is it free will or consequential will?

[waitasec]

I disagree. A statement was made about the consequence of a condition, the condition of belief. It implies nothing about the condition of not believing.

whoever believes will not perish, meaning whoever doesn't believe will. which is already unavoidable, however jesus' manipulative motive was to imply by seemingly offer a way to avoid death based on the fear of the unavoidable.

There can never not be freedom of will.

i agree. not in john 3:16
because faith is contrived.

and those "believers" who do imply that it does are mistaken (they are also employing a fallacy, denying the antecedent).

we can talk about what proceeded this statement, which will only confirm my argument...

 

[Willamena]

whoever believes will not perish, meaning whoever doesn't believe will.

If that's what they will.

however jesus' manipulative motive was to imply by seemingly offer a way to avoid death based on the fear of the unavoidable.

That's one way of looking at it.

 

[waitasec]

If that's what they will.
.

not freely because of fear

 

[Willamena]

not freely because of fear

Somehow, I suspect you mean "against their will."

 

[waitasec]

Somehow, I suspect you mean "against their will."

death is a unavoidable
implying a way to avoid this by setting a condition for a consequence is not free will because fear is the motivating factor, isn't it?

you are right
john 3:16 goes against free will, it is consequential will

 

[Skwim]

we make choices with out knowing what the outcome will be...
we do that all the time, that is free will of choice.

But isn't that true of everything we do? We can never know for certain the outcome.

 

[Willamena]

death is a unavoidable
implying a way to avoid this by setting a condition for a consequence is not free will because fear is the motivating factor, isn't it?

you are right
john 3:16 goes against free will, it is consequential will

You have everlasting life right here and now. The death that is unavoidable doesn't change that.

 

[PolyHedral]

You have everlasting life right here and now. The death that is unavoidable doesn't change that.

[explanation needed]

 

[Copernicus]

Can someone give an example of free will that is not "consequential"?

 

[AxisMundi]

Its free will because you choose whether or not you believe in Christ?

I dont thing many of us are understanding whats being said here.

Is it "free will" to choose whether or not to hop into the brush shredder and be turned, painfully, into red mist and chunks of flesh?

The Christians go on constantly about free will, used as an excuse for the world's ills, and also as an attempt to claim they all "came to Christ of their own free will".

Worship Christ or face eternal damnation.

Not exactly a case of "free will" now is it?

 

[Willamena]

[explanation needed]

When's eternity?

 

[Jeremiah]

Well, there's no free will involved in any choice. Choice is nothing but a mental action necessitated by past events. Whatever is "chosen" is determined; the culmination of a succession of cause-effect events.

It's not.

Nothing.

Yes. If determinism is true we are predictable, not free. If indeterminism is true our actions are random, and our will is not in control. There are no other logical possibilities. Free will is impossible.

I understand your point but regardless of consequences, free will cannot exist.

Determinism is not only an unfalsifiable claim but, also, the idea that everything is the results of cause and effect, logically creates an infinite regression.

 

[CarlinKnew]

Determinism is not only an unfalsifiable claim but, also, the idea that everything is the results of cause and effect, logically creates an infinite regression.

I didn't make that claim, I said "if". Either events are random or they are caused. There are no other logical possibilities. Neither allows for free will to exist.

 

[Jeremiah]

I didn't make that claim, I said "if". Either events are random or they are caused. There are no other logical possibilities. Neither allows for free will to exist.

We don't know how much of it is random, if it is random, if it is cause and effect, how much is cause and effect, or if it a combination of both. Or if it is something completely else, that at this point is unfathomable to us.

At this point, we don't really know if freewill is possible or not; we don't understand enough about the physics, or the human mind, to make that determination.

 

[CarlinKnew]

We don't know how much of it is random, if it is random, if it is cause and effect, how much is cause and effect, or if it a combination of both. Or if it is something completely else, that at this point is unfathomable to us.

At this point, we don't really know if freewill is possible or not; we don't understand enough about the physics, or the human mind, to make that determination.

No combination of randomness and cause-and-effect could make free will possible. It's a nonsensical concept. If you want to have faith in some "unfathomable" mysticism that's your choice, but we do have a very good understanding of how nervous systems work.

 

[Jeremiah]

No combination of randomness and cause-and-effect could make free will possible. It's a nonsensical concept. If you want to have faith in some "unfathomable" mysticism that's your choice, but we do have a very good understanding of how nervous systems work.

" If you want to have faith in some "unfathomable" mysticism that's your choice,"

I am not the one here making unfalsifiable claims.

We can not truly say that the perceived randomness or determinism, is for-sure random or an infinite series of cause and effect. We simply do not know; nor do we know how the human mind works; which has little to do with understanding the "hardware" but more so with the "software".

Perhaps it is possible that a "cause" can self start itself, becoming its own cause and effect.

 

[Skwim]

Determinism is not only an unfalsifiable claim but, also, the idea that everything is the results of cause and effect, logically creates an infinite regression.

Even if it did it still wouldn't change the fact that all effects on the super-atomic scale have a cause. Unless, of course, you know of some that don't and are willing to share with us. So, whatcha got?

 

[Jeremiah]

Even if it did it still wouldn't change the fact that all effects on the super-atomic scale have a cause. Unless, of course, you know of some that don't and are willing to share with us. So, whatcha got?

"Unless, of course, you know of some that don't and are willing to share with us. So, whatcha got?"

I'll just cut and paste what I just said a few post up....

We don't know how much of it is random, if it is random, if it is cause and effect, how much is cause and effect, or if it a combination of both. Or if it is something completely else, that at this point is unfathomable to us.

At this point, we don't really know if freewill is possible or not; we don't understand enough about the physics, or the human mind, to make that determination.

 

[waitasec]

Is it "free will" to choose whether or not to hop into the brush shredder and be turned, painfully, into red mist and chunks of flesh?

The Christians go on constantly about free will, used as an excuse for the world's ills, and also as an attempt to claim they all "came to Christ of their own free will".

Worship Christ or face eternal damnation.

Not exactly a case of "free will" now is it?

thank you

 

[waitasec]

Can someone give an example of free will that is not "consequential"?

i would say, in the context of john 3:16, anything that is not motivated by fear...