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Is Israel commiting war crimes? Urban warfare expert weighs in

Sargonski

Well-Known Member
You are also what you know and if you don't know but speak anyway, that says volumes.

But it isn't part of Judaism (nor does Judaism have a concept of "infidel").

You are the one who seems to have little understanding of what you think friend. "The religion of the Chosen ones doesnt' have a concept of "infidel"

Absolutely no clue .. obviously. The whole rampage of the Israelites was one of Ethnic Cleansing .. following the commands of a xenophobic genocidal maniac .. with the most petty and nasty of human characteristics.

Who are you trying to kid ? Deut 32:43
"O nations, rejoice His people
For He’ll avenge the blood of His servants and wreak vengeance on His foes
And will cleanse His people’s land"


And there was plenty o cleansing back in the good old days .. now being brought forward into the present.
 

Orbit

I'm a planet
A really good interview here with a Jewish scholar of genocide here. Excerpt:

"Antisemitism is real, as you say, and has been growing, and is a not just lamentable, but frightening phenomenon. And obviously, I have no sympathy with it. But there is, and there has been for a long time, a tendency to label any criticism of the state of Israel, any criticism of the policies of any particular government, let alone criticism of Israel as a state as such, as antisemitism. And that is a policy of the right wing in Israel, and that’s a policy of the right wing in this country, and it has nothing to do with the truth. One can be a Zionist or a non-Zionist or an anti-Zionist, and not be antisemitic. One can be, again, Zionist, but against particular Israeli policies. I very strongly support the existence of the state of Israel, and I’m highly critical of its policies, and some people would call me a self-hating Jew. But that is nonsense. That has to do with criticism of policies that not only function as oppression of Palestinians over a very long period of time, 56 years of occupation of Palestinians, a refusal by the Israeli government to ever talk about what happened in 1948, so this kind of shutting up the entire conversation, and at the same time a belief that Jews, like other nations, have a right of self-determination. So we have to separate the two."

 

Orbit

I'm a planet
A very good open letter regarding the genocide of Palestinians, and an article on war crimes.


"The UN Genocide Convention lists five acts that fall under its definition. Israel is currently perpetrating three of these in Gaza: “1. Killing members of the group. 2. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group. 3. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part.”

 
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Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
To say what one believes is meaningless
when it violently conflicts with what one does.
Faiths are what adherents do...not what they say.
This is where we disagree most.
To me, and I repeat ‘to me’, it sounds more like you are trying to justify your lack of faith in God.

Your statements have flaws to wit:

The medical profession is about helping people… but that doesn’t mean that all doctors are about helping people
Our faith in Jesus is about the message of Jesus… but that doesn’t mean that all adherents follow Jesus’ message.

My belief is that all people have value and all people are created in God’s image. It is the message of Jesus - that He came to make us all children of God and it includes the Palestinians as well as Hamas. “Father forgive them for they know not what they” wasn’t for the perfect, if was for me and the world

The Christian faith is quantified as the one whose desire to help people of all nations is tangibly real. From the homeless to the prison; from addict to the sick; from the wealthy to the poor - any and all social strata and condition, Christians are there to help.
 
