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Is it possible that the Bible involves exaggeration? (and King Solomon)

Audie

Veteran Member
I found this:
"....A hyperbole is an exaggeration, but it is not exactly the same as an exaggeration...."

Maybe that's like saying "a duck is a bird but is not exactly the same as a bird"? I mean if there were 2 birds it doesn’t necessarily mean there are 2 ducks?
Equivocation games are games of the deceitful
 

Sargonski

Well-Known Member
Sorry it seems I had I misread it. I think it actually talks about 142,000 sacrifices. In both 1 Kings 8:63 and 2 Chr 7:5 it says there were 22,000 cattle and 120,000 sheep and goats. Though it makes sense to use a godly number for a sacrifice.

Sure ... lots of sacrifice in Solomon's time .. much of which he spent building "High Places" for near every other religion in the region .. on which sacrifices were conducted .. some of which were Human .. but I digress.

This much meat at one time seems somewhat excessive .. for a short period of time as people are eating this meat .. and this Party would feed 1 million people for a week or two .. would be a big party throughout the entire land and ... sacrifices at many temples / Alters throughout the land .. but it is not that undreasonable. Population of the entire Region could chow down alot of meat in a week or two of partying.
 

DNB

Christian
I find it odd that you take miracles like that resurrection story and the global flood literally but don’t believe the 700 + 300 verse is literal. It mostly sounds like plausible history to me especially compared to the resurrection of many holy people story.
Mama mia - I never said implausible, I said that I can't comment for lack of knowledge of the circumstances at the time
 

DNB

Christian
It seems like you are the one who cannot tell the difference between literal and exaggeration. Also you cannot accept that hyperbole IS exaggeration.

Yes it will be tedious for you, because, your position is untenable. It takes a lot of flip-flopping to claim "It IS literally true, but, also NOT literally true" simultaneously. And to claim "It IS hyperbole, and it is NOT exaggerated" even though hyperbole IS exaggeration.



There is a massive shift in the rhetoric in the book of John, it is almost like it is a different Jesus. Like I said, compare the Lord's prayer, "give us this day our daily bread, forgive our trespasses... thy will be done on heaven and in earth, amen" with "truly, truly, you can have anything you want as long as you ask in my name". One is proper prayer, the other is magic where "Jesus' name" is a magic word.

The "truly, truly" part is what you keep ignoring. It's not "truly-true" DNB. Are you able to see that?
If you chose to be so hyper-literal, I don't know what to say to you.
Yes, you are correct; 'Truly, truly' is an expression of veracity. But what you don't appreciate is the implied moral requirement on the part of the requestor. I have no idea how else to explain this to you.
God made a covenant with Abram that He will bless him and make him into a great nation - no other stipulations.
But later, we see that there are caveats and further clauses to the agreement - was the first promise an exaggeration?

Initial Covenantal Promise
Genesis 12

1 The LORD had said to Abram, “Go from your country, your people and your father’s household to the land I will show you.
2 “I will make you into a great nation, and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you.”
4 So Abram went, as the LORD had told him; and Lot went with him. Abram was seventy-five years old when he set out from Harran.

Later Iteration
Genesis 17

1 When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to him and said, “I am God Almighty ; walk before me faithfully and be blameless.
2 Then I will make my covenant between me and you and will greatly increase your numbers.”
3 Abram fell facedown, and God said to him,
4 “As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations.
5 No longer will you be called Abram ; your name will be Abraham, for I have made you a father of many nations.
6 I will make you very fruitful; I will make nations of you, and kings will come from you.
7 I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you.
8 The whole land of Canaan, where you now reside as a foreigner, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you; and I will be their God.”
9 Then God said to Abraham, “As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come.
10 This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised.
11 You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you.

12 For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner—those who are not your offspring.
13 Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant.
14 Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.”

...BTW, verse 14 also alludes to the other discussion that we had on the irrevocable nature of one's nationality - Israel is a theocracy, if you reject or disobey God you will be ostracized from the community.
 
