Is it possible to see God's 'face'?

[Soapy]

thanks for the reply. I would like to zero in on "WALKING", and "Hearing".
using the Ancient Hebrew Lexicon of the Bible, (AHLB), and the Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Dictionaries of the Greek and Hebrew Testaments, the term WALKING here is not figurative as with "heard" in the verse which is the past tense of hear. these are not abstract action, but concrete.

which begs to understand that God is a Spirit. in order to make these concrete action, there had to be some kind of MANIFESTATION. why do 101G say this, because of the past tense word, "hear". what do I mean? Adam and Eve up to now was Spiritually in tune to God. because there was no separation .... NO SIN. so they ..... "heard" God voice before. but now, fallen from grace, they are NAKED BEFORE GOD, NO COVERING VIA the MIND. so now God's presence must be manifested physically for the Mind to cover the actions which are now exposed to the whole, world, (SHAME). these are physical actions.

now, as you said, did God manifest physically in a body? the AHLB states this WALKING here is physical. The pictograph is a picture of shepherd staff. and a picture of the palm of the hand. Combined these mean "staff in the palm". A nomad traveled on foot with a staff in his hand. so we have .... "PHYICAL MOVEMENT".

the bible do not say what was the source or the mechanism of this PHYICAL MOVEMENT, nor will 101G.

I will only say what the bible says .... ONLY, neither add, nor takeaway from his word.

101G.

I often see lightening ‘Walking’ over hill tops.

I see lightening ‘Leaping’ from cloud to cloud in the heavens.

‘And God spoke saying “This is my son - believe him” Some say it was an angel but some said it was thunder”

 

[Redemptionsong]

Oh boy!!! Ok., I tell you a truth… today I went to the medical surgery to give blood for a blood test. That’s the truth…

Do you know that the spirit of God was in that statement I just made?

How?

Because what I said was true… and the spirit of God: the spirit of the Father IS the spirit of truth!!

You are struggling to NOT UNDERSTAND what the TITLE, ‘Eternal Father’, means. You are trying to disguise the fact that you recognise the spirit of truth in what I said to you!

In doing what you are doing you expose the very thing I says about belief in the trinity - that it is a false belief… You yourself have exposed that truth because the spirit of truth is hard to lie to without being exposed!

You are trying to play the game of prove a negative!

The spirit of God IS the spirit of the Father.
The spirit of the Father is the spirit of truth.
The spirit of the Father is the spirit of God.

God sent His spirit into the hearts of those who are His… He sent His spirit IN FULL into the heart of Jesus because Jesus was sinless. To those - all the others - he sent His sevenfold spirit in partial amounts … and each one received varied amounts of the spirit meaning varied attributes of the spirit : some as teachers; some as healers ; some as reminders ; some as great workers…etc. Seven gifts from the one spirit

Because God is not above all things because he created all things.

God is amongst all things because His spirit is amongst all things… Truth is everywhere - even heathens know right from wrong even if they choose to ignore truth.

God is in all things because He created all things. His spirit is all encompassing though it can be defied - to the defers detriment.

You expend a lot of words, on numerous threads, trying to convince the world that Jesus Christ is not worthy of being called, 'My Lord and my God' [John 20:28].

Do you believe that Jesus Christ is worthy to be called, 'My Lord and my God'?

This is a straightforward question that requires a straightforward answer!

 

[101G]

I often see lightening ‘Walking’ over hill tops.

I see lightening ‘Leaping’ from cloud to cloud in the heavens.

‘And God spoke saying “This is my son - believe him” Some say it was an angel but some said it was thunder”

(smile), 1 Kings 19:11 "And he said, Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the LORD. And, behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the LORD; but the LORD was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the LORD was not in the earthquake:" 1 Kings 19:12 "And after the earthquake a fire; but the LORD was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice." 1 Kings 19:13 "And it was so, when Elijah heard it, that he wrapped his face in his mantle, and went out, and stood in the entering in of the cave. And, behold, there came a voice unto him, and said, What doest thou here, Elijah?"

101G.

 

[101G]

the figurative expressions referring to the arm of God are simply metaphors for his might and actions.

so, I will ask once more was his ARM manifested in Flesh, yes or no?

101G

 

[101G]

I don't object at all to physical movement. I object to the human form. In the past you have provided the details from the AHLB for individual words. You did so with "Panah" and "Panai". Would you please provide that for the Hebrew word for "walking"?

