Is it a waste of my time to try having honest, logical debates with theists?

[asharmony]

Why is it so hard for many theists to provide/follow logical arguments? You would think, that given the amount of time their religions have been around they would have some well reasoned arguments ready to go. Yet when I try to have an honest and rational debate/discussion with a theist about religion it usually ends with them name calling, constantly ignoring/trying to change the subject, or walking away from the debate/discussion. So is it a waste of my time trying to debate theists?

I'm yet to find an avenue of discussion or argument where logic is in any way applicable to theistic thought. It seems to be totally adverse to the concept of logic. It sucks. If you're looking for some kind of common ground with a theist on the basis of empirical, scientific evidence, you won't find it. Only junk science, misguided attempts to establish facts and empty rhetoric.

 

[asharmony]

I think this is the point of the OP. The universe doesn't out-right show god. You'd have to go deeper into it, really. L'st you're doing this on purpose??

"Deeper" than evidence?

Can you please assist me or clarify?

Sounds like empty rhetoric to me.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Funny thing, I feel the same way about atheists... I have many logical arguments and no atheists seem to be able to respond to them... they just keep calling me names...
Whatcha wanna talk about, how God should prove He exists?

And levels of proof?

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

If you want to start a thread on what it means 'scripturally' to be a Christian and how we fit the criteria.....I'm in.
But its

here.

You're the one who brought it up, deej.

 

[Libski]

Logic and reason are the way that seems right to a man, in a fallen world.

Where’s the logic in nothing creating everything?

We are asked to rely on faith rather than our senses because if we relied on our senses, our perspective would depend on our mood - not on the truth.

Where’s the logic in subjective morality? Logic would discover that if it’s subjective, it doesn’t exist. Why even name it then? Where’s the logic in that?

No-one can be debated into believing; we only find God when we choose to seek Him or when we see the work of God.

 

[Jumi]

Why is it so hard for many theists to provide/follow logical arguments? You would think, that given the amount of time their religions have been around they would have some well reasoned arguments ready to go. Yet when I try to have an honest and rational debate/discussion with a theist about religion it usually ends with them name calling, constantly ignoring/trying to change the subject, or walking away from the debate/discussion. So is it a waste of my time trying to debate theists?

Depends on what you're trying to achieve. A change in your own views, or someone else's?

 

[Mock Turtle]

Logic and reason are the way that seems right to a man, in a fallen world.

Where’s the logic in nothing creating everything?

I'm sure many of us are asking this. Perhaps not knowing is preferable to believing fairy tales though?

We are asked to rely on faith rather than our senses because if we relied on our senses, our perspective would depend on our mood - not on the truth.

Really? My beliefs or lack of them are stable enough thanks!

Where’s the logic in subjective morality? Logic would discover that if it’s subjective, it doesn’t exist. Why even name it then? Where’s the logic in that?

That is some twisted logic. Because what we experience is purely subjective it therefore doesn't exist? What on earth do you do for encores? Morality is most likely an evolved trait, with or without religions (have a look into the animal world to see moral behaviour), and we may not have arrived at a true consensus but religions are hardly helping - many conflicts - such that we never arrive at an objective basis for morality (I doubt it), but so what. We should be satisfied with what works for us rather than suppositions as to some 'given' morality - and coming from the various (conflicting) messengers.

No-one can be debated into believing; we only find God when we choose to seek Him or when we see the work of God.

No. You only believe in God because it makes sense to you - not to many others. They presumably can't be bothered in seeking such things - because we all know where that leads - the multitude of conflicting religious beliefs - that cause more problems than they ever solve.

Fallen world? It started when all the religions developed.

 

[Libski]

I'm sure many of us are asking this. Perhaps not knowing is preferable to believing fairy tales though?



Really? My beliefs or lack of them are stable enough thanks!



That is some twisted logic. Because what we experience is purely subjective it therefore doesn't exist? What on earth do you do for encores? Morality is most likely an evolved trait, with or without religions (have a look into the animal world to see moral behaviour), and we may not have arrived at a true consensus but religions are hardly helping - many conflicts - such that we never arrive at an objective basis for morality (I doubt it), but so what. We should be satisfied with what works for us rather than suppositions as to some 'given' morality - and coming from the various (conflicting) messengers.



No. You only believe in God because it makes sense to you - not to many others. They presumably can't be bothered in seeking such things - because we all know where that leads - the multitude of conflicting religious beliefs - that cause more problems than they ever solve.

Fallen world? It started when all the religions developed.

Religions have one thing in common - they are all man made and they are all deception. God wants a personal relationship with you, not a religion.

Morality? What is a conscience? Why would we have one?

