Is it possible for you to do anything that God did not already know you would do?

[Falvlun]

OK....let's walk this through. You have four choices: A, B, C, and D. One of them is guaranteed ahead of time. For the sake of example let's say that it's "C". When the "decision" comes, can you choose "A"?

You make the same mistake as JMorris, in my opinion. Yes, the choice is guaranteed ahead of time, but it has been guaranteed ahead of time by your own choice. Why should we get the chance to choose twice?

Note: Though I believe this to be a good argument, my preferred argument is the one displayed in posts 554 and 570.

 

[JMorris]

Beaudreaux, Just a nudge to look at my post (#570)



The problem I see with this reasoning is that you are asking for the ability to choose twice. You yourself said that the "self that comes prior creates the self that comes after." For the future to exist (ie, for the future to be knowable), the present/past for that future must first occur. That means you have had the chance to choose the Pepsi. So yes, the choices have been made, but they've been made by you. Why should you get the chance to choose again? And more importantly, why doesn't your original choice count as free-will?

there is no need to choose twice if the future dosent exist prior to the present.
if the future exists, and the "choice" has been made, even if you argue it was made by you, there can be no deviation.
if there is only ever the present, then the future dosent have a set rail that it has to follow to its predestined conclusion.
if the future exists, and in that future i have pepsi in my belly, can i choose to not drink that pepsi?
if the present is all we have, then i dont have to drink that pepsi in order to create that set-in-stone future. i can create any future i wish. but if the future is known, and exists, then thats what must happen.

the original choice wouldnt be considered free will because there was never any options. there was only 1 future that could be created, so there was only ever 1 option to choose.

 

[Katzpur]

to my self-quote in context of what you said, if the future is knowable, then the future of that future is knowable as well. i have a "choice" between a pepsi, a coke, and a dr pepper, but in my future-future i have pepsi in my belly, then my future self drank that pepsi. the "self" that comes prior creates the "self" that comes after. if the future is knowable, it, in a sense, already exists, and so the choices have already been made. you can take god out the equation, it dosent matter who knows the future, if the future is knowable, and that future is true, then it must come true. so the events leading to that future must happen. i hope this makes sense, i think im explaining this reasonably well.

I guess I'm just not very good at thinking in those terms. But since this debate is about whether an omniscient God can permit us to have free will, I'd have to say that I don't see God as omniscient in the way you're describing. I don't see Him as knowing the future, but as knowing His creations and being able to predict, based on his knowledge, what their choices will be in a given set of circumstances. Anyway, I've had these debates before, and I always just end up wishing I hadn't, so that's my opinion for what it's worth.

 

[JMorris]

I guess I'm just not very good at thinking in those terms. But since this debate is about whether an omniscient God can permit us to have free will, I'd have to say that I don't see God as omniscient in the way you're describing. I don't see Him as knowing the future, but as knowing His creations and being able to predict, based on his knowledge, what their choices will be in a given set of circumstances. Anyway, I've had these debates before, and I always just end up wishing I hadn't, so that's my opinion for what it's worth.

im not sure i see anything wrong with your reasoning really. we obviously have 2 different ideas of what omniscience is, but i dont think that really matters. what im saying is that knowledge of the future negates free will. because if the future is knowable, then theres only 1 possible future to create, and so what may seem like many options, becomes only 1 option. because there is only 1 possible future to create.

if (from what i think your saying) god dosent actually know the future, but only knows us well enough to make an informed (like REALLY REALLY informed) guess, then i think that might leave free will open. if there is no existing future, then i can decide anything i wish, i can create any future i want, not just one where i have pepsi in my belly.

 

[Katzpur]

if (from what i think your saying) god dosent actually know the future, but only knows us well enough to make an informed (like REALLY REALLY informed) guess, then i think that might leave free will open.

Yes, you understand me correctly. I think, like you said, we're just defining the word "omniscient" somewhat differently.

 

[JMorris]

Yes, you understand me correctly. I think, like you said, we're just defining the word "omniscient" somewhat differently.

good enough for me

 

[Falvlun]

there is no need to choose twice if the future dosent exist prior to the present.

By definition, the future cannot exist prior to the present. The present must happen first.

if the future exists, and the "choice" has been made, even if you argue it was made by you, there can be no deviation.