H1980 הָלַךְ halak (haw-lak') v.
to walk.
{in a great variety of applications, literally and figuratively}
[a primitive root., akin to H3212]
KJV: (all) along, apace, behave (self), come, (on) continually, be conversant, depart, + be eased, enter, exercise (self), + follow, forth, forward, get, go (about, abroad, along, away, forward, on, out, up and down), + greater, grow, be wont to haunt, lead, march, X more and more, move (self), needs, on, pass (away), be at the point, quite, run (along), + send, speedily, spread, still, surely, + tale-bearer, + travel(-ler), walk (abroad, on, to and fro, up and down, to places), wander, wax, (way-)faring man, X be weak, whirl.
Compare: H3212

using the Noah Webster's 1828 Dictionary of American English
WALKING, ppr. Wauking. Moving on the legs with a slow pace; moving; conducting ones self.
WALKING, n. Wauking. The act of moving on the feet with a slow pace.

Genesis 2:14 is a river flowing. Genesis 7:18 is the ark floating.

PHYICAL MOVEMENT

I agree with manifestation. I agree with spirit. ( If you do choose to look up the word which is being translated as "in the cool", you'll see this is precisely where I was heading. )

the cool is dependent on the term DAY. for the COOL OF, OF, OF, the DAY and DAY here is physical H3117 יוֹם yowm (yome) n-m.
1. a day (as the warm hours).

so in the COOL OF, OF the DAY will have to morning, or Evening, that is opposite of the WARM HOURS of the day.

understand, by using "COOL", and it is the Hebrew word
H7307 רוּחַ ruwach (roo'-ach) n-f.
1. wind.

the wind makes the cool of the day, which is either morning or evening.

101G.

 

[Soapy]

You expend a lot of words, on numerous threads, trying to convince the world that Jesus Christ is not worthy of being called, 'My Lord and my God' [John 20:28].

Do you believe that Jesus Christ is worthy to be called, 'My Lord and my God'?

This is a straightforward question that requires a straightforward answer!

Jesus is sad to be called ‘My Lord and My God’ by the disciple, Thomas.

Those are said to be THOMAS’ expulsion after realising that the man standing before him in the upper room was no other than the man he had walked and talked with over many days, weeks, and months.

But he certainly did not mean that Jesus was the one true God of the Jews. Thomas was a Jew - and Jews believed that God is one… and so that is what Thomas also believed.

Thomas explicitly stated it was HIS ‘Lord’, and ‘HIS GOD’… that creates a problem since no Jew believed a man was God.

God is SPIRIT.

God does not have flesh and bone.

Jesus had just PROVED to Thomas that he, Jesus, WAS NOT A SPIRIT!

And further, what were the reactions of the other TEN DISCIPLES, one of whom was Peter, whom Jesus had made the lead disciple in the group.
The answer is that nothing is written of their ‘SUPPOSED EYE OPENING REALISATION THAG THEY WERE LOOKING AT YHWH THE ALMIGHTY FATHER AND GOD OF ALL THINGS!’.

And even further, Eleven believers in the one God whom NO MAN HAS EVER SEEN suddenly is in their midst … and they go back to their day jobs only a few short weeks later?

And Almighty God appeared only to show Thomas that almighty God is not a spirit but had flesh and bone like every human being?

I think you need to ditch the trinity ideology faster than ditching from your hands a hot iron cake straight from the furnace of debauchery!

 

[IndigoChild5559]

so, I will ask once more was his ARM manifested in Flesh, yes or no?

101G

He has no literal arm to manifest. I will say this only one more time, and then I'm moving on. The arm of God refers to his might and actions.

God has never EVER manifested as a man.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Thomas explicitly stated it was HIS ‘Lord’, and ‘HIS GOD’… that creates a problem since no Jew believed a man was God.

It's quite correct to believe that no man is God. It says in Numbers 23:19, 'God is not a man, that he should lie'.

However, Jesus Christ is the only mediator between God and men.

1 Timothy 2:5. 'For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ'.

So, Jesus was a man (on earth), but he was also the one mediator between God and men. To mediate he must possess of God the Spirit that enables him to represent God as well as man. And, being the only mediator able to represent both God and man, he stands out as someone unique. In other words, he is no ordinary man.

The realization the Jesus was more than an ordinary man only hit Thomas when he saw the resurrected Jesus. It was then that it became clear that Jesus Christ was, indeed, his Lord and his God. The Lord had become personal to Thomas, as Jesus Christ would to all who receive baptism in the Holy Spirit.

 

[101G]

He has no literal arm to manifest. I will say this only one more time, and then I'm moving on. The arm of God refers to his might and actions.

God has never EVER manifested as a man.