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dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
If you chose to be so hyper-literal, I don't know what to say to you.
Yes, you are correct; 'Truly, truly' is an expression of veracity.

So, there's no reason to criticize my approach as you said it's correct what I'm saying. Of course you're missing the gravity of what it means for a righteous Jew to say "Amen, Amen". (Num 5:22)

But what you don't appreciate is the implied moral requirement on the part of the requestor. I have no idea how else to explain this to you.

I understand what you're saying, but that it's adding to the text to make it seem less ridiculous.

Jesus says truly truly you will do more than me. That's an enormous exaggeration or an outright lie. Secret option numbers 3: Jesus never said it.

You keep ignoring the simple fact the Lord's prayer is proper. This promise to grant wishes like a genie in a bottle is not.

You were participating in the thread about what it means to be Israel. You've got a Christian over there fixated like a dog to a bone, salivating over the promises of magical powers in th book of John. And they're not wrong. Magical powers are indeed promised. Jesus' names is described like a magic word.

I was talking with another person away from the forum. They're heart is broken. They are crushed. They were devout. They lost two people very close to them. They prayed in Jesus' names for miracle to save their sister and their best friend. They both passed, neither were healed. You know what happened next? They're preaching the atheist gospel to anyone who will listen. And they're angry; rightfully so.

I think these promises do a lot of harm. There's nothing good that comes from them except setting up false expectations and tempting people with magical powers. And this ignores that either the "truly, truly" is false or the "magical wishes" are false. There's nothing good that comes from this.

If a person believes it's true and tries to execute it, they're either going to working magic, or they're going to be incredibly disappointed which leads to a crisis of faith. The best middle option is to consider it exaggeration.

The rest of the verses you brought are irrelevant to the "magical wishes" promised in the book of John.
 

DNB

Christian
So, there's no reason to criticize my approach as you said it's correct what I'm saying. Of course you're missing the gravity of what it means for a righteous Jew to say "Amen, Amen". (Num 5:22)



I understand what you're saying, but that it's adding to the text to make it seem less ridiculous.

Jesus says truly truly you will do more than me. That's an enormous exaggeration or an outright lie. Secret option numbers 3: Jesus never said it.

You keep ignoring the simple fact the Lord's prayer is proper. This promise to grant wishes like a genie in a bottle is not.

You were participating in the thread about what it means to be Israel. You've got a Christian over there fixated like a dog to a bone, salivating over the promises of magical powers in th book of John. And they're not wrong. Magical powers are indeed promised. Jesus' names is described like a magic word.

I was talking with another person away from the forum. They're heart is broken. They are crushed. They were devout. They lost two people very close to them. They prayed in Jesus' names for miracle to save their sister and their best friend. They both passed, neither were healed. You know what happened next? They're preaching the atheist gospel to anyone who will listen. And they're angry; rightfully so.

I think these promises do a lot of harm. There's nothing good that comes from them except setting up false expectations and tempting people with magical powers. And this ignores that either the "truly, truly" is false or the "magical wishes" are false. There's nothing good that comes from this.

If a person believes it's true and tries to execute it, they're either going to working magic, or they're going to be incredibly disappointed which leads to a crisis of faith. The best middle option is to consider it exaggeration.

The rest of the verses you brought are irrelevant to the "magical wishes" promised in the book of John.
Does God answer prayers, and, if so, under what circumstances and to what degree?
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Does God answer prayers, and, if so, under what circumstances and to what degree?

That is God's perogative. The Lord's prayer. "Thy will be done." This is the opposite of what is written in the book of John which is "MY will be done."

God made a covenant with Abram that He will bless him and make him into a great nation - no other stipulations.
But later, we see that there are caveats and further clauses to the agreement - was the first promise an exaggeration?