Ok...

if there is only ever the present, then the future dosent have a set rail that it has to follow to its predestined conclusion.
if the future exists, and in that future i have pepsi in my belly, can i choose to not drink that pepsi?

No, because for the belly-full-of-pepsi future to exist, you must have already chose to have the Pepsi. I ask you again: Why should you get to choose twice?

if the present is all we have, then i dont have to drink that pepsi in order to create that set-in-stone future. i can create any future i wish. but if the future is known, and exists, then thats what must happen.

Yes, because that's the future you created.

Let's just switch this around a little bit: Let's say you just drank a Pepsi. Two minutes ago, in the past, you chose to drink that Pepsi. Does your present state of pepsi-drinking mean that your choice was set in stone two minutes ago-- that you had no choice but to drink the Pepsi? If your answer is no, then neither does the existence of the future negate your ability to choose in the present. If your answer is yes, then free-will doesn't exist anyway, and omniscience has nothing to do with it.

 

[Beaudreaux]

Okay, I'll apologize right off the bat because I haven't read the entire thread, but what do you mean when you say that one of the choices "is guaranteed ahead of time"? "Guaranteed" because it's being forced, or what? I'm trying to understand what you mean by "guaranteed."

The action is guaranteed to happen. Not in the sense that you get your money back if it doesn't, but in the sense that it WILL happen.

 

[Beaudreaux]

I agree that there is a past, but I don't find your evidence for a future convincing. Could you explain what experimental [Beaudreaux: I said "experiential"] data points to the actual existence of the future? Simply because one expects there to be a future, and plans and acts accordingly, doesn't mean that a future actually exists. (Actually, your proof for the existence of a future sounds suspiciously like "proof" for the existence of something else...)

We experience the confirmation of our idea of the future constantly. We know that things will happen to us that have not yet happened and, sure enough, they do.

Correction: There is nothing in existence that cannot be known. Things that are logically impossible to know, and things that don't have actuality, do not necessarily fall under the jurisdiction of omniscience.

Yeah that makes sense. Like "does God know the things he does not know?" But I don't see why the future is unknowable. I mean, it's unknowable to US, but why to God? The Bible speaks to prophecy and its fulfillment. It sounds like God knew what was coming.

You are moving the fenceposts. The question is whether omniscience precludes free-will, not if infalibility precludes free-will.

The infallibility is part and parcel of omniscience. How can it be omniscience if God is occasionally wrong about something?

Regardless, he would not have to state his educated guesses as truth. God could say that there is a 73.486% chance of you choosing Door 1, and he'd be precisely correct in that assessment, whether you chose Door 1 or not.

Like a cosmic poker player. It's an interesting concept, and it would explain away the problem. It does change the traditional nature of God, though. With this view, if we could build a big enough computer and gather enough experience, we could do everything God could do. If it's all doable and knowable, then humans should be able to do and know it as well. We just need time and experience, I suppose.

 

[Beaudreaux]

You make the same mistake as JMorris, in my opinion. Yes, the choice is guaranteed ahead of time, but it has been guaranteed ahead of time by your own choice. Why should we get the chance to choose twice?

Note: Though I believe this to be a good argument, my preferred argument is the one displayed in posts 554 and 570.

Now you are moving the goalposts. Ok, so you chose it before you chose it. The first time you chose it, did God know what you would choose?

 

[Kay]

This is not very intuitive. There is ample experiential data to justify the past and the future. Every moment in my life, I am aware that there are future moments for me. I even plan for them. And I am constantly looking back to events in my past; analyzing them, reliving them. What is your reason for denying the existence of past and future?

I don't deny that things have changed from what they once were (we call that the past) and that things will change from how they are now (we call that the future). We can even cause those changes to happen (plan). But the future isn't laid out. It doesn't already exist as if it's something we can travel to.

 

[Willamena]

We experience the confirmation of our idea of the future constantly. We know that things will happen to us that have not yet happened and, sure enough, they do.

There is an argument to be made for the idea that the present that is "confirmed" is so because it is the present that was expected.

 

[cottage]

There are several threads going on about omniscience and free will and I have asked this question in them all. To date, no one has answered. So, I am starting a thread dedicated to the question in the hopes that someone will have the intellectual integrity to respond honestly. The question is not loaded, leading or a trick question. It is straightforward and is properly answered with a "yes" or a "no" with follow up explanation welcome. The question is:

Is it possible for you to do ANYthing that God did not already know you would do?
​

I eagerly await responses.