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Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
You are also what you know and if you don't know but speak anyway, that says volumes.
Many imagine they know much more than those
who disagree. But I've seen a paucity of this claimed
Instead, its seizure upon a few facts that serve one's
perspective.
I see things more broadly, ie, neither Jew nor Muslim
nor Christian is better, without sin, nor more entitled
to human rights. I see which sides deal in the greatest
amount of death, destruction, & oppression in Gaza &
Israel. I see Israel's 'justice' system that favors Jews
over Muslims.
But it isn't part of Judaism (nor does Judaism have a concept of "infidel").
What you say isn't part of Judaism is nonetheless
part of the culture & country that behave in that
dehumanizing manner towards Muslims.
There are Muslims because they ran and were elected in a democracy. If others don't run or don't win, whose fault is that. This is getting remarkably close to a claim that certain groups control elections or government. The government, though, did not censor people who advocate.
I've seen otherwise in news from Israel, eg, arresting
Muslims for bogus claims of supporting terrorism,
when it's naught but advocating for Palestinian rights,
& expressing their religion.
Have you not been watching the news?
I've been consuming much news, likely more
than you have, since I see so much broader
a picture than your posts reveal. I'm not the
one in denial of Israel's oppression & war
crimes.
Also, maybe those who know better know that Israel's actions aren't war crimes so your criticisms are leaving you feeling so unsatisfied because they are steeped in a lack of knowledge.
Israelis so often say that Israel is the Jewish state.
Christians here say that too. I see the apartheid
that mimics USA's old Jim Crow system, which
is one standard de juro, & another de facto
for the lesser humans.
It doesn't play anywhere near a role in the current conflict, at least not from Israel's side. Israel's government and army have members of a variety of religions. To ignore than is to bury one's head in the sand.
I'm fully aware of Muslims who serve in Israel's
military. So don't imagine that you alone have
access to info that's broadcast all over the world.
Fervent believers in religion typically cannot see
how religion controls their behavior in the secular
world. They confuse myth with reality.
To be without religion, & in a different country is
likely to provide a less prejudiced view.
This is just more ignorance about the rules of war.
Meh...war criminals tend to be blind to rules.
They always justify their crimes as necessary
& good.
But regardless, this is not a response to what I said. I wasn't asking about your criticizing anyone but in the damage that creating a fantasy of a monolithic religious mindset causes and which yoyu are contributing to.
Religions are what they do.
When adherents claim one thing, but do another,
this demands introspection, not fervent defense.
So you are criticizing all Muslims and the Muslim mindset for all the attacks on Israel, right?
Not every Muslim, nor ever Jew, nor every Christian.
But I criticize Jews & Christians as groups....those groups
who support Israel's brutal oppression & massacre of
Palestinians.
You keep trying to make this personal. It serves Israel
to paint me as an anti-semite. Go ahead & keep trying.
I'll continue to decry these war crimes based in Judeo-
Christian dehumanization of Muslims.
Nope, you just don't recognize it when it introduces itself to you.
You've only offered Israeli propaganda.
I recognize it from the news...it's all over .
So not only are you creating a "mindset" which doesn't exist, you are then applying it to anyone who supports the Jewish state. So noted. Thanks for your honesty and clear bias.

You just keep thinking that if it makes you feel secure defending evil.

Actually, I defend behaviors that aren't war crimes.
To defend proper behavior doesn't
excuse defending war crimes & oppression.
Because that is a Yiddish term for "non-Jewish woman." Judaism does not allow having sex with women outside of marriage. But his using a Yiddish term makes his behavior, for you, an extension of his religious identity. You are wrong.
To be a Jew is more than religion. Most of
the Jews I personally know are atheists.
However, most value their own above others.
His mother is just as wrong and not speaking from within the Jewish understanding. But if you want to take their actions as inextricably tied to the entirety of Judaism, you do that. Personally, i find that a disgusting approach, but there you have it.
The no-true-scotsman fallacy, eh.
I observe what people do.
It's more significant than claiming to believe otherwise.
 
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Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
This is brought about not only by the undying devotion of the Religious right to the Chosen ones -- as has historically been the case .. now we have the woke joke joining in the "Israel can do no wrong" hypocrisy party - demonizing free speech along the way .. as is the way of the cancel culture .. the truth now forbidden speech .. cancelled.

Saw a disturbing episode of Bill Maher the other day .. Jordan Peterson and some nobody Opinion columnest from the NYT were guests. I am big fans of both Maher and Peterson on most occasionsl. This night Maher dissappointed .. ended up claiming that the Israeli's try to protect civilians where Hamas does not .. a sad trope not gainsayed by either of the two guests.. Not that I blame them .. as it is extremely dangerous to one's career in any kind of journalism - media to not be 100% in support of the ethnic cleansing .. and thus in this respect .. the Israeli/US Propaganda is anything but tarnished.
I loathe Hamas's penchant for violence. But it
pales in comparison to Israel's. This is what
Israel & apologists need to distract from.
They must keep the focus on Hamas & Israeli
victims...they dare not acknowledge their own
greater brutality.
Tarnish comes from the Judeo-Christian majority
here having to openly censor those who defect
from blind support of Israel, & denial of its brutality.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
To me, and I repeat ‘to me’, it sounds more like you are trying to justify your lack of faith in God.
No need to justify disbelief in gnomes, sprites, ghosts,
Santa Claus, Baba Yaga, Satan, & sky fairies.
Your statements have flaws to wit:

