Is it possible for us to create a purpose?

[ArtieE]

You seem to be stuck in the mindset that what is beneficial to HUMAN BEINGS is definitive "good". This is inaccurate to say the least.

For instance take the Black Plague - "bad" right? Not for flies. They had a banner year for multiple years in a row. So which was it? Bad or good? Does the "good" shift with a change in perspective? The death of humans actually being a "positive" for something else? But how can this be? Isn't it death/detriment to humans always "bad"? The simple answer is "no" - it isn't.

And if "good" can change with a shift of perspective like that then you have no choice to admit that this happens all the time - and can even happen within the scope of like beings whose benefit/detriment is at hand. You lose your money in the stock market - someone else gained. Was the interaction good or bad? Bad for you, good for the other person... but the event as a whole? It ALL comes down to perspective. Not much in this universe is much more than energy being spent or gained - something benefiting to something else's detriment.

LOL well of course what is beneficial and good for humans differs from what is beneficial and good for flies we are after all two different species. About the stock market is it beneficial or not for society as a whole to have one?

 

[Parsimony]

The child is seeking what he or she believes is in his or her best interest. That's why I said, the good that is being sought in any particular example is what the agent believes it to be.

So you hold personal gratification to be identical to moral goodness then?

 

[Gambit]

So you hold personal gratification to be identical to moral goodness then?

I hold that everyone is seeking the good as he or she sees it. (Everyone always believes they are justified in whatever act they are performing. If they didn't believe that, then they wouldn't do it.)

 

[Parsimony]

I hold that everyone is seeking the good as he or she sees it.

So is that a yes or a no?

(Everyone always believes they are justified in whatever act they are performing. If they didn't believe that, then they wouldn't do it.)

No they don't. I've done things I've believed to be wrong and were not justified. Everyone has at one time or another. Temptation can overpower moral conviction under the right circumstances. Unless of course you don't think temptation exists or that it is not possible to give into it when it contradicts your moral code for some reason (which would be very much at odds with just about everyone's personal experiences).

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Not going to reply to your "stock market" question - that would be nothing more than changing the subject entirely. Instead I'll pick on this:

Only what he saw as good.What is actually good never changes. Just what people think is good.

This, right here - this proves my point. You basically admit that people define good for themselves. In plain English. And yet you claim that there is definitive "good" to be had. So here's one for you:

A suicide bomber. He sets aside "survival = good" completely and decides that his promised reward for making himself a death for his cause is better. Now, in doing this, he kills himself, and therefore rids the world of a troubled and unstable mind, even as he also kills several others in the process. Is the ultimate "good" is "survival" here - and his ignorance of it is the aberration? Or was he the aberration and the "good" is his exposure and eradication? Would his survival have been better, considering he is a mental pin-cushion?

The problem is, you keep flip-flopping between splitting the events up into individual parts, and only examining "good/bad" with respect to the individual members and activities in play, and yet use as the basis for comparison "good/bad" that is generally accepted for humanity as a whole. Choose a scope and stick to it.

 

[Gambit]

No they don't. I've done things I've believed to be wrong and were not justified. Everyone has at one time or another. Temptation can overpower moral conviction under the right circumstances. Unless of course you don't think temptation exists or that it is not possible to give into it when it contradicts your moral code for some reason (which would be very much at odds with just about everyone's personal experiences).

Everyone seeks to be happy as you do. (I don't know what is so difficult about this to accept.)

 

[Parsimony]

Everyone seeks to be happy as you do. (I don't know what is so difficult about this to accept.)

If it's easy to understand, then it should be a simple matter to answer a yes or no question with a yes or no. Do you consider personal gratification and moral goodness to be identical?

 

[Gambit]

If it's easy to understand, then it should be a simple matter to answer a yes or no question with a yes or no. Do you consider personal gratification and moral goodness to be identical?

What is moral is what leads to one's happiness. to one's good.

 

[Parsimony]

What is moral is what is leads to one's happiness. to one's good.

So you hold personal gratification to be identical with moral goodness then?

 

[Gambit]

So you hold personal gratification to be identical with moral goodness then?

I don't know what you mean by personal gratification.

 

[ArtieE]

You basically admit that people define good for themselves. In plain English. And yet you claim that there is definitive "good" to be had.

LOL of course people have different opinions about what is good never said otherwise. That doesn't change what is actually good.

A suicide bomber. He sets aside "survival = good" completely and decides that his promised reward for making himself a death for his cause is better. Now, in doing this, he kills himself, and therefore rids the world of a troubled and unstable mind, even as he also kills several others in the process. Is the ultimate "good" is "survival" here - and his ignorance of it is the aberration? Or was he the aberration and the "good" is his exposure and eradication? Would his survival have been better, considering he is a mental pin-cushion?

LOL how am I supposed to answer that? If you tell me exactly how the rest of his life would have turned out I'll tell you if his death was beneficial or detrimental for the rest of us.