What about equality? Do you believe in equality? If so, why? We all have different abilities. On what basis should we be treated equal?

Do you believe that you have value? If so, do all animals have the same value? Do you eat meat?

If you don’t believe that you have a spirit, and that you are an animal, do you have peace?

If you don’t worship God, who/what do you worship? Money, status, sports, people, yourself, attention, food, sex, clothes, science?

All I know is that I had an eating disorder, I got baptised and now I’m free. I have complete peace. God is real.

 

[Apologes]

Is it that hard for people not to paint an entire group in the same color?

Anyway, refusing to be reasoned with is nothing unique to theism.

Attitude change really requires the person to question their initial positions before they become open to change at a later time. The adversarial nature of debate reduces the likelihood of this happening as it makes people defensive/aggressive.

If you want to maximise your small chance of achieving this you need to be nice, find commonalities, give people the option of agreeing with you (not demanding), and taking an indirect approach by focusing on getting them to think about an issue rather than wanting them to agree with you.

Still doesn't work very often either.

Basically this. I think just talking about the merits of a given position in a charitable way in a more open dialogue format will accomplish a lot more than going in with the "I'm gonna win and embarrass you" mentality.

 

[PureX]

Why is it so hard for many theists to provide/follow logical arguments? You would think, that given the amount of time their religions have been around they would have some well reasoned arguments ready to go. Yet when I try to have an honest and rational debate/discussion with a theist about religion it usually ends with them name calling, constantly ignoring/trying to change the subject, or walking away from the debate/discussion. So is it a waste of my time trying to debate theists?

I think you probably confuse a "logical argument" with "what I deem to be a logical argument", which is why anyone that thinks differently from you, i.e., uses a different course of reasoning, seems so "illogical" to you. The more you realize that your own reasoning is subjective, and not absolute, the more able you will become to understand and appreciate the reasoning of others.

Good luck.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Religions have one thing in common - they are all man made and they are all deception. God wants a personal relationship with you, not a religion.

I'm glad we agree on something.

Morality? What is a conscience? Why would we have one?

Have you looked into animal behaviour? If you will acknowledge that we share a common history from evolution then you will probably recognise that many other animals are just as social as we humans, and apparently exhibit varying degrees of morality - what they will tolerate in other members of the group and what they will not. The shared qualities even extend to fair-play apparently, where one animal will forgo a treat for example if a fellow is not given such. How would one explain this kind of thing if morality didn't have a long history? Morality is just something that appears to have evolved from communal living - alone.

What about equality? Do you believe in equality? If so, why? We all have different abilities. On what basis should we be treated equal?

That's a tricky one, but equality of opportunities might be the nearest we can get to this, since, as I'm sure you and all the rest of us are aware, we are all born with different abilities and circumstances. Marx tried to answer this but I'm sure not that many will like his theories now. I think we can only strive for a fairer and more equal society, and capitalism hardly helps in my view.

Do you believe that you have value? If so, do all animals have the same value? Do you eat meat?

Value? Not much more than anyone else. I value all life but I am a sinner, so I do eat meat. I was a veggie for a few years such that it wouldn't bother me too much to return to this.

If you don’t believe that you have a spirit, and that you are an animal, do you have peace?

As much an animal as the next - but a lot more fortunate. And yes, I am as at peace as I ever could be - and the past was not so - hence I am rather chuffed to be in this position actually. My beliefs concerning any God or religions hasn't changed since I was a child. No reason for any change.

If you don’t worship God, who/what do you worship? Money, status, sports, people, yourself, attention, food, sex, clothes, science?

All I know is that I had an eating disorder, I got baptised and now I’m free. I have complete peace. God is real.

Good for you. I don't worship anything. Perhaps understanding is what I see as top of my list of things to admire - and hopefully I still am humble enough to know that I still have a lot to learn - but not about religions or any gods - I leave the latter as a question mark.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

"Deeper" than evidence?

Can you please assist me or clarify?

Sounds like empty rhetoric to me.

Just providing evidence and believing what you are given is like asking a cook to give you food he can finally give you but you never talk about and take interest in how the cook defines his food just you want him to give it so you can eat it.

It ignores the fact that evidence in religion doesnt exist apart from the believer and culture to which that "evidence" comes from. If you dont go deeper and understand cultural and even take interest, you'll fall for any "supernatural" evidence they give you and if it aligns with Your definition of god, youd be satisfied. Its ignoring the complexity of god in relation to religion and taking for granted what you expect isnt always true.

You have to go deeper than evidence.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Atheists don't find it logical or reasonable to believe in God based on personal experience and personal inspiration or revelation from heaven.