The medical profession is about helping people… but that doesn’t mean that all doctors are about helping people
Our faith in Jesus is about the message of Jesus… but that doesn’t mean that all adherents follow Jesus’ message.
I observe that the practice of Christianity
usually has little to do with Jesus.
My belief is that all people have value and all people are created in God’s image. It is the message of Jesus - that He came to make us all children of God and it includes the Palestinians as well as Hamas. “Father forgive them for they know not what they” wasn’t for the perfect, if was for me and the world

The Christian faith is quantified as the one whose desire to help people of all nations is tangibly real. From the homeless to the prison; from addict to the sick; from the wealthy to the poor - any and all social strata and condition, Christians are there to help.
The very common denial of Israel's oppression of,
& war crimes against Palestinians by so many Jews
& Christians tells me what they really believe.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
"Intentionally directing attacks against buildings dedicated to religion, education, art, science or charitable purposes, historic monuments, hospitals and places where the sick and wounded are collected, provided they are not military objectives;"
It is also a war crime to locate military for offense in such areas, but this is exactly what Hamas does.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
It is also a war crime to locate military for offense in such areas, but this is exactly what Hamas does.
Agreeing upon that, is your reason for stating so
that it justifies Israel's bombing those areas when
they could go in with soldiers instead?

How many innocent Palestinian lives per Hamas life
is it OK for Israel to kill....10 to 1...100 to 1?
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
No need to justify disbelief in gnomes, sprites, ghosts,
Santa Claus, Baba Yaga, Satan, & sky fairies.

I observe that the practice of Christianity
usually has little to do with Jesus.

The very common denial of Israel's oppression of,
& war crimes against Palestinians by so many Jews
& Christians tells me what they really believe.
Ok… you have shown your cards to multiple people and, imv, you are using a stacked deck. ;)
 

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I don't see a tendency to call criticism of Israel anti-semitism, not generally. When all Jews get blamed for any perceived wrong by Israel that is when it usually gets called anti-semitism, since Israel is a country while Jews are an internet nation. It is easy to get them confused if we are not informed about what is what.
 

Orbit

I'm a planet
It is also a war crime to locate military for offense in such areas, but this is exactly what Hamas does.
Yes. As I have said before, ad nauseum, Hamas does war crimes. Israel does war crimes. One doesn't excuse the other, in any direction.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
You are the one who seems to have little understanding of what you think friend. "The religion of the Chosen ones doesnt' have a concept of "infidel"

Absolutely no clue .. obviously. The whole rampage of the Israelites was one of Ethnic Cleansing .. following the commands of a xenophobic genocidal maniac .. with the most petty and nasty of human characteristics.

Who are you trying to kid ? Deut 32:43
"O nations, rejoice His people
For He’ll avenge the blood of His servants and wreak vengeance on His foes
And will cleanse His people’s land"


And there was plenty o cleansing back in the good old days .. now being brought forward into the present.
I really don't think you should be trying to school me on what Judaism believes and what it teaches. You also might want to work on your reading comprehension (another area you shouldn't try to lecture me about). Judaism has no concept of "infidel." If you'd like, we can also discuss the actual impact of "ethnic cleansing" on the mideast so you can see who is actually guilty of it. Hint -- it isn't Israel.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I really don't think you should be trying to school me on what Judaism believes and what it teaches. You also might want to work on your reading comprehension (another area you shouldn't try to lecture me about). Judaism has no concept of "infidel." If you'd like, we can also discuss the actual impact of "ethnic cleansing" on the mideast so you can see who is actually guilty of it. Hint -- it isn't Israel.
And yet Jews have special words just to describe non-Jews,
ie, the rough equivalent of "infidel". To use different words
doesn't change the concept of treating them differently.
A quick internet search shows some problems....
 
