Is it possible for you to do anything that God did not already know you would do?

[Willamena]

I completely agree with you (and welcome to RF!). What it DOES mean is that those who believe in an omniscient God must understand that, if they are correct, human beings can have no free will. Even God himself cannot have free will because he also must know what HE will do in the future.

There is a difference to be had between understanding 'the future' and knowing it.

 

[meogi]

Does an omniscient being know all realities or just ours? I don't see why you can't grasp that an omniscient being knows EVERYTHING. IF he knows all realities, then I don't see how there is conflict with free will.

If omniscience covers EVERYTHING (Something we can't really comprehend... he would know all universes with different variables than our own... all possible outcomes and resulting outcomes from certain options when we or ANYTHING make 'decisions' [instinct/freewill/nature/etc].) And the being would KNOW it with ABSOLUTE certainty. They would also know what decisions we made/make/will make, but that doesn't NEGATE free will.

Free will is what makes the decision. I keep bringing up intent because intent is key in free will. If something was decided FOR YOU (from A, B, or C) then it wouldn't have been free will. But if YOU decided it, then it would be free will. An omniscient being would KNOW you choose C, but he ALSO knows all those other outcomes.

Your argument that simply because he KNOWS your choice he is FORCING you to choose it, is wrong imo. Why does your choosing that outcome negate the other possible outcomes? Perhaps each decision we make we actually make ALL of them; we just are only able to perceive ONE.

Can an omniscient being not just understand our own perception through life? Why is he forcing it on us, in your mind?

 

[Enoch07]

You still have not explained why we don't have options Beau. We always have options to choose from a, b, c, d. Regardless of whichever you choose it is the option God knows you will choose, because He is all knowing. So how does that cancel free will? No matter how you word it you, the human being, made the decision between options a, b, c, d. That ability to make the decision between those options is free will in action. The only way your free will would be canceled is if God purposely made you choose something different than you would have chosen on your own.

 

[Beaudreaux]

Does an omniscient being know all realities or just ours? I don't see why you can't grasp that an omniscient being knows EVERYTHING. IF he knows all realities, then I don't see how there is conflict with free will.

If omniscience covers EVERYTHING (Something we can't really comprehend... he would know all universes with different variables than our own...all possible outcomes and resulting outcomes from certain options when we or ANYTHING make 'decisions' [instinct/freewill/nature/etc].) And the being would KNOW it with ABSOLUTE certainty. They would also know what decisions we made/make/will make, but that doesn't NEGATE free will.

Yes, and he would also know the one you live in/create with your actions. He knows exactly which of the multiverses you will be part of as a result of your actions. As such, as the OP implies, it is impossible for you to do anything that conflicts with that foreknowledge.

Free will is what makes the decision. I keep bringing up intent because intent is key in free will.

If God knows what you will do, then intent is an illusion.

If something was decided FOR YOU (from A, B, or C) then it wouldn't have been free will. But if YOU decided it, then it would be free will. An omniscient being would KNOW you choose C, but he ALSO knows all those other outcomes.

If you choose C there are no other outcomes. A choice is singular.

Your argument that simply because he KNOWS your choice he is FORCING you to choose it, is wrong imo.

Not my argument at all. I simply state that if your future is foreknown with certainty, you cannot have free will. I don't recall saying that anyone forces you to act a certain way. The only thing that is important is that YOU don't.

Why does your choosing that outcome negate the other possible outcomes? Perhaps each decision we make we actually make ALL of them; we just are only able to perceive ONE.

It never ceases to amaze me the lengths people will go to try and get out of this paradox. So, you think that at the same time you chose not to kill someone in anger that you also DID kill them in anger, but you only perceive the didn't-kill part? What experience in reality leads you to this conclusion?

Can an omniscient being not just understand our own perception through life? Why is he forcing it on us, in your mind?

Please cease and desist building strawmen. I do not claim that an omniscient God would FORCE our actions to be a certain way. I only point out that if your future is foreknown, then choice is an illusion.

