Is Israel Racist?

[Nakosis]

All laws and social order is idealism, by that logic. 'Just how it works' includes an awful lot of abhorant behavior. Doesn't mean you shouldn't fight against it even though, ultimately, it will never be fully resolved. Otherwise you start getting platitudes like 'murder never ends, why bother fighting it?'

But, murder never ends. So what are you fighting? To put a end to murder? To put an end to the existence of the mighty? If you kill everyone, I'd suppose you could accomplish both. Ironic that you'd both have to be a killer and the mightest to accomplish this.

Some see homosexuality as abhorrent behavior. How people view the behavior of other people doesn't change reality. Reality doesn't care what we judge as moral or immoral.

You can of course attempt to change the mind of the mighty. Doesn't change the fact that you actually have to change the mind of the mighty who hold the power and ultimately decide what is right.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

But, murder never ends. So what are you fighting? To put a end to murder?

To reduce it as much as possible. It's not an all or nothing battle here.

Some see homosexuality as abhorrent behavior. How people view the behavior of other people doesn't change reality. Reality doesn't care what we judge as moral or immoral.

Arguments on nihilism and 'reality' notwithstanding, you don't need to have a cosmic morality to make determinations on what helps or hurts social structures, or argue it. Reality also doesn't care if complex social orders form within society to reduce needless suffering. And it's better than they do rather than wave around saying 'creating ethical arguments is pointless!' Which is about as useful as year one philosopher's solipsism.

You can of course attempt to change the mind of the mighty. Doesn't change the fact that you actually have to change the mind of the mighty who hold the power and ultimately decide what is right.

They aren't deciding what is right. That's a legalism argument. If might makes right than homosexuality really would be abhorrent so long as those in power deem it so. But that's not actually how morals or ethics work. Even in the most childish views of an anarchist society.

 

[Thief]

anyone who thinks he is better
just because he was born to a lineage of blood line is a racist

not to be confused with immediate blood line and character of family traits

my family are an excellent bunch of characters

 

[Stevicus]

Palestinian-American Rep. Rashida Tlaib (D-MI) also spoke at the briefing about her family’s separate-and-unequal treatment by Israel. Tlaib decried how her mother, a US citizen, is not allowed by Israel to visit the West Bank via Ben Gurion Airport near Tel Aviv because she also has Palestinian identification. Instead, her mother must transit to the West Bank via Jordan. Tlaib was blunt in her criticism of this Israeli policy, calling it “segregation”.

Tlaib also recounted her first visit to Palestine at age 12 to attend a family wedding in the West Bank. Growing up in Detroit with primarily Black teachers who instilled in her a knowledge of the “pain of oppression and segregation,” Tlaib was shocked by Israel’s separation of Palestinians at border control. Standing in a slow-moving line of Palestinians while others breezed through security, Tlaib realized that “this is what my teachers taught me about what happened to Blacks in America.”
Tlaib decries Israel’s ‘racist policies’ during Capitol Hill briefing examining abuses of US citizens

Not having been there, I don't (know). Though I have read stories of Palestinians being treated as second class citizens by Israel.

I've never been there either, so I'm not quite sure what to make of it. I don't see any need to get hung up on the word "racist," though some people like to bicker over definitions.

From what I've heard, the Palestinians are living in pretty dismal conditions. This situation has been covered in the news extensively, but no one seems to be able to come up with any real solution.

 

[Nakosis]

To reduce it as much as possible. It's not an all or nothing battle here.

How would you accomplish this, without enforcement?

Arguments on nihilism and 'reality' notwithstanding, you don't need to have a cosmic morality to make determinations on what helps or hurts social structures, or argue it. Reality also doesn't care if complex social orders form within society to reduce needless suffering. And it's better than they do rather than wave around saying 'creating ethical arguments is pointless!' Which is about as useful as year one philosopher's solipsism.

What would be pointless would be for a society to make such determinations but not enforce them. To make laws to reduce the number of murders where those who broke these laws was never held accountable.

They aren't deciding what is right.

Sure they are. They are deciding what behavior is right, what behavior is wrong and enforcing that view.

That's a legalism argument. If might makes right than homosexuality really would be abhorrent so long as those in power deem it so.

What is abhorrent is a personal judgement. What I was pointing out is what you or I see as abhorrent is irrelevant unless we where able to enforce those views. In a democratic society, what is right and wrong decided by the people or their representatives which is then enforce as right or wrong behavior.

But that's not actually how morals or ethics work.

