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is it free will or consequential will?
- Thread starter waitasec
- Start date
For those who are lazy like me:
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
That being said, I don't see what that has to do with free will?
Skwim
Veteran Member
Thank you.
That's how I read it, too. If you believe in Jesus, you got the everlasting life thing going for you. I don't see free will at issue.
Arav
Jain
Its free will because you choose whether or not you believe in Christ?
I dont thing many of us are understanding whats being said here.
A choice is not "willful" if it's not free.
It is a statement of consequence. It isn't a statement of choice. Belief isn't something that happens by choice.
Skwim
Veteran Member
Well, there's no free will involved in any choice. Choice is nothing but a mental action necessitated by past events. Whatever is "chosen" is determined; the culmination of a succession of cause-effect events.
waitasec
Veteran Member
we make choices with out knowing what the outcome will be...
we do that all the time, that is free will of choice.
being told what the consequences will be is another thing altogether.
that is consequential will of choice.
what i am getting at is, when the condition of "whoever believes" is made in the presence of fear; the alternative is to perish if one does not believe, freedom of will cannot exist. only the knowledge of the consequence can exist in fear.
it's as if someone where to point a gun to my head and told me if i follow their instructions they'll let me live...and i chose to live, was that choice made with my freedom of will? i say no.
what is the difference between that and john 3:16?
why call that free will?
waitasec
Veteran Member
interesting
however, it is not a free choice if it is not willful; the consequence feeds fear, therefore the "will" is manipulated by fear of the consequence
CarlinKnew
Well-Known Member
It's not.
Nothing.
Yes. If determinism is true we are predictable, not free. If indeterminism is true our actions are random, and our will is not in control. There are no other logical possibilities. Free will is impossible.
I understand your point but regardless of consequences, free will cannot exist.
Having everlasting life feeds fear? If you say so.
waitasec
Veteran Member
our free will is; a must, a current, a force. it is life.
when the believer says we have the freedom of will to choose, in the context of john 3:16, that in and of itself is a false notion because jesus produced determinism based on 2 conditions; belief and disbelief.
the motive is based on fear of the known and the unavoidable; death
the believers belief is contrived
how can there be freedom of will when the motive is to produce conditions based on fear?
when the believer says we have the freedom of will to choose, in the context of john 3:16, that in and of itself is a false notion because jesus produced determinism based on 2 conditions; belief and disbelief.
the motive is based on fear of the known and the unavoidable; death
the believers belief is contrived
how can there be freedom of will when the motive is to produce conditions based on fear?
The statement (John 3:16) isn't about the consequence of not believing (for which there can be no consequence), just the consequence of believing.
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waitasec
Veteran Member
jesus produced determinism based on 2 conditions; belief and disbelief.
"whoever believes" is also applied to 'whoever doesn't believe' in relation to the consequence
the motive is based on fear of the known and the unavoidable; death
the believers belief is contrived
how can there be freedom of will when the motive is to produce conditions based on fear?
There is never not freedom of will --you said it yourself: "our free will is; a must, a current, a force. it is life." That's correct, it's a correct idea. If you understand that there is never not freedom of will, then providing conditions --any conditions --cannot remove, distract from, invalidate, violate, bend, warp or shape freedom of will.
I honestly don't know why you let it do that (i.e. these questions). It's inalienable.
I disagree. A statement was made about the consequence of a condition, the condition of belief. It implies nothing about the condition of not believing, and those "believers" who do imply that it does are mistaken (they are also employing a fallacy, denying the antecedent).
There can never not be freedom of will.
Jeremiah
Well-Known Member
I agree, it is not a really freedom. It is coercion; an attempt to undermined one's freewill by greed and fear.
People are just not taking it seriously here, because they don't actually in believe these words. And while, one can say philosophically, it is freewill, as the choice is always present; but practically, in terms of liberty, equality and freedom, it is nothing but coercion.
If I had the power of life over death, and I told everyone to worship me as a god or die. Behind my back people would plot against me, to overthrow my tyrannical rule and regain their freedom.
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Jeremiah
Well-Known Member
What I don't get is: Considering we are all God's children, how can Jesus be God's only begotten son?