Isaiah 63:5 "And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me."

now, last time did his own POWER manifested in flesh... yes or no?
no side answer is need... only a yes or no.

101G.

 

[101G]

God has never EVER manifested as a man.

you better read Isaiah chapter 53 and see his "OWN ARM" as a man..... (smile).... YIKES!

101G.

 

[dybmh]

Let's run with what you hold to be true, and see if it can be applied consistently.

God is Spirit. The Spirit of God does not manifest itself to the eyes of men.

Whoa. I didn't say that. I said Gen 18 is mysterious. I said we don't really know what Abraham saw. I said that other appearances are handled differently. And at the end I made a global statement that the LORD does not have a human form in the Hebrew bible.

A good reason for this is in Exo 33, where the LORD has multiple faces, the word translate as "hand" isn't really a "hand", the word for "back-side" is also ambiguous, and the glory of the LORD which is the subject of this exchange at the end of Exo 33 is "seen" by many in Exo 24 as a devouring fire.

So why does the 'appearance' of the LORD recur in scripture? It happens (using the word 'raah') on numerous occasions, and in Exodus 6:3 God says, 'And l appeared unto Abraham, unto lsaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was l not known to them'.

It's a facinating verse. But still no human form.

In Leviticus 16:2, the LORD instructs Moses about the Day of Atonement saying, 'l will appear (raah) in the cloud upon the mercy seat'.

This is an interesting one. First of all, we know that this isn't a literal "seat", right? It's described in Exodus 25. Most important, we know that a physical form did not literally sit there.

Exodus 25:22

22 And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune ( literally "speak" ) with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.
​

And it's confirmed that Moses didn't see anything in Numbers 7:89

89 And when Moses was gone into the tabernacle of the congregation to speak with him, then he heard the voice of one speaking unto him from off the mercy seat that was upon the ark of testimony, from between the two cherubims: and he spake unto him.
​

And honestly, this so-called mercy-seat is a very strange translation. It appears to come from the greek LXX. But even then, it's strained. See derivation below. I'll put it in a spoiler so people who aren't interested can skip it.

Spoiler: "ιλαστηρίου" is not a literal "mercy-seat"

In greek mercy-seat is "ιλαστηρίου". But my translation has it as atonement-seat. Which makes more sense, because mercy is "έλεος". "ιλαστηρίου" appears to be dervied from "ῑ̔λᾰ́σκομαι" to appease. The stem seems to be "ῑ̔λᾰ́σ".

This can be seen in Genesis 32:20:

And say ye moreover, Behold, thy servant Jacob is behind us. For he said, I will appease ( "εξιλάσομαι" ) him with the present that goeth before me, and afterward I will see his face; peradventure he will accept of me.
​

Also Proverbs 16:4

The wrath of a king is as messengers of death: but a wise man will pacify ( "εξιλάσεται" ) it.
​

The best translation in this context seems to be "atonement" For example Exodus 30:10:

And Aaron shall make an atonement ( "εξιλάσεται" )upon the horns of it once in a year with the blood of the sin offering of atonements ( "εξιλασμού" ): once in the year shall he make atonement upon it throughout your generations: it is most holy unto the LORD.
​

So, it's not really "mercy" it's appeasement or atonement which matches the Hebrew much closer.

Knowing the stem, we can break out the greek word "ιλαστηρίου" into "ιλαστη-ρίου". Other examples of compound greek words with this trailing stem are:

"θυσιαστη-ρίου" An altar. A "sacrifice-place". θῠσῐᾰ́ζω = "to sacrifice". Example Exodus 30:18:

Thou shalt also make a laver of brass, and his foot also of brass, to wash withal: and thou shalt put it between the tabernacle of the congregation and the altar ( "θυσιαστηρίου" ), and thou shalt put water therein.
​

"κριτη-ρίου" A "judging-place". κρῐτήρ "interpretter". κρῑ́νω “I discern, judge”. Example: 1 Kings 7:7

Then he made a porch for the throne where he might judge, even the porch of judgment ( "κριτηρίου" ): and it was covered with cedar from one side of the floor to the other.​

"φυγαδευτη-ρίου" A "fleeing-place". φεύγω "to flee". Example: Numbers 35:25:

And the congregation shall deliver the slayer out of the hand of the revenger of blood, and the congregation shall restore him to the city of his refuge ( "φυγαδευτηρίου" ), whither he was fled: and he shall abide in it unto the death of the high priest, which was anointed with the holy oil.
​

Finally, just to be sure. A literal seat is "δίφρου". The last part looks a little similar, but it seems to maybe come from φέρω “to bear”. Example: 1 Samuel 1:9:

So Hannah rose up after they had eaten in Shiloh, and after they had drunk. Now Eli the priest sat upon a seat ( "δίφρου" ) by a post of the temple of the LORD.
​

So, the cloud is created by God, and is visible to the eye, and God speaks from the cloud but is not visible. Is that correct?