Morals are based on feelings. You can attempt to change what people feel as moral so they will support the enforcement or what you feel is right or wrong. Ethics is what the "group" decides is right or wrong and chooses to enforce.

Even in the most childish views of an anarchist society.

Anarchy would be the opposite of might makes right. No enforcement of laws.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

How would you accomplish this, without enforcement?



What would be pointless would be for a society to make such determinations but not enforce them. To make laws to reduce the number of murders where those who broke these laws was never held accountable.



Sure they are. They are deciding what behavior is right, what behavior is wrong and enforcing that view.



What is abhorrent is a personal judgement. What I was pointing out is what you or I see as abhorrent is irrelevant unless we where able to enforce those views. In a democratic society, what is right and wrong decided by the people or their representatives which is then enforce as right or wrong behavior.



Morals are based on feelings. You can attempt to change what people feel as moral so they will support the enforcement or what you feel is right or wrong. Ethics is what the "group" decides is right or wrong and chooses to enforce.



Anarchy would be the opposite of might makes right. No enforcement of laws.

I don't really feel like repeating myself but you do understand that what is law does not equal what is right, correct?
Power doesn't make right. Majority preference doesn't make right. Laws don't make right. Tradition doesn't make right. None of these things tell us about the justification or fairness, equity or virtue of the behavior being enforced or suspended. You can have discussions about these principals without being arbitrary. Without sound reasoning you don't have right or wrong, just power, majority preference, laws or tradition regardless of when, if or how it's enforced.

 

[Notanumber]

Do Jews not deserve a safe space?

Where is a safe space for the Jews if it is not Israel?

Rise in numbers of Jews leaving for Israel from some European countries

 

[Srivijaya]

but no one seems to be able to come up with any real solution.

There used to be a proposed Two State Solution, but that's just about dead in the water now. More here:
The Quiet Death of the Two-State Solution
The truth is, that by agreeing to a two state solution, the Israelis would be legitimising Palestine and would lose all claim on the Arab territories they are quietly annexing. But by agreeing to a one state solution and absorbing all Palestinian land and people, they would immediately shift Israeli demographics in a direction they don't want to go. They want the land but not the people on it. The current policy of economic strangulation and isolation will deliver this long-term, as it will drive the Arabs out of 'unviable' spaces. Spaces which so-called 'settlers' will fill.

The populist Israeli right believe that to negotiate a settlement - to concede even an inch of land - is to set a dangerous precedent that would lead to the unraveling of Israel itself. It's slow-burn cowboys and Indians all over again.

 

[Nakosis]

I don't really feel like repeating myself but you do understand that what is law does not equal what is right, correct?
Power doesn't make right. Majority preference doesn't make right. Laws don't make right. Tradition doesn't make right. None of these things tell us about the justification or fairness, equity or virtue of the behavior being enforced or suspended. You can have discussions about these principals without being arbitrary. Without sound reasoning you don't have right or wrong, just power, majority preference, laws or tradition regardless of when, if or how it's enforced.

Ok, what does make right?

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Ok, what does make right?

Without going into a sixty page essay on the subject of things like consequentialism v utility v virtuism, I'll leave it at, I repeat, 'sound reasoning.'

 

[icehorse]

Palestinian-American Rep. Rashida Tlaib (D-MI) also spoke at the briefing about her family’s separate-and-unequal treatment by Israel. Tlaib decried how her mother, a US citizen, is not allowed by Israel to visit the West Bank via Ben Gurion Airport near Tel Aviv because she also has Palestinian identification. Instead, her mother must transit to the West Bank via Jordan. Tlaib was blunt in her criticism of this Israeli policy, calling it “segregation”.

Tlaib also recounted her first visit to Palestine at age 12 to attend a family wedding in the West Bank. Growing up in Detroit with primarily Black teachers who instilled in her a knowledge of the “pain of oppression and segregation,” Tlaib was shocked by Israel’s separation of Palestinians at border control. Standing in a slow-moving line of Palestinians while others breezed through security, Tlaib realized that “this is what my teachers taught me about what happened to Blacks in America.”
Tlaib decries Israel’s ‘racist policies’ during Capitol Hill briefing examining abuses of US citizens

Not having been there, I don't (know). Though I have read stories of Palestinians being treated as second class citizens by Israel.

Just as a bit of the context, you are aware I assume, that the Palestinian people voted Hamas to be their leaders, and Hamas declared war on Israel about 30 years ago.