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rosends

Well-Known Member
Many imagine they know much more than those
who disagree. But I've seen a paucity of this claimed
Instead, its seizure upon a few facts that serve one's
perspective.
Yes, that's exactly what I see you doing.
I see things more broadly, ie, neither Jew nor Muslim
nor Christian is better, without sin, nor more entitled
to human rights. I see which sides deal in the greatest
amount of death, destruction, & oppression in Gaza &
Israel. I see Israel's 'justice' system that favors Jews
over Muslims.
So you see with your particular blinders (and you criticize a "Judeo/Christian mindset" and impute beliefs onto entire religions).
What you say isn't part of Judaism is nonetheless
part of the culture & country that behave in that
dehumanizing manner towards Muslims.
Then you, it seems, haven't spent any time in Israel. I have and have interacted with people of a variety of religions. No one was dehumanized.
I've seen otherwise in news from Israel, eg, arresting
Muslims for bogus claims of supporting terrorism,
when it's naught but advocating for Palestinian rights,
& expressing their religion.
I can't see the article but are you also criticizing all the countries in Europe which have laws governing anti-Semitic gatherings and statements? Or the laws in the US that forbid all sorts of speech (I have a bit of a background in US first amendment law). And though I haven't read the article, I am pretty sure that no one gets arrested in Israel for expressing their religion unless a tenet of their religion is either proselytizing or advocating violence. Jews, though, can get in trouble if they try to pray on the temple mount out loud. Muslims can do it. Jews can't. Any protests there?
I've been consuming much news, likely more
than you have, since I see so much broader
a picture than your posts reveal. I'm not the
one in denial of Israel's oppression & war
crimes.
I have been consuming plenty of news from across the political and geographical spectrum since I am more of a student of journalism than your posts reveal. I'm the one willing to see the proofs and not dismiss them because I have decided that anything that supports Israel must be a lie or propaganda.
Israelis so often say that Israel is the Jewish state.
Christians here say that too. I see the apartheid
that mimics USA's old Jim Crow system, which
is one standard de juro, & another de facto
for the lesser humans.
Then you don't know what apartheid is, nor do you understand life in Israel. Muslims are represented in all facets of Israeli life and are governed by the same laws as Israelis (with a few exceptions like being able to pray openly on the temple mount and not being required to serve in the military). Imputing the "lesser humans" accusation smacks of ignorance.
I'm fully aware of Muslims who serve in Israel's
military.
They are volunteers -- not required to draft.
So don't imagine that you alone have
access to info that's broadcast all over the world.
Fervent believers in religion typically cannot see
how religion controls their behavior in the secular
world. They confuse myth with reality.
To be without religion, & in a different country is
likely to provide a less prejudiced view.
To be in another country and outside of a culture means not really understanding life within that culture or country. Cross cultural judgments are always rife with problems.
Meh...war criminals tend to be blind to rules.
They always justify their crimes as necessary
& good.
Well, the laws are there for all to see, as are the videos supporting the contention that Israel isn't breaking those laws. But people who hate are blind to reality.
Religions are what they do.
When adherents claim one thing, but do another,
this demands introspection, not fervent defense.
When people impute motives by tying actions to religion without any understanding of either the psychology of individuals or the rules of the religion, one falls into the path of nasty and sloppy stereotyping.
Not every Muslim, nor ever Jew, nor every Christian.
But I criticize Jews & Christians as groups....those groups
who support Israel's brutal oppression & massacre of
Palestinians.
So then why would religion matter at all? Why not criticize Israel's governmental policies (and cite them) and recognize that the Israeli government has people of a variety of religions in it. Using those same loaded terms (oppression and massacre) is an attempt to create a reality which isn't factual.
You keep trying to make this personal. It serves Israel
to paint me as an anti-semite. Go ahead & keep trying.
I'll continue to decry these war crimes based in Judeo-
Christian dehumanization of Muslims.
You make this personal by telling me who I am and what I believe. All I'm pointing out is that you feel comfortable making broad (and incorrect) generalizations against Jews. If you think that that is a defensible position to take then, great. I would suggest that making such sweeping statements about any group is a bad idea.
You've only offered Israeli propaganda.
I recognize it from the news...it's all over .
You are buying into Hamas propaganda and the bias of many outlets (that have been corrected and made aware and who often have to issue apologies). But since it correlates with what you want to believe, you swallow it. American intelligence confirms that the hospital was a Hamas stronghold but to you that's just more propaganda.
To defend proper behavior doesn't
excuse defending war crimes & oppression.
To label proper behavior as a war crime doesn't make it so.
To be a Jew is more than religion. Most of
the Jews I personally know are atheists.
However, most value their own above others.
So since you know Jews who are atheists that makes you an expert of anything related to Judaism? No. No it doesn't. I would suggest I know a bit more about Judaism and Jews than you do.
The no-true-scotsman fallacy, eh.
I observe what people do.
It's more significant than claiming to believe otherwise.
I made no reference to the fallacy. I pointed out that taking the behavior of one person and deciding that it is a group trait is a problem. I wrote "His mother is just as wrong and not speaking from within the Jewish understanding." I speak as more of an authority on Judaism than you so I'm allowed to say that her statement isn't in line with Jewish thought and teaching. Sorry you confuse that with a n-t-s fallacy.
 
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