The first promise is intended literally.

is employing other means of communication to make a point

Let's try this? What is the point that is being made by employing hyperbole instead of using direct straight forward language? What is gained by using hyperbole in the below "promise"?
John 14:12-14​
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.​
And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.​
If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

What is the point of leaving out the qualifiers here and making it into something where Jesus' name is like a "magic word"?
 

excreationist

Married mouth-breather
John 14:12-14
Here is the NIRV (clearer language than the old KJV)
What I’m about to tell you is true. Anyone who believes in me will do the works I have been doing. In fact, they will do even greater things. That’s because I am going to the Father. And I will do anything you ask in my name. Then the Father will receive glory from the Son. You may ask me for anything in my name. I will do it.
It says "anything" twice in a row.
Though the first sentence says they'd "do the works I have been doing" implying that the believer should use those wishes for good works....
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Here is the NIRV (clearer language than the old KJV)

It says "anything" twice in a row.
Though the first sentence says they'd "do the works I have been doing" implying that the believer should use those wishes for good works....

Ok... its still 180 degree shift from the lord's prayer. agreed? it doesn't matter if it's used for good works, it's still making God into a "light switch" and the human is becoming the God.

And it's still not literally true, else one of the Christians would be able to ask for my mother's maiden name in order to "glorify the father through the son".

What is the point of using hyperbole? What value does it bring? What is the reason for not speaking directly about this?
 

excreationist

Married mouth-breather
@dybmh
BTW in case your wishes aren't granted believers could try forming a group:
Matthew 18:19-20
“Again, here is what I tell you. Suppose two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for. My Father in heaven will do it for you. Where two or three people gather in my name, I am there with them.”
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
@dybmh
BTW in case your wishes aren't granted believers could try forming a group:
Matthew 18:19-20
“Again, here is what I tell you. Suppose two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for. My Father in heaven will do it for you. Where two or three people gather in my name, I am there with them.”

This verse is false. Gather 3 together and ask for my mother's maiden name. God is not a light switch that can be turned on and off. That is called "magic", where the "magician" asserts their own will as if they are a god.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
I believe in a kind of God but also believe that the Bible could include exaggeration....
e.g.
About King Solomon:
1 Kings 11:3

I mean I don't understand how there could be that many women of "royal birth".

1 Kings 3:4 - I think this could be historical:

But not sure about this: (144,000 sacrifices)
1 Kings 8:63 / 2 Chronicles 7:5

I think the following could be historical but the number is interesting:
1 Kings 10:14 / 2 Chronicles 9:13
I believe it makes sense that it is an estimate since the numbers are too neat to be real.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Exaggeration? Defintely.

"You can move mountains if you believe"
"Ask for anything from the Father in my name, and you will receive it..."
"None get to the father except through me..."

Are a few that come to mind immediately. I'm sure there are more.
I believe those are not exaggerations. The reason is that one does not need to exaggerate about what an omnipotent God can do.
 

Sargonski

Well-Known Member
I believe those are not exaggerations. The reason is that one does not need to exaggerate about what an omnipotent God can do.

Perhaps those are not exaggerations .. but your comment certainly is. No where in the OT is God desribed as "All Powerfull - All Knowing - Omnipotent" .. and in fact the reverse is true. God is described as anthropomorphic .. with human failings and some of the more nasty of human characteristics .. a God who makes mistakes .. regrets those mistakes .. then makes the same mistake over again.... a Flip Flopping God who says one thing one day and something else the next .. seemingly unable to make up mind from one day to the next.

Perhaps you are referring to some God other than the one of the Bible .. my apologies if that is the case.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
I believe those are not exaggerations. The reason is that one does not need to exaggerate about what an omnipotent God can do.

The scripture does not phrase it as an option of what God can do. It says the human is in control of God and God will obey them.

Again.

The verses say that God is obeying them.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
@Jayhawker Soule , I did not see a reply to my questions, and you do not permit private messages, at least from me.



I think these promises do a lot of harm

It brings to mind Elisha Ben Abuyah. Have you ever read Milton Steinberg's As A Driven Leaf?

What is the promise made to the acher?
What is the promise made to the driven leaf?

What is the potential for harm?
What is the potential for good?
 
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