 

[Nakosis]

Without going into a sixty page essay on the subject of things like consequentialism v utility v virtuism, I'll leave it at, I repeat, 'sound reasoning.'

All of which support "might makes right". Unless you wanted to go into details, I don't see a problem with my view here.

 

[Nakosis]

Just as a bit of the context, you are aware I assume, that the Palestinian people voted Hamas to be their leaders, and Hamas declared war on Israel about 30 years ago.

Sure try voicing dissent again Hamas within Palestine.

Both the Fatah-dominated Palestinian Authority (PA) in the West Bank and the Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas) in Gaza have in recent years carried out scores of arbitrary arrests for peaceful criticism of the authorities, particularly on social media, among independent journalists, on university campuses, and at demonstrations. As the Fatah-Hamas feud deepened despite attempts at reconciliation, PA security services have targeted supporters of Hamas and vice versa. Relying primarily on overly broad laws that criminalize activity such as causing “sectarian strife” or insulting “higher authorities,” the PA and Hamas use detention to punish critics and deter them and others from further activism. In detention, security forces routinely taunt, threaten, beat, and force detainees into painful stress positions for hours at a time.
Two Authorities, One Way, Zero Dissent | Arbitrary Arrest and Torture Under the Palestinian Authority and Hamas

If you don't vote the right way, you may not see the light of day in Palestine.

 

[icehorse]

If you don't vote the right way, you may not see the light of day in Palestine.

I think you're correct. What I don't understand is why so many people would blame Israel for Hamas?

 

[metis]

An entire country cannot be racist, but there are definitely some racists in Israel.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

All of which support "might makes right". Unless you wanted to go into details, I don't see a problem with my view here.

No it doesn't. Power, law, etc aren't self-justifying. You needn't any reason at for "might makes right." Only a lack of it.

 

[Nakosis]

No it doesn't. Power, law, etc aren't self-justifying. You needn't any reason at for "might makes right." Only a lack of it.

Didn't say anything about it being justified, or even explaining a reason for it. This is how I see the world as working. I'd been fine if the world was different, just haven't seen any reason yet to think otherwise.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Didn't say anything about it being justified, or even explaining a reason for it. This is how I see the world as working. I'd been fine if the world was different, just haven't seen any reason yet to think otherwise.

All you're seeing is might being imposed. Not might being right. They are not the same thing.

 

[Shad]

Palestinian-American Rep. Rashida Tlaib (D-MI) also spoke at the briefing about her family’s separate-and-unequal treatment by Israel. Tlaib decried how her mother, a US citizen, is not allowed by Israel to visit the West Bank via Ben Gurion Airport near Tel Aviv because she also has Palestinian identification. Instead, her mother must transit to the West Bank via Jordan. Tlaib was blunt in her criticism of this Israeli policy, calling it “segregation”.

There is no bar to travel into the airport. She would have been screened due to the security measures taken after terrorists attacks on the airport itself in the 70s.

Tlaib also recounted her first visit to Palestine at age 12 to attend a family wedding in the West Bank. Growing up in Detroit with primarily Black teachers who instilled in her a knowledge of the “pain of oppression and segregation,” Tlaib was shocked by Israel’s separation of Palestinians at border control. Standing in a slow-moving line of Palestinians while others breezed through security, Tlaib realized that “this is what my teachers taught me about what happened to Blacks in America.”
Tlaib decries Israel’s ‘racist policies’ during Capitol Hill briefing examining abuses of US citizens

Yes lets just ignore the history of the area while pretending people from Russia or whatever are bombing places right in the same vein as people in the WB and Gaza have.

Not having been there, I don't (know). Though I have read stories of Palestinians being treated as second class citizens by Israel.

Palestinians are not citizens to begin with. That is why they are called Palestinians not Israelis. Just like I am Canadian not American.

 

[Nakosis]

There is no bar to travel into the airport. She would have been screened due to the security measures taken after terrorists attacks on the airport itself in the 70s.

Shouldn't everyone then be screen the same? Profiling runs the risk of folks not meeting the profile of getting through.

Yes lets just ignore the history of the area while pretending people from Russia or whatever are bombing places right in the same vein as people in the WB and Gaza have.

So maybe blame the teachers for instilling this biased view?

Palestinians are not citizens to begin with. That is why they are called Palestinians not Israelis. Just like I am Canadian not American.

Even though you are a Canadian you can still become a US citizen. Don't Palestinians have a right to become Israeli citizens?