That's what it says in Numbers.

Why is it not acceptable for the LORD to speak through an angel if he is happy to speak through a cloud, or a flame of fire from a burning bush?

Well, it's not for me to judge. All I can say is when we examine those verses, there is a sense of mystery. The form is not described, it's just a voice. Adding a human form simply isn't appropriate if the text doesnt say it that way.

If I had to guess, the LORD taking a human form is Egyptian. Leviticus 18:3. The closest example is Bilaam, right? And since he's not Jewish, and Balak isn't Jewish, the rule is not incumbent on him. The Jewish people have strict rules that, honestly, only apply to them. which is why, imo, in the Hebrew bible, the LORD doesn't take a form. That would be counter to what the law perscribes for us Jews. Perhaps for a Christian it's totally fine.

The angel of the LORD that appeared to Manoah [Judges 13] 'ascended in the flame of the altar'. It was then that they knew that the angel was not a man. 'And Manoah said to his wife, We shall surely die because we have seen God'.

Careful please, you skipped a verse. It wasn't when the angel ascended that Manoah felt he had seen God. It was after time had passed, the angel didn't return, then Manoah goes to his wife and says, "We shall surely die ...". Why is this significant? Because it was the entire episode, and on recollection that Manoah had concluded he had seen God. But besides that:

1. Did Manoah see God? No.
2. Did the LORD speak through the angel? No.
3. What does Manoah's wife say?
   • Manoah: we saw God, we're going to die.
   • Manoah's wife: the LORD doesn't want to kill us, our offering was accepted, we saw something amazing, we heard something amazing.
   • Manoah's wife is not only correcting Manoah on why they're going to live, but she's also correcting him on what type of divine revelation had occured.

 

[dybmh]

And God spoke saying “This is my son - believe him” Some say it was an angel but some said it was thunder

Yes! Thunder! That's where I was heading next.

In Gen 3:8 what did they hear?

ח וַיִּשְׁמְע֞וּ אֶת־ק֨וֹל יְהֹוָ֧ה אֱלֹהִ֛ים מִתְהַלֵּ֥ךְ בַּגָּ֖ן לְר֣וּחַ הַיּ֑וֹם וַיִּתְחַבֵּ֨א הָֽאָדָ֜ם וְאִשְׁתּ֗וֹ מִפְּנֵי֙ יְהֹוָ֣ה אֱלֹהִ֔ים בְּת֖וֹךְ עֵ֥ץ הַגָּֽן

וַיִּשְׁמְע֞וּ - And they heard...
אֶת־ק֨וֹל - this [ voice -or- sound -or- noise -or- thunder ]
​

​

H1980 הָלַךְ halak (haw-lak') v.
to walk.

{in a great variety of applications, literally and figuratively}
[a primitive root., akin to H3212]
KJV: (all) along, apace, behave (self), come, (on) continually, be conversant, depart, + be eased, enter, exercise (self), + follow, forth, forward, get, go (about, abroad, along, away, forward, on, out, up and down), + greater, grow, be wont to haunt, lead, march, X more and more, move (self), needs, on, pass (away), be at the point, quite, run (along), + send, speedily, spread, still, surely, + tale-bearer, + travel(-ler), walk (abroad, on, to and fro, up and down, to places), wander, wax, (way-)faring man, X be weak, whirl.
Compare: H3212

Great! Thank you very kindly. I see in this list:

enter
go
spread
travel

using the Noah Webster's 1828 Dictionary of American English

WALKING, ppr. Wauking. Moving on the legs with a slow pace; moving; conducting ones self.
WALKING, n. Wauking. The act of moving on the feet with a slow pace.

Also, thank you. "Moving" works fine.

PHYICAL MOVEMENT

Sure, flowing and floating is physical movement.

the cool is dependent on the term DAY. for the COOL OF, OF, OF, the DAY and DAY here is physical H3117 יוֹם yowm (yome) n-m.
1. a day (as the warm hours).

Well, the word in the verse is HaYohm, which is "the day", "today", or "that day", etc..

