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Is it possible to proselytize from a place of humility?

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
Have you worked in sales? I have, and people will often object and then buy. Also, many people hear the gospel many times in many ways before conversion.
And are people who conduct sales like this considered "humble" in your eyes? Remember the point of the OP.

Sometimes I share the gospel with someone and they say, "I'm an atheist, not interested," so I respond, "Really? Can you tell me more specifically why you aren't interested?" and then I wind up sharing anyway with an open-minded person!
I enjoy talking about this stuff, believe it or not. I actually quite enjoy being approached with an attempt at my conversion - because I know, full well, that I will get to ask the believer the questions that burn in my mind and make it impossible for me to believe... and I also know that their attempts at answers will only lead to more questions, with not one of those answers ever being sufficient or worthwhile. It affirms my position every single time. And, quite frankly, I enjoy seeing those people squirm. There's no humility in that, I admit... but that isn't what I am going for at that point. I am not the one who decided to try and push my beliefs on another. And, in fact, I DO NOT do that... even with my lines of questioning. As regards the realm of the spiritual, I lack belief, and beyond that all I have are questions. Questions I have realized (after countless conversations that all take more or less the same route) believers do not honestly ask on their own. Is it proselytizing to simply ask questions when baseless assertions are made?
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
You have "light?" Then justify that you do.

If you want to take responsibility for the welfare of other people, then you owe a duty to those people - and all you would have follow you - that you really do know the way and really are speaking from a place of knowledge.

Can you do that?

Yes, I can. Thanks for asking.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
But you just admitted you see that they can know God without having to hear about Jesus. That doesn't sound like they are in the dark if they know God. Does it to you?

If you let your light shine, which you should, then I applaud you. Everyone needs to do this. But letting your light shine, does not mean trying to sell them on a belief system when they are doing quite well finding God in theirs. That's not letting your light shine. That's something else, other than that. That's about the ego, not Love.

What kind of person am I? One that sees the Light of God in every religion, even when those who are part of them may not see that themselves and think the others are all wrong. God smiles at this, I believe. :)

According to the Bible, God smiles at gospel presentations: "How blessed are those who bring good tidings, glad news!" - Isaiah

If you see the light of God in every religion, then you must agree with me that our atheist friends dwell in deep darkness. Perhaps we can both help them?!
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
What makes you think they’re stumbling in the dark, simply because they prefer a different lighting system that you don’t recognize?

All those who love the light come to Jesus eventually IMO, I help them speed their way to the correct destination.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
And are people who conduct sales like this considered "humble" in your eyes? Remember the point of the OP.


I enjoy talking about this stuff, believe it or not. I actually quite enjoy being approached with an attempt at my conversion - because I know, full well, that I will get to ask the believer the questions that burn in my mind and make it impossible for me to believe... and I also know that their attempts at answers will only lead to more questions, with not one of those answers ever being sufficient or worthwhile. It affirms my position every single time. And, quite frankly, I enjoy seeing those people squirm. There's no humility in that, I admit... but that isn't what I am going for at that point. I am not the one who decided to try and push my beliefs on another. And, in fact, I DO NOT do that... even with my lines of questioning. As regards the realm of the spiritual, I lack belief, and beyond that all I have are questions. Questions I have realized (after countless conversations that all take more or less the same route) believers do not honestly ask on their own. Is it proselytizing to simply ask questions when baseless assertions are made?

Try me. I love good questions and have been told many, many times, "Gosh, you don't come back with the stock answers I hear from other Christians . . . "
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
But what if I can assert, with all honesty, that your light is intensely useless to me? From my perspective, your light is completely broken, and illuminates nothing.

Then I could tell you what this little light of mine has done for me:

A great marriage
A fabulous sex life with my spouse
Devoted, obedient children
Light and answers for all life's trials
Friends and respect
A sharpened mind
Money enough for freedom
Health and wellness
Etc. etc.

My "illuminating nothing" has saved my LIFE, not just my AFTERLIFE.
 
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sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
All those who love the light come to Jesus eventually IMO, I help them speed their way to the correct destination.
That has not been my experience in 35 years of a profession in ministry, spiritual listening and counseling. Unless you count Jesus as much broader than the Christian avatar presented by orthodoxy.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Then I could tell you what this little light of mine has done for me:

A great marriage
A fabulous sex life with my spouse
Devoted, obedient children
Light and answers for all life's trials
Friends and respect
A sharpened mind
Money enough for freedom
Health and wellness
Etc. etc.

