The Kilted Heathen
Crow FreyjasmaðR
Well, given your subtitle and (from this thread) apparent attitude, I have to wonder how many of those conversational degradations are mutual fault.
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Is it a waste of my time to try having honest, logical debates with theists?
- Thread starter JustWondering
- Start date
Phantasman
Well-Known Member
Some "Christians" get a sense of arrogance they are not aware of. Follow me here:
"He who has knowledge of the truth is a free man, but the free man does not sin, for "He who sins is the slave of sin" (Jn 8:34). Truth is the mother, knowledge the father. Those who think that sinning does not apply to them are called "free" by the world. Knowledge of the truth merely makes such people arrogant, which is what the words, "it makes them free" mean. It even gives them a sense of superiority over the whole world. But "Love builds up" (1 Co 8:1). In fact, he who is really free, through knowledge, is a slave, because of love for those who have not yet been able to attain to the freedom of knowledge. Knowledge makes them capable of becoming free. Love never calls something its own, [...] it [...] possess [...]. It never says,"This is yours" or "This is mine," but "All these are yours".- Gospel of Philip
In my religious studies, I don't have something that is not yours (as well). Many Christians think they have something you don't. It is this arrogance that withdraws them making it even more difficult to see. This is not an act of love. You can have the knowledge (truth) but without love, you are only borrowing the name, not living it.
The Jewish priests condemning Jesus for consorting with harlots and common men over them. See the arrogance?
The Bible does teach this, but it is better understood after it was recognized by those like Philip.
Luke:
For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
Love is patient and understanding. Not arrogant and evasive.
I exercise my same affection for those who don't believe as well as those who do. The reason I have better conversations with non believers, even atheists, is because they are honest with themselves over many of those who they know (spiritual) truth.
Hope you get my meaning. It's just my perception.
I'm curious with your 'evidence' request. I can only show you the universe around us. You however can only show me the same evidence and your assumption is that God doesn't exist, and yet there are scientists stating that the structure of the universe tends toward a creator, but they are very adamant to state they aren't saying God is that creator.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
I think this is the point of the OP. The universe doesn't out-right show god. You'd have to go deeper into it, really. L'st you're doing this on purpose??
That is all the points. It's not what evidence I can show that matters. It's what conclusion of the evidence around us you choose that matters. We all have free-will and can make our conclusions only based on our observations.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
I had a conversation (well, I was talking to myself) once. When I joined the Catholic Church, I told her a lot of good things I experienced, which she conversed about. Then I told her all the bad things I noticed. With everything, all has their strong and weak points. I find it odd that religion has to be an exception to this rule; no personal growth if one can't be challenged to the uncomfortable parts in one's faith (if one can see it).
Anyway, she told me "I don't want to hear that, it will influenced my beliefs."
She did this with the news, movies, and even defriended me over how many years because my other friend says I left the Church so I must have insulted her some how. My other friend says, "She was NEVER your friend." Reminds me of what @Vinayaka was talking about in another debate we had a month or so back. When some christians befriend you, they slowly try to win you over to their beliefs (don't mix yoke or something or other) and, [even without them knowing it], they gradually bring you to their faith. Not in those exact words. Sneaky converter, I guess you can say.
An RFer was talking when I asked him a sensitive question. Like many I speak with, he was kind of unnerved when I asked X so I changed my wording to say it Yly. A lot of times they get defensive because they don't want their beliefs challenged. I can say a handful of RFers alone like that...
and I had that in person by co-worker whom I thought would be my friend. She put me in a category: Lesbian/Non-Christian/Atheist/Co-worker friend category and judged my who I am by the eyes of her faith.
When someone breaks that judgement, they backlash. So, a lot of its that.
Other reasons is just being ignorant of how they express their beliefs and how it affects people. The first friend I mentioned earlier, when I said after being in The Church awhile, "I can't just believe something is true overnight."
She says: "give it time."
It is frustrating, I know. I mention these because it cuts the discussion completely when you're defensive, can't talk about anything else but your faith, and put you in a box. They'd literally have to be interested in what you say. Also, the "being atheist" or non-believer closes them off to any fruitful conversation. Bias of what an atheist is before that particular atheist defines the word for himself (if that be the case, for me it was not), stops the conversation too.
In my summary of The Buddha's words: it's their karma not mine.
