was not written by an Israeli apologist, rather by an Arab Muslim" suggests that you are somehow unaware of the fact that it is perfectly possible to be an Arab Muslim Israeli apologist.

Well, you seem to be correct. I really can’t find any further information on Bassan Tamil. It’s not that I think an Arab Muslim can’t be an Israeli apologist, it just seems unlikely.

I don’t necessarily consider Wikipedia to always be an accurate source of critique. Do you think the information in the article(s) is inaccurate?

 

[InChrist]

I see that many Christians & Jews, both liberal &
conservative, think it's always just as simple as
Muslims are intransigent evil, & Jews are sainted
victims. But there's a nasty layer of complexity
under that artful but fragile PR edifice.

I can’t speak for Jews, but doubt they think as you characterize them doing. Christians certainly don’t think…
“ Muslims are intransigent evil, & Jews are sainted victims”.
This doesn’t even make sense in light of the scriptures which are clear that all people (not only Muslims) are sinful and capable of evil and that anyone ( including Muslims) can through repentance be changed and reconciled to God and others.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

I don't know whether you looked at the list of experts, but none of them are military experts in any field. All of them are human rights workers. It seems to me they are looking at the story from a completely different lens. Interestingly, none thought to point to specific articles of the Geneva Conventions they think were violated to institute "war crimes". Yelling something a thousand times does not make it any truer than if yelled a single time or not at all.

It seems to me that "war crimes" falls within the purview of a human rights lens.

 

[Lyndon]

Have the delusion that Israel doesn't target civilians??

MSN

 

[Revoltingest]

I can’t speak for Jews, but doubt they think as you characterize them doing. Christians certainly don’t think…
“ Muslims are intransigent evil, & Jews are sainted victims”.
This doesn’t even make sense in light of the scriptures which are clear that all people (not only Muslims) are sinful and capable of evil and that anyone ( including Muslims) can through repentance be changed and reconciled to God and others.

Scriptures are flexible things. Poetic imagery in
ancient languages, often translated & re-translated,
can be read to justify whatever a society feels.
Add the human capacity for cognitive dissonance
& inflamed emotions...things will go very wrong.

Religions are what people do, not what they say
should be done. I observe how they choose to act.


l

 

[metis]

that would be Israel in 1948

It's nowhere near as simple as that. Either way, I'm not going relitigate the distant past.