My "illuminating nothing" has saved my LIFE, not just my AFTERLIFE.
Perhaps your light wouldn’t do that for everyone? It’s not a magic wand; it’s a relationship that takes both parties. The light has to match the one being enlightened. I’m glad it appears to have worked for you, and perhaps it may work for others, but there are no guarantees, I think, when human variables are factored in.
 
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Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
According to the Bible, God smiles at gospel presentations: "How blessed are those who bring good tidings, glad news!" - Isaiah
To me, a "gospel presentation" is a life lived full of joy, not one where you make arguments for why you believe the things you do. That Light that shines from that Joy, is the presentation. Words get in the way of that.

If you see the light of God in every religion, then you must agree with me that our atheist friends dwell in deep darkness.
I think a lot of people both in religions and out of them dwell in deep darkness. I've known many atheists who are not in darkness, and in some cases they shine more brightly than a great many Christians do. So I'm not so willing to stick entire groups into a category of 'lostness'. I've known too many Christians who proclaim with the mouth their faith in God, yet their minds are in darkness and deep self-deceptions.

I see the Light wherever it shines, from the Muslim, to the Hindu, to the Christian, to the Buddhist, to the Atheist, to the Agnostic, to Tax Collector, to the Prostitute, to the sorts of folks Jesus saw the Light in, regardless of their designations, or beliefs. This is how Love sees, and what Love does.

Perhaps we can both help them?!
I think by being a Light in your being, it speaks far more of God than whatever words or thoughts or ideas or arguments, or points of view we may express. Those are reflections of our minds and our egos. They are far duller and confusing than those that come from the light in one's eyes when they have be touched by God. That's what matters. That helps the whole world, believers and unbelievers alike.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
Try me. I love good questions and have been told many, many times, "Gosh, you don't come back with the stock answers I hear from other Christians . . . "
Sure:

During the night of the passover, God basically held a gun to the heads of the first-born male Egyptian children and threatened to pull the trigger if their parents didn't accept him as God, repent and believe. Then, after He followed through and pulled the trigger, He most certainly blamed the Egyptians for the fact that He did so. If someone came up to you, grabbed your kid and said "renounce Jesus or I will shoot", and you refused, and so they shot, should YOU go to prison for the death of your child? Question: Why should the behavior of God surrounding the passover not be considered a terrorist attack on the Egyptian people?

According to The Bible, God supposedly loves humanity, and this love is most often expressed to be "unconditional," or sometimes it is even said that "God is love." The expectation is that God is absolutely good and moral, and in order for humans to hold that expectation, it follows that it must mean that His view of morality adheres to what is best for humans. I say this because to say that His moral landscape is NOT aligned with that of humanity means that He would be capable of acting against a human's best interests, but those actions may still be "moral" by some other definition. Which would be fine - but doesn't jive with the idea that God has some ultimate version of love toward humans. Question: How can one characterize the flood, the passover, God's edict that the Israelites kill the Canaanites, God requesting that Abraham kill his son, God overlooking slavery at the hands of Israelites and yet helping them escape the same in the Exodus, etc. as coming from a God who "is love", or supposedly expresses the epitome of love for humans?

Pertaining to the specific act of God requesting that Abraham kill his son in order to prove his loyalty and belief, if God supposedly loved Abraham, and had Abraham's best interests at heart, then how was the correct response that Abraham actually start to go through with the killing? Question: How is stressing someone you love and forcing them to face a (fake) horrifying choice (one that would result in someone's wrongful death being on their conscience) considered "love" by any stretch of the imagination? Bonus question: How could the most moral option available to Abraham not be to tell God to shove it? Which choice would YOU be more likely to reward Abraham for making?

If God enacts a system of rewards and punishments for behavior or actions while we are here on Earth, as many claim with assertions like "There must still be something wrong with your life if you are experiencing [X]" (where "[X]" is some detrimental condition or situation), then he does so secretly, and without directly tying the good-deed or misdeed to the consequence. Extreme and obvious example: A hurricane hits New Orleans, and people start claiming that it was because it is a place replete with debauchery and God was displeased. Question: How is this any better than if I, as a father, were to reward my sons good grades by secretly placing a $5 bill for him to find on his way to school, or punishing my my daughter, who I secretly saw/caught smoking from afar, by secretly placing a spider in her bed at night? Note: I would place my bet on their being some evidence of this kind of clandestine punishment/reward system recorded somewhere in The Bible, for example, references to reward for tithing which are not spelled out or stated in any actual terms. But I have no actual references at the moment of writing this.