My answer is a firm No, for I can see no logical reason why God's omniscience cannot be exactly that. Surely if our brains, that is to say the mechanism by which we have the ability to reason and act, is given to us by God, then I think we can assume predictability and foreknowledge of our actions. A designer creates a product and can even predict it's long-term performance and indicate its probable obsolesence date. But unlike an imperfect human, in the case of an omnipotent God there are by definition no probabilities or adjusted forecasts. We do what we're expected to do. God cannot be surprised, disappointed, delighted, angry or frustrated. Hume said: 'Whatever is, may not be'. But (with apologies to Hume) I would add to that 'except where it is ordained by God'. None of this is to say that God does or must exist.

Cottage

 

[JMorris]

By definition, the future cannot exist prior to the present. The present must happen first.

well it certainly seems that way, and if that is the case, and what you believe, then im not sure what your argueing. if the future cannost exist concurently to the "present" then the future cannot be known. so we would have free will.

you may have missed where Mr Emu correctly pointed out that "present" is a perception, if you go back in time 100 years, to the people there it is the present, if you were to go ahead in time 100 years, to the people there it would be the present.

if you have options, then you have a number of possible futures that will come of that. if you have only 1 possible future, then you only have 1 possible option.

if the future is knowable, then, on some level, that future must already exist in order for it to be knowable. if, in that future, it is known i will drink that pepsi, can i choose not to when the option comes?

the problem is that the future precedes the option, so that i must choose the 1 option that will create the 1 future. if the option precedes the future, then if i have 3 options, i can have a possible 3 futures.

 

[Enlighten]

There are several threads going on about omniscience and free will and I have asked this question in them all. To date, no one has answered. So, I am starting a thread dedicated to the question in the hopes that someone will have the intellectual integrity to respond honestly. The question is not loaded, leading or a trick question. It is straightforward and is properly answered with a "yes" or a "no" with follow up explanation welcome. The question is:

Is it possible for you to do ANYthing that God did not already know you would do?
​

I eagerly await responses.

Dear Beaudreaux,

God knows everything we do before we know it ourselves, it is all in his plan, everything happens for a reason and that reason is gods plan.

God Bless

x

 

[JMorris]

Dear Beaudreaux,

God knows everything we do before we know it ourselves, it is all in his plan, everything happens for a reason and that reason is gods plan.

God Bless

x

then there is no free will, gotcha

 

[~Amin~]

Is it possible for you to do ANYthing that God did not already know you would do?
​

I eagerly await responses.

No, He Knows All Things, Hidden or visible.

 

[Willamena]

There are several threads going on about omniscience and free will and I have asked this question in them all. To date, no one has answered. So, I am starting a thread dedicated to the question in the hopes that someone will have the intellectual integrity to respond honestly. The question is not loaded, leading or a trick question. It is straightforward and is properly answered with a "yes" or a "no" with follow up explanation welcome. The question is:

Is it possible for you to do ANYthing that God did not already know you would do?
​

I eagerly await responses.

'I am' is 'God', so you tell me.

 

[Beaudreaux]

My answer is a firm No, for I can see no logical reason why God's omniscience cannot be exactly that. Surely if our brains, that is to say the mechanism by which we have the ability to reason and act, is given to us by God, then I think we can assume predictability and foreknowledge of our actions. A designer creates a product and can even predict it's long-term performance and indicate its probable obsolesence date. But unlike an imperfect human, in the case of an omnipotent God there are by definition no probabilities or adjusted forecasts. We do what we're expected to do. God cannot be surprised, disappointed, delighted, angry or frustrated. Hume said: 'Whatever is, may not be'. But (with apologies to Hume) I would add to that 'except where it is ordained by God'. None of this is to say that God does or must exist.

Cottage

I completely agree with you (and welcome to RF!). What it DOES mean is that those who believe in an omniscient God must understand that, if they are correct, human beings can have no free will. Even God himself cannot have free will because he also must know what HE will do in the future.

 

[Beaudreaux]

Dear Beaudreaux,

God knows everything we do before we know it ourselves, it is all in his plan, everything happens for a reason and that reason is gods plan.

God Bless

x

I see. If this is so, then human beings cannot have free will. Every "decision" we will ever make in our life is foreknown. While it may feel to us like we are making a free choice, all of our actions are predestined with an omniscient God.