 

[Beaudreaux]

You still have not explained why we don't have options Beau. We always have options to choose from a, b, c, d. Regardless of whichever you choose it is the option God knows you will choose, because He is all knowing. So how does that cancel free will? No matter how you word it you, the human being, made the decision between options a, b, c, d. That ability to make the decision between those options is free will in action. The only way your free will would be canceled is if God purposely made you choose something different than you would have chosen on your own.

Enoch....I would need a scientific calculator to calculate how many times I have explained this to you, but what the heck. I will try some bolding for emphasis. Maybe this one will penetrate.

• As you have admited in previous posts, IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR YOU TO DO SOMETHING GOD DID NOT FOREKNOW.
• So, when A, B, C, and D actions come up, GOD FOREKNOWS WHICH ONE ACTION YOU WILL TAKE.
• That means that IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR YOU TO TAKE THE OTHER ACTIONS.
• So, these options you keep talking about ARE NOT OPTIONS because you CANNOT take them.
• A situation in which it is only possible to take ONE action is not a choice.

Now, do me a favor before start that post that begins with "But we still have options." Read that bullet list again. Understand that God knows all and that you cannot fool him with your actions. You can do NOTHING he did not already know you would do millions of years before you were born. Your life can only confirm God's amazing nature; that He knows the future with a certainty.

Does this help?
)()(

 

[Enoch07]

Thats the beauty of it. You could have taken any one of the other actions you wanted to, but then that would have been the action God foresaw you taking instead. The ability to choose between those options is free will.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Thats the beauty of it. You could have taken any one of the other actions you wanted to, but then that would have been the action God foresaw you taking instead. The ability to choose between those options is free will.

...round and round, round and round...the wheels on the shortbus go round and round...

 

[Beaudreaux]

Thats the beauty of it. You could have taken any one of the other actions you wanted to, but then that would have been the action God foresaw you taking instead. The ability to choose between those options is free will.

Enoch, I give up. You are clearly not capable of understanding this paradox. It makes me sad for you, but maybe I am wrong to be so. It seems to be easier for you to live your life this way and perhaps that's for the best. Best of luck to you, friend.

 

[Comicaze247]

Thats the beauty of it. You could have taken any one of the other actions you wanted to, but then that would have been the action God foresaw you taking instead. The ability to choose between those options is free will.

 

[Enoch07]

Enoch, I give up. You are clearly not capable of understanding this paradox. It makes me sad for you, but maybe I am wrong to be so. It seems to be easier for you to live your life this way and perhaps that's for the best. Best of luck to you, friend.

The same could be said of you. To me it is the simplest thing in the world to understand. But I cannot make you see the truth of it. Maybe one day you will no longer be blinded to it.

 

[Enlighten]

The same could be said of you. To me it is the simplest thing in the world to understand. But I cannot make you see the truth of it. Maybe one day you will no longer be blinded to it.

I have been through the same situation as you with that person Enoch, they seem to be all out to create some sort of victimisation to anyone that mentions something they do not believe to be fact in thier eyes...

 

[Beaudreaux]

I have been through the same situation as you with that person Enoch, they seem to be all out to create some sort of victimisation to anyone that mentions something they do not believe to be fact in thier eyes...

How did I victimize you????

 

[idea]

Is it possible for you to do ANYthing that God did not already know you would do?

No - God knows everything.
We have free will though - knowing something and causing it are two different things. We cause it, so it is our will.

I can look at TV guide and "know" what is on TV tonight. Just because I know it, does not mean that I am responsible for it.

 

[Beaudreaux]

No - God knows everything.
We have free will though - knowing something and causing it are two different things. We cause it, so it is our will.

I can look at TV guide and "know" what is on TV tonight. Just because I know it, does not mean that I am responsible for it.

Just because you cause something does not mean you excercise free will. You only have free will if you have more than one option to choose from. If you only have one options and cannot choose anything else, then your can hardly be said to have made a choice.

Consider this summary. Excuse the caps/bolding/underlining. I do not mean to yell. I copied this from an earlier post where I was trying for the umpteenth time to explain this to someone who was not getting it.