God is often compared to a father figure, and in fact many pastors will use analogies that paint God as a father, or refer to Him as their ultimate father. This is a theme replete throughout Christianity. Question: If I, as a father, decided to only interact with my children through others - never once talking to them myself, never meeting them personally, and giving them no instruction or guidance by my own hand - only ever sending others to them to relay to them that I loved them, only ever letting others do all the work of raising them - would I be considered a "good" father by any criteria? Isn't this how it is told that God functions as a "father?"
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
I read their posts here, and often find atheists here mocking religionists at a religious forum. Darkness IMHO.
Well fair enough. I don't know if it's necessarily darkness, though. A reaction to bad theists I find is often the cause. And yeah, theism doesn't have the best of reputations, mostly from the vocal more extreme sets.
I don't know. Saying all those who have the light go to Jesus inevitably creates an "us vs them" divide. Is that helpful in proselytizing? And is it truly humble to say that your way is the only or best way?
 
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A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
Then I could tell you what this little light of mine has done for me:

A great marriage
A fabulous sex life with my spouse
Devoted, obedient children
Light and answers for all life's trials
Friends and respect
A sharpened mind
Money enough for freedom
Health and wellness
Etc. etc.

My "illuminating nothing" has saved my LIFE, not just my AFTERLIFE.

I would be willing to place money on the idea that you wrote this expecting that my life falls down in many of these categories, and that I would sit up and take note, because you have so much that I do not. If you were willing to be honest about it, I feel I would win that bet. Anyway:

  • I too have a great marriage and sex life (with my spouse - had to make sure I threw that in there, I've been called out on smaller such "omissions" by religious types wanting to paint me as a hedonistic monster before)
  • My children are some of the best people on Earth - straight A's, kind, courteous, empathetic, imaginative, they come to me with any and every concern they have, and this may sound conceited or something, but I can tell they have genuine respect for me - which feels absolutely amazing, but I try not to let it go to my head.
  • I don't face "trials." What happens happens, what doesn't is of no concern. I deal with things as they come, and have either been ridiculously lucky, or have handled it all without even realizing any of it was a "trial". Not sure I can know which.
  • Friends I am probably lacking in by most standards. The ones I have are good ones... the kind you can chuckle over the dumbest things imaginable without the slightest hint of judgment from either party. The kind who can be absent for your life for months, or even years, and when you do see them again, its like you were never apart. And (again, don't judge me for this) the fools will not stop telling me I am one of the smartest people they know, and I honestly hope it isn't true.
  • I have not once worried for money. And not because I was born into it or live in debt without a care. In college, my friends used to get angry at me when pay-day would roll around because it would remind me that I also needed to deposit the check from two weeks prior! I also put no undue value on money. I know what it can do, but I like to live simply. Don't care the car I drive. Don't care the clothes I wear. Don't buy music or even much in the way of entertainment at all. Don't buy into the vices - no smoking, rare drinking, no gambling. My phone is old and cracked, and I couldn't care much less. My hobbies are mostly relegated to things I can accomplish with my mind like writing, poetry and computer programming.
  • Believe it or not, as I age my health is improving. I started a work-out regimen of sorts a couple years back, doing just three sets of 3 different random, but targeted exercises, but making sure I do them every day possible, and it keeps me limber and feeling great - able to handle any normal amount of work or physical stresses without being sore the next day. I am also vegan for ethical and health reasons. This results in a lot of low scores for things like cholesterol and fantastic blood pressure. I have also been getting sick (like cold/flu/etc.) not only less and less often, but every time I do get sick, I can feel it coming on, I increase fluid and caloric intake, get plenty of rest, and the symptoms stay super mild for like 2 days, and then its done. No joke - I used to get sick and know it was going to be 2 weeks before I was back to normal. Lately I don't even miss a beat. I know I'm "sick", because those symptoms are there... just barely perceptible.
All this... and no God. Makes me wonder if one even needs to carry a "light" at all. A better analogy for my situation is that my eyes have just become really well accustomed to the "darkness."
 
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sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Then I could tell you what this little light of mine has done for me:

A great marriage
A fabulous sex life with my spouse
Devoted, obedient children
Light and answers for all life's trials
Friends and respect
A sharpened mind
Money enough for freedom
Health and wellness
Etc. etc.

