Is it possible that the Bible involves exaggeration? (and King Solomon)

[DNB]

Off topic here. This is my thread about it from yesterday. Check it out friend.

Cloak No Dagger

(sing-songy / tune of Andy Williams It's A Wonderful Time) "It's the moist wonderful time of the year. With the raindrops returning And treetops relinquishing all of their leaves!!!" Time to break my cloak back out. There's a nip in the air. Nevermind the cat hair. It's seems to be...

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Sorry, I don't get it - it's your autumn wear?

 

[DNB]

I didn't say it made the entirety a fable. I said that all of it could be hyperbole from start to finish. You objected due to the OP asking about another exaggeration which you are saying puts the whole book in question. I am saying, rightfully, that exaggerating about the promises of moving mountains, receiving anything in prayer, cursing fig trees, making more and better miracles than Jesus himself, does, indeed, put the entire book into question. QUESTION. Q-U-E-S-T-I-O-N.

The key word above is "promise". That's what it is when a religious Jewish person says "Amen, Amen". Christian's don't know this because they do not study the Hebrew bible the way we do. When I read the book of John that sticks out like a sour thumb. If those statements beginning with "Truly Truly" ( Amen, Amen in greek ) are not literally true, that is the violation of an promise made with "heaven and earth" as witness. Amen,Amen is swearing to the LORD and all its host. That's why I mentioned it earlier.

I think that it's quite clear when the Bible is not using conventional speech, and is employing other means of communication to make a point. If a person feels that since one area of the text is written in a hyperbolic manner, it does not necessitate that the rest of Scripture is bound to the same form of expression.

 

[DNB]

I have @Soapy on ignore. I do not trust their integrity. What ever point you would like to make, please make it.

I have tried - the OP was about passages that were meant to be understood as historical facts, relating to time, places, amounts and events - things that can be measured or verified. You thought that situations relating to faith and sincerity, extremely subjective issues, were related to the OP.

If I said to you that if you win the soccer game I'll give you $100, does it not go without saying that cheating would disqualify you?
@Soapy was pointing out the same principle as I was - Jesus' caveat was, and has always been throughout Scripture, that faith, sincerity and abiding by God's will were prerequisites for any of his promises.

 

[The Hammer]

Sorry, I don't get it - it's your autumn wear?

Ask in the gen discussion link I posted. I don't want to derail this thread moreso.

 

[excreationist]

Jesus' caveat was, and has always been throughout Scripture, that faith, sincerity and abiding by God's will were prerequisites for any of his promises.

Matthew 21:21
Jesus replied, “Truly I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and it will be done.

Mark 11:23
“Truly I tell you, if anyone says to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and does not doubt in their heart but believes that what they say will happen, it will be done for them.

It says nothing about a need to abide by God's will. The examples of the fig tree and the mountain in the sea seem to be arbitrary and pointless - well they just show a display of miraculous power.

Note in the second verse it says "if anyone"..... it doesn't say anything about them having to be a follower of Jesus, etc. He could have said to his disciples "if any of you"....

 

[Soapy]

Yes, I entirely agree ...if we can only get @dybmh to appreciate the point.

Will he have responded publicly to the post, though, if he hadn’t ‘blocked his ears, blinded his eyes, and hardened his heart’ against truth and righteousness?

 

[DNB]

Matthew 21:21
Jesus replied, “Truly I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and it will be done.

Mark 11:23
“Truly I tell you, if anyone says to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and does not doubt in their heart but believes that what they say will happen, it will be done for them.

It says nothing about a need to abide by God's will. The examples of the fig tree and the mountain in the sea seem to be arbitrary and pointless - well they just show a display of miraculous power.

Note in the second verse it says "if anyone"..... it doesn't say anything about them having to be a follower of Jesus, etc. He could have said to his disciples "if any of you"....

