Is it possible for us to create a purpose?

[RedDragon94]

(which we ourselves did not create).

The higher purpose is in and of itself intrinsically human.

 

[Gambit]

The higher purpose is in and of itself intrinsically human.

The bottom line is that you did not create it.

 

[RedDragon94]

The bottom line is that you did not create it.

Okay, yes. I believe we do agree

 

[Gambit]

Actually as atheism is closely related to materialism, it cannot ultimately have any place for creation of purpose for self, since the existence, life, will, intelligence etc. are all determined through material interactions.

Agreed. In fact, I raised this issue (at least, indirectly) in my thread entitled "The Teleonomic Worldview of Atheism vs. The Teleological Worldview of Theism."

 

[Gambit]

For a Buddhist, nothing is self-evident because the Buddhist believes there is no self. And since the Buddhist believes there is no self, then the he or she cannot rationally justify a belief that we create our own purpose because there is no "we."

Pretty little semantics. Cute, but no more than cute.

Well, unless some Buddhist "atheist" can actually refute the argument, then it is more than just cute.

 

[Parsimony]

Has "purpose" even been defined yet?

What is the good being sought when someone does something self-destructive in order to hurt another individual out of spite (such as, say, a child destroying their own toy because their mother told them that they had to share it with their sibling)?

 

[Gambit]

What is the good being sought when someone does something self-destructive in order to hurt another individual out of spite (such as, say, a child destroying their own toy because their mother told them that they had to share it with their sibling)?

Everyone is seeking the good as they see it. And everyone is receiving feedback (positive or negative) to let them know how they're doing.

"Good is to be done and pursued, and evil is to be avoided." - St. Thomas Aquinas

 

[outhouse]

The bottom line is that you did not create it.

Bottom line is it factually has human origins.

 

[Willamena]

If self, will, intellect etc. are products of some process then the control is vested in that process and not in the so called created selves.

I have not heard it stated better.

 

[Willamena]

The problem is in the addition you made in parens in the OP: "which we ourselves did not create"

Even "good" is subjective. Meaning subject to the interpretation of the one experiencing or witnessing it. Which means that we all create our own version of "good" coming into this world. What is "good" for me (a good job, a loving wife and kids) is not necessarily the "good" for someone else (who doesn't want to be married or tied down, who doesn't want children, who is fine with any job as long as their needs are met and they like the work). So, you see, we still "create" good in the first place - each of us, and then we create purposes for ourselves to achieve that "good".

I could possibly accept that explanation, were it not for the fact that in order to say "this is good" or "that is good," I compare "this" and "that" to something. What is it I compare them to in order to judge them good?

 

[thevoiceofgod]

Many atheists are inclined to argue that the only purpose we have is that which we create for ourselves. But creating a purpose qualifies as a purpose in and of itself. IOW, whatever is driving the atheist to create a purpose is itself a purpose which the atheist him- or herself did not create.

Question: Is it possible for us to create a purpose without acting on some higher purpose (which we ourselves did not create)?

"The good is what all desire." - St. Thomas Aquinas

It's impossible for us created people to create anything. Our Creator created everything we experience including the bodies that we perceive as something real.

 

[atanu]

I have not heard it stated better.

Thanks.

 

[ArtieE]

I could possibly accept that explanation, were it not for the fact that in order to say "this is good" or "that is good," I compare "this" and "that" to something. What is it I compare them to in order to judge them good?

You don't "judge" what is good, what is good is what is beneficial for as many as possible and/or detrimental to as few as possible. You just do your best to find out what that is.

 

[Parsimony]

Everyone is seeking the good as they see it. And everyone is receiving feedback (positive or negative) to let them know how they're doing.

"Good is to be done and pursued, and evil is to be avoided." - St. Thomas Aquinas

That didn't answer my question. What good is being sought in the particular scenario I mentioned? If everyone seeks the good, then the question must have an answer.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

It's impossible for us created people to create anything.

I've created songs, poems, stories, drawings, characters, pots, computer programs, various computer wires and gadgets, and even some nifty Macgyver type of doodads.

 

[thevoiceofgod]

I've created songs, poems, stories, drawings, characters, pots, computer programs, various computer wires and gadgets, and even some nifty Macgyver type of doodads.

They were already created by our Creator. He put the information into your mind for you to write, draw, build and whatever else He planned for your body to do.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

They were already created by our Creator.

They weren't already created because they didn't come into existence until I put forth my own effort to bring my visions to fruition.

He put the information into your mind for you to write, draw, build and whatever else He planned for your body to do.

That's somewhat unsettling, because if god is working that way, then he is using me, according to his own plan, to occasionally create some blasphemous bits of art, and his plan obviously must include me turning away from him and winding up in Hell.
So, either your god is really sadistic and is using me in such a way that I get a 1-way VIP ticket straight to hell, or, I created those things of my own volition.

 

[thevoiceofgod]

They weren't already created because they didn't come into existence until I put forth my own effort to bring my visions to fruition.

That's somewhat unsettling, because if god is working that way, then he is using me, according to his own plan, to occasionally create some blasphemous bits of art, and his plan obviously must include me turning away from him and winding up in Hell.
So, either your god is really sadistic and is using me in such a way that I get a 1-way VIP ticket straight to hell, or, I created those things of my own volition.

Don't worry. All flesh was planned by our Creator to die in this first age. Our created existence as information will, when processed through each created being, will give you an eternity of life experiences with a perfect partner. We will never be used to build anything with our human hands in Paradise because our Creator will have built all the illusions beforehand in His simulation program. All we have to do is enjoy the illusions as we observe and experience them with our created senses.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

We will never be used to build anything with our human hands

How dreadfully boring. I build things. I've built sets for plays, I've done carpentry for many years, and I grew up with Legos and K'Nex. I enjoy throwing pots, I love creating fantasy worlds, and the process of building, of creating, is something that fulfills me.

All we have to do is enjoy the illusions as we observe and experience them with our created senses.

Why would I want to be a part of an eternal illusion? I can enjoy the illusion of a book, a video game, or a movie for awhile, but illusions are fantasies, fantasies are not real, and unreal experiences are not fulfilling. The "Pleasure Machine" would be great for awhile, but really crappy if that was all you knew.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

I could possibly accept that explanation, were it not for the fact that in order to say "this is good" or "that is good," I compare "this" and "that" to something. What is it I compare them to in order to judge them good?

I would reply that those things are easily discernible as you contrast and compare things that you feel are a detriment to your self/situation vs. those you feel are a benefit. The things that benefit you are "good" (e.g. sugar in food, a vacation, a swim when hot), and the things that detriment you are "not good" (e.g. bitter tasting things, imprisonment, having to walk across a baked parking lot in bare feet). Basically, the human experience itself offers you loads of information on what is "good" vs. what is "bad". In other words - I don't need someone/something to tell me that eating something sweet tastes good, while eating something bitter is terribly unpleasant. I don't need to be informed by an outside party that I enjoy a vacation more than I do being locked up without access to anything. No one had to relay to me that walking across a heat-blasted black-top parking lot with bare feet is "bad" - my feet+brain already gave me plenty of information to come to a decision on that.

While choosing a career path, and whether or not to have children are more abstracted from body-responses informing you of the benefit/detriment of your choices - it isn't such a stretch to believe that environmental and social factors that we've been introduced to throughout our lives shape our complex minds in ways that give us the means to determine our benefits/detriments in that realm. To believe there is some supernatural agency providing you with those benefits/detriments is actually a lot further a stretch, in my opinion.