• As you have admited , IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR YOU TO DO SOMETHING GOD DID NOT FOREKNOW.
• So, when A, B, C, and D actions come up, GOD FOREKNOWS WHICH ONE ACTION YOU WILL TAKE.
• That means that IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR YOU TO TAKE THE OTHER ACTIONS.
• So, other options ARE NOT OPTIONS because you CANNOT take them.
• A situation in which it is only possible to take ONE action is not a choice.

If God knows what you will do then you can only do what he foreknows. It may feel like a choice, but it cannot be.

 

[JMorris]

The same could be said of you. To me it is the simplest thing in the world to understand. But I cannot make you see the truth of it. Maybe one day you will no longer be blinded to it.

how delightfuly absurd:drool:

 

[JMorris]

No - God knows everything.
We have free will though - knowing something and causing it are two different things. We cause it, so it is our will.

I can look at TV guide and "know" what is on TV tonight. Just because I know it, does not mean that I am responsible for it.

thats a horrible analogy to try to make your point with. the TV Guide can be wrong, your trusting that it always right in order for you to "know" what is going to be on. so thats the belief of knowledge, not actual knowledge

 

[Comicaze247]

Maybe one day you will no longer be blinded to it.

:biglaugh:

Oh the irony . . .

 

[Falvlun]

We experience the confirmation of our idea of the future constantly. We know that things will happen to us that have not yet happened and, sure enough, they do.

This is no way confirms the actual existence of the future. A theist could say "I experience the confirmation of my idea of God constantly" or "I expect to see God's hand in every day life, and sure enough, I do." Should this be admitted as demonstratable proof of the existence of God? The ancient Greeks believed things fell to the earth because "it was in their nature to fall"-- this is a teleological philosophy. Sure enough, things fell. Did this confirm the idea that all things have an inherent purpose?

Just wondering: If you believe that the future exists, how do you reconcile that concept with free-will, no omniscient God needed?

Yeah that makes sense. Like "does God know the things he does not know?" But I don't see why the future is unknowable. I mean, it's unknowable to US, but why to God? The Bible speaks to prophecy and its fulfillment. It sounds like God knew what was coming.

Because the future doesn't exist.
As far as prophecy and such, I would think that God knows precisely what he will do in the future. (Particularly if you consider the God of the Bible: he is infinite, which means he can't change: he already encompasses all possible change.) So, the prophecies could simply be those events that God knows for a fact that he will bring about.

The infallibility is part and parcel of omniscience. How can it be omniscience if God is occasionally wrong about something?

You got me there.

Like a cosmic poker player. It's an interesting concept, and it would explain away the problem. It does change the traditional nature of God, though. With this view, if we could build a big enough computer and gather enough experience, we could do everything God could do. If it's all doable and knowable, then humans should be able to do and know it as well. We just need time and experience, I suppose.

Yeah, to be honest, I have trouble reconciling the traditional Christian concept of God with free-will. I just don't think the omniscience, per se, is the thing that kills it.

By and by, are you familiar with Asimov's concept of psychohistory? It's developed in his Foundation series. Basically, using the mathematics of group action, it is able to predict future events on the large scale (too many variables on the small scale). Very interesting concept.

 

[Falvlun]

Now you are moving the goalposts. Ok, so you chose it before you chose it. The first time you chose it, did God know what you would choose?

Well, I would say no, simply because there would be nothing for him to know at that point. The present must happen before the future. There must be a past choice behind a future state. The future state couldn't exist otherwise.

I think the concept does largely rely upon the idea of God being "outside of time", but I know that you hate that argument.

 

[Enoch07]

• A situation in which it is only possible to take ONE action is not a choice.

Why is it impossible to take the other actions?

Just because God foresaw you taking a certain action does not take away the fact that you are able to choose from a number of actions. I do not understand why you consider it the same as not having any options at all. If you did not have any options then you could only take A and have no other choices at all. This is not the case. The fact that you have the cognitive thought to be able to choose A,B,C,or D is proof positive of free will.