Examples:

Exodus 10:13

וַיֵּט מֹשֶׁה אֶת־מַטֵּהוּ עַל־אֶרֶץ מִצְרַיִם וַֽיהֹוָה נִהַג רֽוּחַ־קָדִים בָּאָרֶץ כָּל־הַיּוֹם הַהוּא וְכָל־הַלָּיְלָה הַבֹּקֶר הָיָה וְרוּחַ הַקָּדִים נָשָׂא אֶת־הָֽאַרְבֶּֽה׃

And Moses stretched out his rod over the land of Egypt, and the Lord brought an east wind upon the land all that day (HaYohm), and all that night; and when it was morning, the east wind brought the locusts.
​

Deuteronomy 1:39

וְטַפְּכֶם אֲשֶׁר אֲמַרְתֶּם לָבַז יִֽהְיֶה וּבְנֵיכֶם אֲשֶׁר לֹא־יָֽדְעוּ הַיּוֹם טוֹב וָרָע הֵמָּה יָבֹאוּ שָׁמָּה וְלָהֶם אֶתְּנֶנָּה וְהֵם יִֽירָשֽׁוּהָ׃

Moreover your little ones, which you said should be a prey, and your children, who in that day (HaYohm) had no knowledge of good and evil, they shall go in there, and to them will I give it, and they shall possess it.
​

1 Kings 13:11

וְנָבִיא אֶחָד זָקֵן יֹשֵׁב בְּבֵֽית־אֵל וַיָּבוֹא בְנוֹ וַיְסַפֶּר־לוֹ אֶת־כָּל־הַמַּֽעֲשֶׂה אֲשֶׁר־עָשָׂה אִישׁ־הָֽאֱלֹהִים הַיּוֹם בְּבֵֽית־אֵל אֶת־הַדְּבָרִים אֲשֶׁר דִּבֶּר אֶל־הַמֶּלֶךְ וַיְסַפְּרוּם לַֽאֲבִיהֶֽם׃

And there lived an old prophet in Beth-El; and his sons came and told him all the works that the man of God had done that day (HaYohm) in Beth-El; the words which he had spoken to the king, them they told also to their father.
​

so in the COOL OF, OF the DAY will have to morning, or Evening, that is opposite of the WARM HOURS of the day.

The word "cool" isn't in the verse. I think we can agree on that. Maybe it's a correct inference. Maybe not.

understand, by using "COOL", and it is the Hebrew word
H7307 רוּחַ ruwach (roo'-ach) n-f.
1. wind.

That's an awfully meager definition provided here. I feel very confident that your sources have much much more than that for H7037.

Simple question. Fast forward in the story, Genesis 6:3. Is it the "wind" that cannot quarrel with man any longer?

--------------------------------

So, where does that leave us with Gen 3:8?

וַֽיִּשְׁמְעוּ אֶת־קוֹל יְהֹוָה אֱלֹהִים מִתְהַלֵּךְ בַּגָּן לְרוּחַ הַיּוֹם וַיִּתְחַבֵּא הָֽאָדָם וְאִשְׁתּוֹ מִפְּנֵי יְהֹוָה אֱלֹהִים בְּתוֹךְ עֵץ הַגָּֽן׃

And they heard this [voice/sound/noise/thunder] of the Lord God [going/moving] in the garden by spirit that day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God among the trees of the garden.
​

Translated this way, there's no human form in the story.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Whoa. I didn't say that. I said Gen 18 is mysterious. I said we don't really know what Abraham saw. I said that other appearances are handled differently. And at the end I made a global statement that the LORD does not have a human form in the Hebrew bible.

A good reason for this is in Exo 33, where the LORD has multiple faces, the word translate as "hand" isn't really a "hand", the word for "back-side" is also ambiguous, and the glory of the LORD which is the subject of this exchange at the end of Exo 33 is "seen" by many in Exo 24 as a devouring fire.

It's a facinating verse. But still no human form.

This is an interesting one. First of all, we know that this isn't a literal "seat", right? It's described in Exodus 25. Most important, we know that a physical form did not literally sit there.

Exodus 25:22

22 And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune ( literally "speak" ) with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.
​

And it's confirmed that Moses didn't see anything in Numbers 7:89

89 And when Moses was gone into the tabernacle of the congregation to speak with him, then he heard the voice of one speaking unto him from off the mercy seat that was upon the ark of testimony, from between the two cherubims: and he spake unto him.
​

And honestly, this so-called mercy-seat is a very strange translation. It appears to come from the greek LXX. But even then, it's strained. See derivation below. I'll put it in a spoiler so people who aren't interested can skip it.

