Is it ok to mock beliefs?

[HerDotness]

All this brouhaha over something Dawkins said was his "first impulse," signifying that while he'd like to jump right at the person tearing their beliefs to shreds, he of course wouldn't.

Misreading and spinning the misread to the ridiculous from that point abounds.

"Just shut up, get back in your corner and be quiet, atheists."--that's the real point.

 

[jarofthoughts]

Sorry if this was directed at me, which would mean that I am really slow at replying.
Will do so now.

I think the real question should be this though - how does one effectively mock beliefs without alienating the people who hold those beliefs?

That depends on how a person views those ideas he/she cherishes.
Personally, I do not consider the ideas I support to be 'me', but it appears that some people consider some ideas so integral to themselves that any criticism/mockery/discussion about said ideas become, for them, about themselves instead. That is a problem.

Does this even matter?

To a certain degree, yes.
One should be perfectly capable of criticising/mocking/discussing an idea without resorting to ad homin attacks, however, if a person is so attached to an idea that they make it about them instead of about the idea, then that is a sacrifice I am more than willing to make. Also, it should be noted, that holding certain beliefs/supporting certain ideas does say something about that person. There is no getting around that. Someone who, for instance, supports crystal healing clearly has little regard for empirical evidence and is also likely to be severely ignorant when it comes to science and, say, Creationists are, in my view, either ignorant or dishonest, considering the massive amounts of evidence in favour of Evolution.

And if it doesn't, then what's the real goal of mockery?

To limit the influence of certain ideas in society and individuals without directly censoring them, and to expose the shortcomings of said ideas. While not my preferred method (I am a teacher after all), it is a method that can be effective if used correctly.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Is not mocking a form of bullying? Critisizing is not mocking however. There is a difference.

 

[fantome profane]

Is not mocking a form of bullying? Critisizing is not mocking however. There is a difference.

If mocking can be seen as a form of bullying then criticizing can also be seen as a form of bullying.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I don't lie. At first I talked about the man on that other thread, but later on and on this thread I never mentioned him until earlier today. Maybe you are mistaking someone else's opinions for mine.

"I don't lie.".....what the....Whoa, there horsie!

What we have here is a breakdown of communication. I think you're taking my comments personally, and I mean nothing of the sort.

My apologies. Time to move on, Heather.

 

[ChristineES]

"I don't lie.".....what the....Whoa, there horsie!

What we have here is a breakdown of communication. I think you're taking my comments personally, and I mean nothing of the sort.

My apologies. Time to move on, Heather.

My apologies, too. There was something else at home going on at the same time and kind of got into my post. Next time, I will get off the computer and come back later to reply. :sorry1:

 

[MysticSang'ha]

My apologies, too. There was something else at home going on at the same time and kind of got into my post. Next time, I will get off the computer and come back later to reply. :sorry1:

Nooooo!!!! Don't come back to reply!!!! We'll get sucked into arguing about semantics again and I just wanna play dress up with you!

Stop, Christine! STOP!!! :hug:

 

[ChristineES]

Nooooo!!!! Don't come back to reply!!!! We'll get sucked into arguing about semantics again and I just wanna play dress up with you!

Stop, Christine! STOP!!! :hug:

I am so done with this talk of The Reason Rally. I mean it, I will never, ever even enter this and the other thread again.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Is not mocking a form of bullying? Critisizing is not mocking however. There is a difference.

There's an overlap: some mockery can be bullying; some mockery isn't.

I would say that satire is a form of mockery. Do you consider all satire to be bullying?

 

[jarofthoughts]

Is not mocking a form of bullying? Critisizing is not mocking however. There is a difference.

Not necessarily, but it can be.

However, it should be noted that some things about the world are simply just true, and we have overwhelming evidence to show that this is so.
The Earth is not flat, a biscuit and a mouthful of fermented grape juice does not turn into actual flesh and blood because a priest speaks some words over it, homoeopathy isn't medicine and evolution really happened.