My "illuminating nothing" has saved my LIFE, not just my AFTERLIFE. I invite you to meet God and receive His blessings--they come through Jesus Christ especially, IMO.
The problem here is that you’re conflating the heretical prosperity gospel with spiritual enlightenment. Jesus was not married, no nookie that we know of, had no children, had no respect from the establishment, no money, and was executed in one of the most horrific brands of state terrorism imaginable. Yet he was enlightened. From this post, it appears all you have to share is your brand of Osteenism.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
I would be willing to place money on the idea that you wrote this expecting that my life falls down in many of these categories, and that I would sit up and take note, because you have so much that I do not. If you were willing to be honest about it, I feel I would win that bet. Anyway:

  • I too have a great marriage and sex life (with my spouse - had to make sure I threw that in there, I've been called out on smaller such "omissions" by religious types wanting to paint me as a hedonistic monster before)
  • My children are some of the best people on Earth - straight A's, kind, courteous, empathetic, imaginative, they come to me with any and every concern they have, and this may sound conceited or something, but I can tell they have genuine respect for me - which feels absolutely amazing, but I try not to let it go to my head.
  • I don't face "trials." What happens happens, what doesn't is of no concern. I deal with things as they come, and have either been ridiculously lucky, or have handled it all without even realizing any of it was a "trial". Not sure I can know which.
  • Friends I am probably lacking in by most standards. The ones I have are good ones... the kind you can chuckle over the dumbest things imaginable without the slightest hint of judgment from either party. The kind who can be absent for your life for months, or even years, and when you do see them again, its like you were never apart. And (again, don't judge me for this) the fools will not stop telling me I am one of the smartest people they know, and I honestly hope it isn't true.
  • I have not once worried for money. And not because I was born into it or live in debt without a care. In college, my friends used to get angry at me when pay-day would roll around because it would remind me that I also needed to deposit the check from two weeks prior! I also put no undue value on money. I know what it can do, but I like to live simply. Don't care the car I drive. Don't care the clothes I wear. Don't buy music or even much in the way of entertainment at all. Don't buy into the vices - no smoking, rare drinking, no gambling. My phone is old and cracked, and I couldn't care much less. My hobbies are mostly relegated to things I can accomplish with my mind like writing, poetry and computer programming.
  • Believe it or not, as I age my health is improving. I started a work-out regimen of sorts a couple years back, doing just three sets of 3 different random, but targeted exercises, but making sure I do them every day possible, and it keeps me limber and feeling great - able to handle any normal amount of work or physical stresses without being sore the next day. I am also vegan for ethical and health reasons. This results in a lot of low scores for things like cholesterol and fantastic blood pressure. I have also been getting sick (like cold/flu/etc.) not only less and less often, but every time I do get sick, I can feel it coming on, I increase fluid and caloric intake, get plenty of rest, and the symptoms stay super mild for like 2 days, and then its done. No joke - I used to get sick and know it was going to be 2 weeks before I was back to normal. Lately I don't even miss a beat. I know I'm "sick", because those symptoms are there... just barely perceptible.
All this... and no God. Makes me wonder if one even needs to carry a "light" at all. A better analogy for my situation is that my eyes have just become really well accustomed to the "darkness."

And . . . when your wonderful life and my wonderful life has come to an end . . .
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Sure:

During the night of the passover, God basically held a gun to the heads of the first-born male Egyptian children and threatened to pull the trigger if their parents didn't accept him as God, repent and believe. Then, after He followed through and pulled the trigger, He most certainly blamed the Egyptians for the fact that He did so. If someone came up to you, grabbed your kid and said "renounce Jesus or I will shoot", and you refused, and so they shot, should YOU go to prison for the death of your child? Question: Why should the behavior of God surrounding the passover not be considered a terrorist attack on the Egyptian people?

According to The Bible, God supposedly loves humanity, and this love is most often expressed to be "unconditional," or sometimes it is even said that "God is love." The expectation is that God is absolutely good and moral, and in order for humans to hold that expectation, it follows that it must mean that His view of morality adheres to what is best for humans. I say this because to say that His moral landscape is NOT aligned with that of humanity means that He would be capable of acting against a human's best interests, but those actions may still be "moral" by some other definition. Which would be fine - but doesn't jive with the idea that God has some ultimate version of love toward humans. Question: How can one characterize the flood, the passover, God's edict that the Israelites kill the Canaanites, God requesting that Abraham kill his son, God overlooking slavery at the hands of Israelites and yet helping them escape the same in the Exodus, etc. as coming from a God who "is love", or supposedly expresses the epitome of love for humans?