Spoiler: "ιλαστηρίου" is not a literal "mercy-seat"

In greek mercy-seat is "ιλαστηρίου". But my translation has it as atonement-seat. Which makes more sense, because mercy is "έλεος". "ιλαστηρίου" appears to be dervied from "ῑ̔λᾰ́σκομαι" to appease. The stem seems to be "ῑ̔λᾰ́σ".

This can be seen in Genesis 32:20:

And say ye moreover, Behold, thy servant Jacob is behind us. For he said, I will appease ( "εξιλάσομαι" ) him with the present that goeth before me, and afterward I will see his face; peradventure he will accept of me.
​

Also Proverbs 16:4

The wrath of a king is as messengers of death: but a wise man will pacify ( "εξιλάσεται" ) it.
​

The best translation in this context seems to be "atonement" For example Exodus 30:10:

And Aaron shall make an atonement ( "εξιλάσεται" )upon the horns of it once in a year with the blood of the sin offering of atonements ( "εξιλασμού" ): once in the year shall he make atonement upon it throughout your generations: it is most holy unto the LORD.
​

So, it's not really "mercy" it's appeasement or atonement which matches the Hebrew much closer.

Knowing the stem, we can break out the greek word "ιλαστηρίου" into "ιλαστη-ρίου". Other examples of compound greek words with this trailing stem are:

"θυσιαστη-ρίου" An altar. A "sacrifice-place". θῠσῐᾰ́ζω = "to sacrifice". Example Exodus 30:18:

Thou shalt also make a laver of brass, and his foot also of brass, to wash withal: and thou shalt put it between the tabernacle of the congregation and the altar ( "θυσιαστηρίου" ), and thou shalt put water therein.
​

"κριτη-ρίου" A "judging-place". κρῐτήρ "interpretter". κρῑ́νω “I discern, judge”. Example: 1 Kings 7:7

Then he made a porch for the throne where he might judge, even the porch of judgment ( "κριτηρίου" ): and it was covered with cedar from one side of the floor to the other.​

"φυγαδευτη-ρίου" A "fleeing-place". φεύγω "to flee". Example: Numbers 35:25:

And the congregation shall deliver the slayer out of the hand of the revenger of blood, and the congregation shall restore him to the city of his refuge ( "φυγαδευτηρίου" ), whither he was fled: and he shall abide in it unto the death of the high priest, which was anointed with the holy oil.
​

Finally, just to be sure. A literal seat is "δίφρου". The last part looks a little similar, but it seems to maybe come from φέρω “to bear”. Example: 1 Samuel 1:9:

So Hannah rose up after they had eaten in Shiloh, and after they had drunk. Now Eli the priest sat upon a seat ( "δίφρου" ) by a post of the temple of the LORD.
​

That's what it says in Numbers.

Well, it's not for me to judge. All I can say is when we examine those verses, there is a sense of mystery. The form is not described, it's just a voice. Adding a human form simply isn't appropriate if the text doesnt say it that way.

If I had to guess, the LORD taking a human form is Egyptian. Leviticus 18:3. The closest example is Bilaam, right? And since he's not Jewish, and Balak isn't Jewish, the rule is not incumbent on him. The Jewish people have strict rules that, honestly, only apply to them. which is why, imo, in the Hebrew bible, the LORD doesn't take a form. That would be counter to what the law perscribes for us Jews. Perhaps for a Christian it's totally fine.

Careful please, you skipped a verse. It wasn't when the angel ascended that Manoah felt he had seen God. It was after time had passed, the angel didn't return, then Manoah goes to his wife and says, "We shall surely die ...". Why is this significant? Because it was the entire episode, and on recollection that Manoah had concluded he had seen God. But besides that:

1. Did Manoah see God? No.
2. Did the LORD speak through the angel? No.
3. What does Manoah's wife say?
   • Manoah: we saw God, we're going to die.
   • Manoah's wife: the LORD doesn't want to kill us, our offering was accepted, we saw something amazing, we heard something amazing.
   • Manoah's wife is not only correcting Manoah on why they're going to live, but she's also correcting him on what type of divine revelation had occured.

The angels that appeared to Abraham, lsaac, Jacob, Manoah, and others, all appeared in the form of men.

These people were not wrong to have claimed to have seen God 'face to face'. The issue was that they had heard the voice of the LORD, speaking with the authority of God, and had assumed that it was the LORD in his unveiled glory. But, we know that God does not appear in this fashion before men, lest they die. So God appears in a veiled form, and this veil is the Word of God expressed through a form of some kind, most often an angel, appearing as a man.