We don't? I would.

If you can give an argument that starts with "I experienced 'X'" and, through a logical chain of arguments, justifiably leads to "therefore God exists," then I would accept that personal experience 'X' would demonstrate God


Now... I can't climb in your head and confirm that you did experience 'X,' but I've never even seen someone make a good case for how their purported experience would demonstrate God even if we took it as given.

... but this failure on the part of theists doesn't mean that we wouldn't accept arguments based on personal experience; we just won't accept bad arguments based on personal experience.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Libski, I honestly cant make sense of your reply as an objective true. The truth is what you believe is true. It is not alway fact.

Logic and reason are the way that seems right to a man, in a fallen world.

Logic (like math) is true/fact regardless your interpretation of a man in a fallen world. Thats your opinion.

Where’s the logic in nothing creating everything?

Since life forms, explodes, creates from Already existing things, why logically assume there is a beginning to a circle?

Anyone can believe anything, but facts dont depend on belief. I should be able to find objective ways to believe that life has been created not my personal belief. For example, one and one will Always equal two (always double) regardless of what we believe. Creators arent that simple. You have to tell us how the design has some attribute that exists, that we can see to understand, and draw conclusions on that to know what is true ans what is belief.

We are asked to rely on faith rather than our senses because if we relied on our senses, our perspective would depend on our mood - not on the truth.

Thats your belief. We rely on senses because that is animal instinct. If faith can keep you safe from danger, everyone would try to believe. Psychologist book of symptoms will reflect faith as the source of how we view the world.

How yoi interpret senses is your belief. How do you know a creator exists if your five senses were not involved to discover this truth just your mind (which defines your heart)?

Where’s the logic in subjective morality? Logic would discover that if it’s subjective, it doesn’t exist. Why even name it then? Where’s the logic in that?

We all have subject reality. We all believe things from our interpretations rather than universal facts that can be experienced by all.

How does subjective reality doent exist?

Religion is based on feelings (born again) and opinions (there is a god). Where are the facts?

Not statements, anyone can say their opinions.

No-one can be debated into believing; we only find God when we choose to seek Him or when we see the work of God.

The point of debate in this context is not to find god ourselves. Its to ask the logic behind belief in a creator (and hopefuly, believers take interest in why there isnt).

Not many debate to believe; so, your statement doesnt apply to those who wish to discuss the existence of god without saying we are trying to find god in the process.

Thats like my discussing with you about the facts of teaching and you assume the discussion means I want to be a teacher.

Its an assumption. Not everyone fits that mold; so, you have to ask them first.

 

[Libski]

Libski, I honestly cant make sense of your reply as an objective true. The truth is what you believe is true. It is not alway fact.


Logic (like math) is true/fact regardless your interpretation of a man in a fallen world. Thats your opinion.



Since life forms, explodes, creates from Already existing things, why logically assume there is a beginning to a circle?

Anyone can believe anything, but facts dont depend on belief. I should be able to find objective ways to believe that life has been created not my personal belief. For example, one and one will Always equal two (always double) regardless of what we believe. Creators arent that simple. You have to tell us how the design has some attribute that exists, that we can see to understand, and draw conclusions on that to know what is true ans what is belief.


Thats your belief. We rely on senses because that is animal instinct. If faith can keep you safe from danger, everyone would try to believe. Psychologist book of symptoms will reflect faith as the source of how we view the world.

How yoi interpret senses is your belief. How do you know a creator exists if your five senses were not involved to discover this truth just your mind (which defines your heart)?



We all have subject reality. We all believe things from our interpretations rather than universal facts that can be experienced by all.

How does subjective reality doent exist?

Religion is based on feelings (born again) and opinions (there is a god). Where are the facts?

Not statements, anyone can say their opinions.



The point of debate in this context is not to find god ourselves. Its to ask the logic behind belief in a creator (and hopefuly, believers take interest in why there isnt).

Not many debate to believe; so, your statement doesnt apply to those who wish to discuss the existence of god without saying we are trying to find god in the process.

Thats like my discussing with you about the facts of teaching and you assume the discussion means I want to be a teacher.

Its an assumption. Not everyone fits that mold; so, you have to ask them first.

Logic won’t explain God nor find God.

A man’s heart leads him to God, not his head. The logic of the world - such as break up with a spouse who isn’t meeting your needs - is almost the polar opposite to the Word of God. Chalk and cheese.

How was everything created from nothing? I don’t know the answer that atheists have (if they believe that it was created from nothing) and I didn’t even know the answer when I was an atheist

I just believed that someone somewhere knew.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Just dont assume those who want to discuss it are trying to find god themselves

Logic won’t explain God nor find God.