I meant Scripture in its entirety - if one passage says have faith, another says keep it in line with God's will, and another one says to ask in Jesus' name, etc...
Exaggerations imply deceit or ignorance, whereas hyperbole or inclusivity, when knowing the parameters, is used for effect. All is possible, as far as what your needs are, for those who have faith. If you ask for a mansion or several million dollars, you may be declined your request - for obvious reasons - it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to be saved.

God wants what's best for us, so He doesn't comply with misguided desires, obviously. Because He loves us, He will never deprive us of a sincere request, provided that it is in our best interest to do so.

 

[excreationist]

All is possible, as far as what your needs are, for those who have faith. If you ask for a mansion or several million dollars, you may be declined your request - for obvious reasons

If you can make a mountain throw itself into the sea then a mansion or a million dollars seems easy. And who could possibly “need” a mountain to throw itself into the sea?

 

[excreationist]

It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to be saved.

I wonder how many camels have gone through the eye of a needle and how many rich men have gone to heaven instead of hell….

 

[DNB]

If you can make a mountain throw itself into the sea then a mansion or a million dollars seems easy. And who could possibly “need” a mountain to throw itself into the sea?

This is the point - differentiating between intended hyperbole, which does not constitute exaggeration, and inflated statistics.

 

[DNB]

I wonder how many camels have gone through the eye of a needle and how many rich men have gone to heaven instead of hell….

This is becoming tedious - can you not tell the difference between an idiom, a metaphor, allegory, or analogy, or a historical fact or literal statement?

 

[excreationist]

This is the point - differentiating between intended hyperbole, which does not constitute exaggeration, and inflated statistics.

Just because it seems impossible it doesn't mean it isn't meant to be literal....
e.g
Matthew 27:52-53
and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

Do you think that passage is meant to be literal? I think it is as miraculous as a mountain throwing itself into the sea...

 

[excreationist]

This is becoming tedious - can you not tell the difference between an idiom, a metaphor, allegory, or analogy, or a historical fact or literal statement?

Do you believe the Flood covering all of the mountaintops is literal? According to the evidence it seems it was only local. My point is that sometimes it isn't obvious whether something is meant to be literal or not.

 

[DNB]

Just because it seems impossible it doesn't mean it isn't meant to be literal....
e.g
Matthew 27:52-53
and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

Do you think that passage is meant to be literal? I think it is as miraculous as a mountain throwing itself into the sea...

Yes, 100%, that passage was meant to be 100% literal. The author is recounting the facts that occurred during Jesus' passion. He is impartial, as far as his journalistic integrity is concerned, intending only to persuade people to believe in the Gospel of Christ.

Although both the mountain miracle and the resurrected saints are phenomenal occurrences, one is stated as a historical and verifiable fact (back then), and the other was meant for emphasis.

The mountain story is true, one definitely can cause a mountain to displace itself into the sea by faith. The point being the power of faith,. as opposed to the pointlessness of the act itself.

You need to start appreciating the subtleties of certain literary conventions and devices.

 

[Sargonski]

I believe in a kind of God but also believe that the Bible could include exaggeration....
e.g.
About King Solomon:
1 Kings 11:3

I mean I don't understand how there could be that many women of "royal birth".

1 Kings 3:4 - I think this could be historical:

But not sure about this: (144,000 sacrifices)
1 Kings 8:63 / 2 Chronicles 7:5

I think the following could be historical but the number is interesting:
1 Kings 10:14 / 2 Chronicles 9:13

I don't think it is that big of a deal there are exaggerations . specially about the wives .. this is how stories go .. but thre is also some very good history there .. How much is 20 tons of Gold back in the day ... perhaps it is not so much . considering every one had Gold.. you could do some research and come up with an estimate of whether this is reasonable.. Cyrus likely had that many in is Harem but doubtfull King Solomon did. What he did have was a rather large little trible empire .. and for sure the coffers were full .. having won the spoils of the day from all the towns captured.. .. We have unearthed amazing Palacial structures in Samaria or one of the many Northern Towns from the House of Omri .. a few generations after Solomon.. the Israelites were a big deal at one point.. would have amassed vast riches .. and Solomon was at the Peak ..