In the NT, God makes himself a human vessel, and into this vessel, Jesus, he pours out his Spirit at baptism. Such is the manner of God's dwelling on earth amongst men, foreshadowed in the appearances of the 'angel of the LORD' in the Tanakh.

To my understanding, God the Father, as the unveiled glory, does not have an appearance, but for the sake of man, God's 'face' or 'countenance' is made known in 'Christ'. In all the appearances of the LORD, it is always Christ (the Word) that appears.

 

[101G]

GINOLJC, to all

That's an awfully meager definition provided here. I feel very confident that your sources have much much more than that for H7037.

Simple question. Fast forward in the story, Genesis 6:3. Is it the "wind" that cannot quarrel with man any longer?

I just use the first definition in making the point about the COOL of the DAY.
but the complete definition is,
H7307 רוּחַ ruwach (roo'-ach) n-f.
1. wind.
2. (by resemblance) breath, i.e. a sensible (or even violent) exhalation.
3. (figuratively) life, anger, unsubstantiality.
4. (by extension) a region of the sky.
5. (by resemblance) spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions).
[from H7306]
KJV: air, anger, blast, breath, X cool, courage, mind, X quarter, X side, spirit(-ual), tempest, X vain, (whirl-)wind(-y).
Root(s): H7306

if you will notice the term is a NOUN and feminine
as with feminine, it indicates a physical movement. this is why in the Day it was "COOL" by the movement of the "WIND"/ "AIR" as define in the first definition, or as how the KJV can translate. the AHLB has it as
Strong's #7307: AHLB#1445-J (N)
1445) Hr% (Hr% RHh) ac: Travel co: Path ab: ?: The pictograph is a picture of the head of a man, then a picture of wall that separates the inside from the outside. Combined these mean "man outside". The responsibilities of the nomad outside of the tent include the feeding, watering and caring for the livestock. Livestock are healthier and more productive when on a routine, therefore the man follows a routine or "a prescribed path" each day when caring for his livestock. (eng: reek)
.
now, to "Travel", and "Follow a prescribed path" is MOVEMENT, that's why I zero in on the First definition, the NOVEMENT of Wind produce a cool. just as our FANS and AIR CONDITIONERS .... "TODAY", move air to produce a COOL.

101G may not be a Hebrew expert in its language, but 101G can REASON pretty well by God Holy Wisdom.

so, the term COOL of the Day to me is correct. because the MOVEMENT of "AIR", as here in the verse is the "WIND".

just get in your car, and roll down the window, and start moving the wind from the MOVEMENT produce a "COOL" .

can you agree?

101G.

 

[101G]

@dybmh
to follow up on the definition of,
H7307 רוּחַ ruwach (roo'-ach) n-f.
1. wind.
2. (by resemblance) breath, i.e. a sensible (or even violent) exhalation.
3. (figuratively) life, anger, unsubstantiality.
4. (by extension) a region of the sky.
5. (by resemblance) spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions).
[from H7306]
KJV: air, anger, blast, breath, X cool, courage, mind, X quarter, X side, spirit(-ual), tempest, X vain, (whirl-)wind(-y).
Root(s): H7306

in order to hear God voice, a physical movement of AIR/WIND had to be produce. sound travel in waves.

look it up. Sound is a type of energy that travels through the air, or any other medium, as a vibration of pressure waves. The higher the pressure, the higher the sound. The speed of sound depends on the medium. In air, sound travels at about 767 miles per hour.

but NOTICE Something. Sound, however, cannot travel through a vacuum: it always has to have something to travel through (known as a medium), such as air, water, glass, or metal.

also note the ROOT of this word is
H7306 רוּחַ ruwach (roo'-ach) v.
1. (properly) to blow, i.e. breathe.
2. (literally, only) to smell.
3. (by implication) perceive.
4. (figuratively) to anticipate, enjoy.
[a primitive root]
KJV: accept, smell, X touch, make of quick understanding

to blow, is an ACTION verb, and the third definition above here is perceive. as a verbn, in use To feel, notice or detect with one's senses, ANOTHER WORD for it is to "SEE" Physically as well as comprehend something. we say it all the time, do you "see" it now? or understand. but in Adam and Eve case, this was a MOVEMENT Physically hear, and seen.


so the MOVEMENT in the garden was physical in NATURE.

101G.

 

[Soapy]

It's quite correct to believe that no man is God. It says in Numbers 23:19, 'God is not a man, that he should lie'.

However, Jesus Christ is the only mediator between God and men.