Thats why its a puzzle why you put belief over fact. Usually, one has faith in a person because that person Actually shows their worth for the one to put his or her trust. Faith also works as hope for something that has Not Yet happened. These things arent tangible.

In both cases, you use experience (god helped me), sense (I feel a blessing), and physical evidence (the design of the universe) to trust who you call god. This trust is Yours. Its subjective and personal interpretation to help yourself understand life.

For example:

A man’s heart leads him to God, not his head. The logic of the world - such as break up with a spouse who isn’t meeting your needs - is almost the polar opposite to the Word of God. Chalk and cheese.

The mind/the head is the source of the heart. Name a heart-emotion that the mind cannot experience.

How was everything created from nothing? I don’t know the answer that atheists have (if they believe that it was created from nothing) and I didn’t even know the answer when I was an atheist

Atheist most likely dont know either. The difference is they admit it and keep going.

Life is a circular not linear. How can you say its a fact that circles have beginnings?

You can believe it, yes, nothing wrong with belief. Is it fact, no.

Even if life came from nothing, its a fact that believers need to accept or not.

just believed that someone somewhere knew.

Hmm?

 

[Libski]

Just dont assume those who want to discuss it are trying to find god themselves


Thats why its a puzzle why you put belief over fact. Usually, one has faith in a person because that person Actually shows their worth for the one to put his or her trust. Faith also works as hope for something that has Not Yet happened. These things arent tangible.

In both cases, you use experience (god helped me), sense (I feel a blessing), and physical evidence (the design of the universe) to trust who you call god. This trust is Yours. Its subjective and personal interpretation to help yourself understand life.

For example:



The mind/the head is the source of the heart. Name a heart-emotion that the mind cannot experience.



Atheist most likely dont know either. The difference is they admit it and keep going.

Life is a circular not linear. How can you say its a fact that circles have beginnings?

You can believe it, yes, nothing wrong with belief. Is it fact, no.

Even if life came from nothing, its a fact that believers need to accept or not.



Hmm?

When I said ‘heart’ I was referring to emotions as opposed to logic. Logically a person can find a way to ease their unrest but emotionally they may call out to God for help.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

When I said ‘heart’ I was referring to emotions as opposed to logic. Logically a person can find a way to ease their unrest but emotionally they may call out to God for help.

Watching the theists around me, it seems like theism often leads to more emotional unrest than atheism.

I remember when my Dad died: I wad able to simply be angry at the cancer that killed him. Yes, I felt grief and powerlessness, but it seemed to me that many of the theists around me felt the same anger, grief and powerlessness that I did, but layered on top of that was guilt (at denying their faith by finding fault with God's plan) and even more powerlessness (since to them, the cancer was the unthwartable will of an all-powerful god, not just a difficult disease that we can work to overcome).

 

[Trailblazer]

And levels of proof?

There is no proof, only evidence:

Evidence: the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid:
Proof: evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement:

 

[Unveiled Artist]

When I said ‘heart’ I was referring to emotions as opposed to logic. Logically a person can find a way to ease their unrest but emotionally they may call out to God for help.

Our emotions come from our mind. We react to external and internal stimuli and how that stimuli affects us is what emotion(s) we express. The mind as in logic translate those emotions to be whether you label it coming from god or from thoughts or.... our interpretations and attributions of our emotions to say god or psychology, at its core isnt spiritual.

What makes it spiritual is how we relate our emotions (our senses) and thoughts to the beliefs we already have. So, if one already believes in god, his feelings is confirmed by his bias would be attributed to god. Likewise, when I practiced Nichiren Buddhism, the same explanation of feelings christians give, Nichiren Buddhist feel the same from their object of worship. They too have faith.

Since we are not aliens to each other, your emotions about god is the same as the emotions someone else has with, say, Vishnu. No one is special in those regards but to call that experience god(s) as a universal term for all is stretching it.

The OP is wondering if you (believers) can hold a conversation about the existence of your gods, moreso than point out he exists and why. We want to know how. We know why (to save you), we know who (creator), we no what (description in scripture),

But the How is more complex than saying "just have faith" or "you cant know god by logic but by the heart." Although honest statements, theys are cop outs (excuses) to dismiss discussing the complexity of god.

I mean, I value expression; so, if a person like a christian cant express the person of their devotion, it leads me (and probably others) to believe its only your beliefs. Sometimes we cannot express the core of our beliefs/heart/emotions/mind but if it is a fact, it goes beyond subjectivity. Either he exists or he does not regardless.

But how would we know that if you stick to belief, faith, and heart without going deeper to the facts?

Edit.