People who believe otherwise are just plainly and simply wrong, and whether it is because of indoctrination, ignorance or whatever their 'rationale' might be, is actually not that relevant.
Limiting the influence of obviously mind-numbingly false ideas is, in my view, worth a few bruised egos.
We're not talking about censorship here, and no-one is impeding on anyone's freedom of speech.
We're talking, at its worst, about making fun of ridiculous ideas and the people who promote them.

I'm not saying that this is the path I would choose, but sometimes there is no debate to be had, and in some cases the people promoting certain ideas are either dishonest or wilfully ignorant, in which case I see no reason to grant neither them, nor their ideas, much respect.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Not necessarily, but it can be.

However, it should be noted that some things about the world are simply just true, and we have overwhelming evidence to show that this is so.
The Earth is not flat, a biscuit and a mouthful of fermented grape juice does not turn into actual flesh and blood because a priest speaks some words over it, homoeopathy isn't medicine and evolution really happened.

People who believe otherwise are just plainly and simply wrong, and whether it is because of indoctrination, ignorance or whatever their 'rationale' might be, is actually not that relevant.
Limiting the influence of obviously mind-numbingly false ideas is, in my view, worth a few bruised egos.
We're not talking about censorship here, and no-one is impeding on anyone's freedom of speech.
We're talking, at its worst, about making fun of ridiculous ideas and the people who promote them.

I'm not saying that this is the path I would choose, but sometimes there is no debate to be had, and in some cases the people promoting certain ideas are either dishonest or wilfully ignorant, in which case I see no reason to grant neither them, nor their ideas, much respect.

Yes! Excellent!

 

[Road Warrior]

If mocking can be seen as a form of bullying then criticizing can also be seen as a form of bullying.

Agreed, but it depends on how it is used. Mocking and ridiculing are intended to harm, but criticizing can be meant to help or insult. An example would be the treatment of the character Claireece "Precious" Jones in the movie "Precious" by her mother Mary. Sample <--NSFW

 

[fantome profane]

Mocking and ridiculing are intended to harm,

I do not agree that that is true.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Agreed, but it depends on how it is used. Mocking and ridiculing are intended to harm, but criticizing can be meant to help or insult. An example would be the treatment of the character Claireece "Precious" Jones in the movie "Precious" by her mother Mary. Sample <--NSFW

Do you think that the intent of satire is to harm?

 

[A Troubled Man]

Agreed, but it depends on how it is used. Mocking and ridiculing are intended to harm

If they harm an irrational belief, that is a good thing.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Agreed, but it depends on how it is used. Mocking and ridiculing are intended to harm, but criticizing can be meant to help or insult. An example would be the treatment of the character Claireece "Precious" Jones in the movie "Precious" by her mother Mary. Sample <--NSFW

That's not mockery in the story of "Precious." That's verbal vomit.

Do you dislike many forms of comedy? Much of it us satirical and mockery.

 

[Orias]

The thing about harm is...what is harmful to some is actually beneficial to others.

 

[Road Warrior]

That's not mockery in the story of "Precious." That's verbal vomit.

Do you dislike many forms of comedy? Much of it us satirical and mockery.

Yes, people can be cruel. I like comedy, but am not a fan of Schadenfreude. Clearly some people are. I've often wondered why. Is it because they are malevolent or simply such sorry, pitiful souls that they need to see someone more miserable than themselves in order to feel better about themselves.

I think people who liked watching "Jerry Springer" were of the latter sort. It's an area of psychology of which I'd like to study more.

 

[Road Warrior]

The thing about harm is...what is harmful to some is actually beneficial to others.

Like genocide? True. Eradicating a race of people off a land so others can take it is "beneficial" to those who committing the genocide.

 

[fantome profane]

Like genocide? True. Eradicating a race of people off a land so others can take it is "beneficial" to those who committing the genocide.

What in the name of Yoda are you talking about?