 

[psychoslice]

I myself have no purpose in life, I simply live my life from day to day not expecting anything from that, to make a purpose is to destroy life, its Ok to plane for the so called future, but at the same time realizing that there is no such thing as a future, there is only her and NOW.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

LOL of course people have different opinions about what is good never said otherwise. That doesn't change what is actually good.

But who decides what is "actually good"? What has decided? Where is it written? Are you the keeper of this knowledge? Therein lies the problem - NO ONE can know what is "actually good" - because there is no verifiable/trustworthy/objective source for such a thing. And you can point to our "instincts" all you want - but if those are so overwhelmingly "good" then why do we feel the need to alter our children's behavior and force them to share with others when they obviously do not want to in the great majority of circumstances? Do you seriously believe that a growing human child would share if they weren't prompted to? In extremely rare circumstances, perhaps - but the main drive is to get while the getting is good. The instinct is certainly to "look out for #1" the vast majority of the time.

And maybe a different approach is needed here to make my point - if humans became extinct, would there - in your mind - still exist an ideal of what "is good" for humans? How could there when there are no humans to OBSERVE what is "good" vs. what is "bad"? Really, there would no longer exist such a thing as "good" for humans. Therefore, only when humans are present is "good" even applicable - which means that it is entirely based in human perception.

LOL how am I supposed to answer that? If you tell me exactly how the rest of his life would have turned out I'll tell you if his death was beneficial or detrimental for the rest of us.

I see - so if you knew all the details, then YOU could make the judgment of whether or not his survival vs. death was "good". Then you have admitted that you do believe yourself the keeper of the knowledge of what is, ultimately, "good". Interesting. I'll keep this in mind for the next time I need advice on an ambiguously god/bad decision I have to make.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Don't worry. We will experience doing all sorts of things but we won't have to build anything. When we wake up in a dream with a flying machine next to us, all we have to do is learn how to fly it, not build it.

Again, as a builder, why should I think such an arrangement is great? As someone who doesn't think living in an illusion would be great, why would I want that?

 

[Parsimony]

I don't know what you mean by personal gratification.

Personal gratification - the act of pleasing or satisfying oneself, especially the gratifying of one's own impulses, needs, or desires.

 

[ArtieE]

I see - so if you knew all the details, then YOU could make the judgment of whether or not his survival vs. death was "good".

I wouldn't make a "judgment". If the rest of his life was spent helping people his death was bad. If the rest of his life was spent hurting people, his death was good. I put it in black and white so you'd get the point.

Then you have admitted that you do believe yourself the keeper of the knowledge of what is, ultimately, "good". Interesting. I'll keep this in mind for the next time I need advice on an ambiguously god/bad decision I have to make.

You shouldn't need any advice about that. Simply do what helps people and avoid doing what hurts people. If you find that too difficult a concept to grasp ask us what to do.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

I wouldn't make a "judgment". If the rest of his life was spent helping people his death was bad. If the rest of his life was spent hurting people, his death was good. I put it in black and white so you'd get the point.You shouldn't need any advice about that. Simply do what helps people and avoid doing what hurts people. If you find that too difficult a concept to grasp ask us what to do.

You are, to be honest, ambiguous and contradictory in your statements when taking your posts in sum total. You seem to believe that you know "good" vs. "bad" definitively for EVERYONE - because that is what you are saying or have eluded to is that there is this higher "good" that you answer to and that everyone answers to, and have denied that it is subjective and have rejected many of my claims and examples showing that "good" can be something different to different people... and yet then you also turn around to say that "good" is different based on people's opinions of what is "good", and that "of course" people will have different ideas about what is "good" for them.

In the end I know what I deem "good". I know what I deem "bad". And I also know that that is about as far as my definitive knowledge of "good" and "bad" go without stepping into the realm of socially accepted mores and generally held morals. But as to whether even those more widely held ideas are absolutely "good" or "bad" - I make no such claims. But YOU do, and I don't understand how you can conscionably do so. Doing so is making a judgment, one for which you are, by no means, some ultimate authority. I mean... geez... just look at your first three sentences:

I wouldn't make a "judgment".

Followed by:

If the rest of his life was spent helping people his death was bad. If the rest of his life was spent hurting people, his death was good.

This IS casting a judgment - based on YOUR VIEW of the situation. What YOU feel is "good" vs. what YOU feel is "bad". If you can't see that then I am through with this conversation. There is obviously a brick wall that has a head buried in it somewhere and I just don't have the tools to break it down.

 

[Gambit]

Personal gratification - the act of pleasing or satisfying oneself, especially the gratifying of one's own impulses, needs, or desires.

I'm talking about conscious will, not overpowering impulses.

 

[ArtieE]

This IS casting a judgment - based on YOUR VIEW of the situation. What YOU feel is "good" vs. what YOU feel is "bad". If you can't see that then I am through with this conversation. There is obviously a brick wall that has a head buried in it somewhere and I just don't have the tools to break it down.

I haven't answered this post in detail it's so confused I don't know where to begin. Do your best to help people, try to avoid hurting people.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I'm talking about conscious will, not overpowering impulses.

Self gratification is doing something because it makes you feel alive, actualized, and typically something you can very easily get lost in.