Is it moral for God to punish us?

[RRex]

I leave it up to each individual to decide if he/she believes in a higher power, et al.

As far as moral judgments over me by that higher power, I don't sweat what I can't control.

 

[Greatest I am]

I leave it up to each individual to decide if he/she believes in a higher power, et al.

As far as moral judgments over me by that higher power, I don't sweat what I can't control.

Neither do I but I do not see a genocidal son murdering God as a higher moral power.

I see such a God as a prick. I am not as politically correct as some.

“The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”
―Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

Regards
DL

 

[RRex]

I agree.

PS - Thanks for reminding me to put Dawkins on my Kindle reading list.

 

[paarsurrey]

Morality is about motive (it is said God judges our hearts). Whether you jumped or were pushed, the "punishment" is still the same. What matters is how you ended up in that situation. Were you depressed? Were you fleeing a burning building? Did someone push you off? Etc, etc ...

G-d is Merciful and Master of the Day of Judgement:

[1:1]In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.
[1:2]All praise belongs to Allah, Lord of all the worlds,
[1:3]The Gracious, the Merciful,
[1:4]Master of the Day of Judgment.
[1:5]Thee alone do we worship and Thee alone do we implore for help.
[1:6]Guide us in the right path —
[1:7]The path of those on whom Thou hast bestowedThyblessings, those who have not incurredThydispleasure, and those who have not gone astray.
http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?ch=1
​

It is His being Merciful that he will compensate everybody for all the adverse factors that befall one, with justice everybody will be looked after.
Regards

 

[Fool]

Yes. Reality is more important than a fantasy. What egalitarian has to do with holistic is beyond me.

egalitarian means equitable, or equal, and holistic is that which regards the whole.

in other words shouldn't the whole, as ONE, be equal as respects it's parts. or should some have more respect than others?

http://etymonline.com/index.php?term=egalitarian&allowed_in_frame=0

http://etymonline.com/index.php?term=holism&allowed_in_frame=0

Perhaps it is because I am French. Either way, it does not prove that the moral issue we were discussing is objective as compared to subjective.

Regards
DL

actually yes it can. the whole cannot be objective. there is nothing to compare itself against, or nothing to compare it too.

objectively means that there are contrasts/compliments that can be compared against each other.

 

[Greatest I am]

G-d is Merciful and Master of the Day of Judgement:

[1:1]In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.
[1:2]All praise belongs to Allah, Lord of all the worlds,
[1:3]The Gracious, the Merciful,
[1:4]Master of the Day of Judgment.
[1:5]Thee alone do we worship and Thee alone do we implore for help.
[1:6]Guide us in the right path —
[1:7]The path of those on whom Thou hast bestowedThyblessings, those who have not incurredThydispleasure, and those who have not gone astray.
http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?ch=1
​

It is His being Merciful that he will compensate everybody for all the adverse factors that befall one, with justice everybody will be looked after.
Regards

Are you saying that Allah will finally give Muslim women equality in heaven to compensate for the immorality of Muslim men?

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

egalitarian means equitable, or equal, and holistic is that which regards the whole.

in other words shouldn't the whole, as ONE, be equal as respects it's parts. or should some have more respect than others?

http://etymonline.com/index.php?term=egalitarian&allowed_in_frame=0

http://etymonline.com/index.php?term=holism&allowed_in_frame=0

actually yes it can. the whole cannot be objective. there is nothing to compare itself against, or nothing to compare it too.

objectively means that there are contrasts/compliments that can be compared against each other.

All deserve the same respect in heaven where a God, if he existed, would know all the conditions that made the soul what it is. Not on earth where we cannot know that and must protect ourselves. from evil.

I would need an example of what you are calling an objective moral tenet before I can deal with your deeper thoughts.

Please give one and show your "contrasts/compliments" comparison to others.

Regards
DL

 

[Fool]

All deserve the same respect in heaven where a God, if he existed, would know all the conditions that made the soul what it is. Not on earth where we cannot know that and must protect ourselves. from evil.

I would need an example of what you are calling an objective moral tenet before I can deal with your deeper thoughts.

Please give one and show your "contrasts/compliments" comparison to others.

Regards
DL

you and i have the ability to contrast and compliment each other because we appear separate, or have an illusion of separateness. thus we try to see from a third perspective of objectivity. what is good for the two as one.

the whole has nothing to compare itself to because there would be no illusion of separateness. it would have to pretend, or imagine, itself as divided and separate. thus it can only be subjective.

so what is objective for us may be subjective for the Absolute. thus in form we may appear objective but in action it would be subjective to the Absolute



thank you

 

[Greatest I am]

you and i have the ability to contrast and compliment each other because we appear separate, or have an illusion of separateness. thus we try to see from a third perspective of objectivity. what is good for the two as one.

the whole has nothing to compare itself to because there would be no illusion of separateness. it would have to pretend, or imagine, itself as divided and separate. thus it can only be subjective.

so what is objective for us may be subjective for the Absolute. thus in form we may appear objective but in action it would be subjective to the Absolute



thank you

Again, without a real world example, I cannot agree.

Regards
DL

 

[Fool]

Again, without a real world example, I cannot agree.

Regards
DL

sure,

real from the perspective of the whole earth's inhabitants being subjective to the viewpoint of all being equal and in harmony,

vs

subjective from the viewpoint that all are not equal and chaos ensues.

 

[Greatest I am]

sure,

real from the perspective of the whole earth's inhabitants being subjective to the viewpoint of all being equal and in harmony,

vs

subjective from the viewpoint that all are not equal and chaos ensues.

Seems we are done. Thanks,

Regards
DL

 

[Fool]

Seems we are done. Thanks,

Regards
DL

same idea as a control and a test group in a study.


if there is no control group to compare the test group against there is no possible juxtaposition to compare/contrast against.


being objective simply looks at the results of a course of action and doesn't make a moral/ethical judgement per se.

being subjective is based off an individuated idea and based more so on what is acceptable/unacceptable to the self.

 

[Greatest I am]

Seems we are done. Thanks,

Regards
DL

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Are you saying that Allah will finally give Muslim women equality in heaven to compensate for the immorality of Muslim men?

Regards
DL

Well, God will comfort all those who suffer, even if it's His followers who made the suffering. (Why He doesn't seem all that interested in stopping it is beyond me, though as life progresses and morality is becoming more equal and rational and less hypocritical, to the dismay of many conservatives, apparently He DOES change things for the better, but He does it the slow way.)

 

[Greatest I am]

Well, God will comfort all those who suffer, even if it's His followers who made the suffering. (Why He doesn't seem all that interested in stopping it is beyond me, though as life progresses and morality is becoming more equal and rational and less hypocritical, to the dismay of many conservatives, apparently He DOES change things for the better, but He does it the slow way.)

I see secular people doing the changing of attitudes.

Give credit where credit is due please.

All the mainstream religions are homophobic and misogynous and have only progressed thanks to their ignoring their immoral creeds.

Islam especially need to become civilized.

Regards
DL

 

[Milton Platt]

You really need to talk to God about this, I think God would totally disagree with your mischarachterization of God.

If this god created all things and knows all things in advance, how can he not be responsible for the outcomes?

If I saw a child being sexually abused, I would do everything in my power to stop it. God simply watches the abuse and then punishes the perpetrator later. Which is more moral?