Pertaining to the specific act of God requesting that Abraham kill his son in order to prove his loyalty and belief, if God supposedly loved Abraham, and had Abraham's best interests at heart, then how was the correct response that Abraham actually start to go through with the killing? Question: How is stressing someone you love and forcing them to face a (fake) horrifying choice (one that would result in someone's wrongful death being on their conscience) considered "love" by any stretch of the imagination? Bonus question: How could the most moral option available to Abraham not be to tell God to shove it? Which choice would YOU be more likely to reward Abraham for making?

If God enacts a system of rewards and punishments for behavior or actions while we are here on Earth, as many claim with assertions like "There must still be something wrong with your life if you are experiencing [X]" (where "[X]" is some detrimental condition or situation), then he does so secretly, and without directly tying the good-deed or misdeed to the consequence. Extreme and obvious example: A hurricane hits New Orleans, and people start claiming that it was because it is a place replete with debauchery and God was displeased. Question: How is this any better than if I, as a father, were to reward my sons good grades by secretly placing a $5 bill for him to find on his way to school, or punishing my my daughter, who I secretly saw/caught smoking from afar, by secretly placing a spider in her bed at night? Note: I would place my bet on their being some evidence of this kind of clandestine punishment/reward system recorded somewhere in The Bible, for example, references to reward for tithing which are not spelled out or stated in any actual terms. But I have no actual references at the moment of writing this.

God is often compared to a father figure, and in fact many pastors will use analogies that paint God as a father, or refer to Him as their ultimate father. This is a theme replete throughout Christianity. Question: If I, as a father, decided to only interact with my children through others - never once talking to them myself, never meeting them personally, and giving them no instruction or guidance by my own hand - only ever sending others to them to relay to them that I loved them, only ever letting others do all the work of raising them - would I be considered a "good" father by any criteria? Isn't this how it is told that God functions as a "father?"

Q1. Are you aware that God remembered/recompensed the slaughter of the firstborn Jewish males when he judged Egypt? Are you aware of how often people thrust the Egyptian judgment "problem" at me without once ever mentioning why it was that God "did nothing" when the Egyptians slew every male child of Israel they could?

Q2. Are you aware that God is not only love, but embodies other moral maxims within Himself, like justice? Should love push aside justice? And since all die/all are judged, have you considered how God can choose/is sovereign over WHEN a person dies (since all die now) or that God, when He takes a life you think was a bad choice, might have just taken the life of a Hitler or Stalin from us?

Q3. Are you aware that after three days of sorrow/contemplation, Abraham "got" that God would be able to resurrect Issac, and that this three days "lost son" who was "revived" is a perfect foreshadowing of the the gospel resurrection of Christ?

Q4. Are you aware that the Bible explains how not every natural disaster like a hurricane is the result of human sin? Are you aware that hurricanes, for example, provide many benefits to the ecosystem?

Q5. Are you aware that God interacts directly with all of His children, and only sometimes indirectly also?
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
The problem here is that you’re conflating the heretical prosperity gospel with spiritual enlightenment. Jesus was not married, no nookie that we know of, had no children, had no respect from the establishment, no money, and was executed in one of the most horrific brands of state terrorism imaginable. Yet he was enlightened. From this post, it appears all you have to share is your brand of Osteenism.

Where have I mentioned money here? What is your interpretation of "an abundant life"?
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Where have I mentioned money here? What is your interpretation of "an abundant life"?
Money isn’t the only “prize” on the list of prosperity. And I thought we were discussing enlightenment, not abundance. See? You’re conflating the two. You appear, from this post, to believe that “enlightenment” and “abundance” are the same thing. Seems like your bulb may not be so bright as you imagine.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Well fair enough. I don't know if it's necessarily darkness, though. A reaction to bad theists I find is often the cause. And yeah, theism doesn't have the best of reputations, mostly from the vocal more extreme sets.
I don't know. Saying all those who have the light go to Jesus inevitably creates an "us vs them" divide. Is that helpful in proselytizing? And is it truly humble to say that your way is the only or best way?

It may not be humble, although it should be couched in humility, but is it true? If Jesus is the true light of the world, who am I to NOT proselytize?
 
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