144,000 sacrifices .. thats one of those perfect numbers you find very often .. a little too perfect .. the redacters in the days of Persia took some artistic liberty .. what can we say you have to look for the main thrust of what is going on through the Fog religious history.

 

[excreationist]

You need to start appreciating the subtleties of certain literary conventions and devices.

I find it odd that you take miracles like that resurrection story and the global flood literally but don’t believe the 700 + 300 verse is literal. It mostly sounds like plausible history to me especially compared to the resurrection of many holy people story.

 

[excreationist]

144,000 sacrifices .. thats one of those perfect numbers you find very often .. a little too perfect ..

Sorry it seems I had I misread it. I think it actually talks about 142,000 sacrifices. In both 1 Kings 8:63 and 2 Chr 7:5 it says there were 22,000 cattle and 120,000 sheep and goats. Though it makes sense to use a godly number for a sacrifice.

 

[dybmh]

This is becoming tedious - can you not tell the difference between an idiom, a metaphor, allegory, or analogy, or a historical fact or literal statement?

It seems like you are the one who cannot tell the difference between literal and exaggeration. Also you cannot accept that hyperbole IS exaggeration.

Yes it will be tedious for you, because, your position is untenable. It takes a lot of flip-flopping to claim "It IS literally true, but, also NOT literally true" simultaneously. And to claim "It IS hyperbole, and it is NOT exaggerated" even though hyperbole IS exaggeration.

I think that it's quite clear when the Bible is not using conventional speech, and is employing other means of communication to make a point. If a person feels that since one area of the text is written in a hyperbolic manner, it does not necessitate that the rest of Scripture is bound to the same form of expression.

There is a massive shift in the rhetoric in the book of John, it is almost like it is a different Jesus. Like I said, compare the Lord's prayer, "give us this day our daily bread, forgive our trespasses... thy will be done on heaven and in earth, amen" with "truly, truly, you can have anything you want as long as you ask in my name". One is proper prayer, the other is magic where "Jesus' name" is a magic word.

The "truly, truly" part is what you keep ignoring. It's not "truly-true" DNB. Are you able to see that?

 

[excreationist]

Also you cannot accept that hyperbole IS exaggeration.

I found this:

Is hyperbole the same as exaggeration or is it a type of exaggeration? | Socratic

A hyperbole is an exaggeration, but it is not exactly the same as an exaggeration. When someone uses an exaggeration, the person expects the reader to believe what he is saying. For example, if you said you had 10 pieces of homework to do when, in reality, you only had 5, you would be...

socratic.org

"....A hyperbole is an exaggeration, but it is not exactly the same as an exaggeration...."

Maybe that's like saying "a duck is a bird but is not exactly the same as a bird"? I mean if there were 2 birds it doesn’t necessarily mean there are 2 ducks?

 

[dybmh]

I found this:

Is hyperbole the same as exaggeration or is it a type of exaggeration? | Socratic

A hyperbole is an exaggeration, but it is not exactly the same as an exaggeration. When someone uses an exaggeration, the person expects the reader to believe what he is saying. For example, if you said you had 10 pieces of homework to do when, in reality, you only had 5, you would be...

socratic.org

"....A hyperbole is an exaggeration, but it is not exactly the same as an exaggeration...."

Maybe that's like saying "a duck is a bird but is not exactly the same as a bird"? I mean if there were 2 birds it doesn’t necessarily mean there are 2 ducks?

The verses begin with "Truly,truly" ( Amen, Amen ) in greek. That's a problem. Either the "truly, truly" at the beginning is false, or the promise to get whatever they wish for is false. They can't both be true.

If one decides that when Jesus says "Truly, truly" it is not intended to be understood literally, that is a major problem going though the book of John and looking at all the verses where Jesus uses that to preface what is said.

G281 - amēn - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)