Whatever actions such as speech creates downfall for someone else instead of generosity and all that, is a reflection of the karma they need to work on. Everyone needs to work on something about themselves. It's sad when it affects others. I go to a behavior therapist now because of a bunch of, stuff, I need to learn how to control; its affecting my work. If one doesn't know their own faults, how can they change how they react to see how it affects others.
dianaiad
Well-Known Member
You mean...you can't get them to change their minds and see things your way?
Well, that's too bad, m'friend. It happens, and I imagine that they are thinking very much the same about you.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
I honestly believe theist can show answers to their beliefs. What I find odd (on both sides) is that you guys are arguing over evidence or saying there is no evidence without observation over a being that exists in spirit and in one's own heart. You literally cannot prove that. You can make connections between your belief and the universe; but, if I had a child and he was never around religion, and he looked up at the universe, he would not see god.
It comes from the believer. Now, if the believer was willing to share his testimony and how he came to god(s), then, yeah, that would be evidence you can prove.
The issue isn't the evidence on the theist side, it's how they communicate with atheists without sounding egotistic, asking debating questions, and already have presumptions of what they believe before and without asking atheist directly what they believe.
Depends on the subject, and if there's respect on both sides.
In your case I suspect so.
Drizzt Do'Urden
Deistic Drow Elf
"It is easier to fool people than it is to convince them that they have been fooled"
Mark Twain.
Truer words were never said. It is easier to fool people into religious belief than it is to convince them that they've been fooled into belief in something that isn't true.
You're trying to convince someone who has allowed themselves to be bamboozled into religious belief that they've been bamboozled. It probably won't happen, you convincing them...
My two cents...
Have the conversation, but keep in mind you aren't trying to reach the mind of the theist you're actually talking to. People read forums who don't comment, people looking to watch the spectacle whose minds are actually open and willing to listen...
Just have your conversations and do what you can to point out the faults in their arguments with cogent responses and know that you will reach the mind of someone who will probably never thank you.
These conversations are seeds being planted. Some of them will grow and bear fruit, most won't.
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allfoak
Alchemist
I don't know how a theist would ever have a debate with an atheist,they are polar opposites in the way they think.
The line is thin between logic and intuition but most don't even know there is a line.
My experience hasn’t been the same as yours. I have encountered logical arguments from theists and atheists in similarities proportions. One thing I have noticed is that many of the disagreements have less to do with logic issues and are more often axiomatic or assumptions. Most of the current religions are logical enough if one assumes the premises the religion requires.
There is also at least one good reason for debates for those of a different world view, clarity and understanding. While persuasion is one purpose for debate it isn’t the only one. So by debating you can gain understanding how others think even if you don’t agree with them. You can also gain clarity of what you also think by needing to explore it through introspection and being able to communicate it to others coherently.
There is also at least one good reason for debates for those of a different world view, clarity and understanding. While persuasion is one purpose for debate it isn’t the only one. So by debating you can gain understanding how others think even if you don’t agree with them. You can also gain clarity of what you also think by needing to explore it through introspection and being able to communicate it to others coherently.
Axe Elf
Prophet
It's not the sign of an atheist or a theist; it's the sign of an irrational person.
As a believer, I limit my beliefs to what I can rationally derive from the axioms of my faith.
For those who DO understand the rules of logic and debate, @Shaul pretty much nailed it:
But for those who don't, yeah, you're pretty much just wasting your time trying to use logic and reason if they aren't willing to play by the same rules.
It is indeed usually a waste.
Instead of debating, I recommend conversing.
Believers can be quite entertaining (as can heathens) when no one is trying to win.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Probably, but I don't suppose it's going to stop you.
TheBannerofHomuraAkemi
Active Member
You think with how egotistical a lot of deities are they would give us more evidence, but maybe it's not worth their time. Oh well, why has thou forsaken us? Oh God.
What was it you believed formerly? And please don't say "Christianity" because what passes for Christianity today is nothing close to what Jesus taught......so tell me what you got reasoned out of.....specifically.
It certainly seems so, doesn't it? (Still, much in life is fun.)
The answer is found in what Genesis 3:1-6 tells us.
Briefly, the issue of God's right to rule, i.e., His sovereignty, was raised. And because of Adam and Eve's choice, i.e., their decision to choose independence and go against God, they gave that issue legitimacy. So, God has stayed out of human affairs, removing His protection (somewhat) and allowing humans to rule themselves.
You might enjoy this:
Why Does God Allow Suffering? — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
(Especially look at the subheading, "A Vital Issue Is Raised")
Another article:
What Is God Doing? — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
Thanks and take care.