1 Timothy 2:5. 'For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ'.

So, Jesus was a man (on earth), but he was also the one mediator between God and men. To mediate he must possess of God the Spirit that enables him to represent God as well as man. And, being the only mediator able to represent both God and man, he stands out as someone unique. In other words, he is no ordinary man.

The realization the Jesus was more than an ordinary man only hit Thomas when he saw the resurrected Jesus. It was then that it became clear that Jesus Christ was, indeed, his Lord and his God. The Lord had become personal to Thomas, as Jesus Christ would to all who receive baptism in the Holy Spirit.

Jesus WILL BE the mediator between Man and God.,. After he is seated in power in the Heaven.

Jesus was not seated in Heaven when the incident with Thomas took place.

• “For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.” (1 Tim 2:5-6)

‘Jesus Christ’, the man who gave his life as a ransom for the sins of mankind (in Adam…) - One man’s sin recompensed for buy one man’s sacrifice!

 

[Soapy]

The angels that appeared to Abraham, lsaac, Jacob, Manoah, and others, all appeared in the form of men.

These people were not wrong to have claimed to have seen God 'face to face'. The issue was that they had heard the voice of the LORD, speaking with the authority of God, and had assumed that it was the LORD in his unveiled glory. But, we know that God does not appear in this fashion before men, lest they die. So God appears in a veiled form, and this veil is the Word of God expressed through a form of some kind, most often an angel, appearing as a man.

In the NT, God makes himself a human vessel, and into this vessel, Jesus, he pours out his Spirit at baptism. Such is the manner of God's dwelling on earth amongst men, foreshadowed in the appearances of the 'angel of the LORD' in the Tanakh.

To my understanding, God the Father, as the unveiled glory, does not have an appearance, but for the sake of man, God's 'face' or 'countenance' is made known in 'Christ'. In all the appearances of the LORD, it is always Christ (the Word) that appears.

Your thoughts and ideas here are confused.

In one sentence you say rightly that God does not appear to mankind since doing so would mean certain death to them.

Then, in another sentence you say God appears to mankind - IN PERSON - but veiled??!!!

No!!!!

GOD SENDS HIS ANGELS TO DO HIS BIDDING!!

God empowers those He sends to do His Will.

That is why Jesus was empowered with the spirit of God… :

• ‘You know what has happened throughout the province of Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached—how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.“ (Acts 10:37-38)

GOD’s POWER is in the person (human or angel):

• ‘Do not defy him as my name is in him’

For the Angel of the LORD:
‘name’ means ‘power’! I have empowered him to do my Will so if you object to what he is telling, showing, commanding you, then it is really ME, YHWH, your God, whom you are defying!!’.

For the Spirit of God:
‘Ananias, you lied to the spirit of God, therefore you are [ in reality] lying to Almighty God’

For the Angel of the LORD:
“The angel of the LORD asked [Balaam], “Why have you beaten your donkey these three times? I have come here to oppose you because your path is a reckless one before me.” (Numbers 22:32)

Notice that the Angel of the LORD is speaking the words of the Almighty God. The Angel was EMPOWERED to oppose Balaam in his disastrous quest against God. So when the angel says that Balaam’s was ‘reckless before me’, it was really meant as ‘Reckless before YHWH God’.

In none of the three scenarios above are any entity to be claimed as being ALMIGHTY GOD.

 

[dybmh]

1) You haven't refuted any of the points I made.
2) You haven't disputed any of the scripture I brought.
3) The conclusion I have drawn is 100% consistent with the written text.

The angels that appeared to Abraham, lsaac, Jacob, Manoah, and others, all appeared in the form of men.

Angel's are not the LORD.

These people were not wrong to have claimed to have seen God 'face to face'.

This is misquoting scripture. There are only 2 examples of people who *maybe* claimed to see God face-to-face. That's Jacob and Manoah. Abraham? No. Isaac? No. All the others? Are you writing your own scripture?

The issue was that they had heard the voice of the LORD, speaking with the authority of God, and had assumed that it was the LORD in his unveiled glory.

A false assumption.

But, we know that God does not appear in this fashion before men, lest they die. So God appears in a veiled form, and this veil is the Word of God expressed through a form of some kind, most often an angel, appearing as a man.

Hmmmm, "most often" appearing as a man? I don't think that's true. We'd need to go through the entire Tanach to prove it though. Let's see... I wonder how I can do this?

From my count, at least in the first five books, the strongest revelation, there are 12 instances where an angel or the LORD takes any form at all. Any possible form... 12 times. Of those 12 times, how many are humanoid? 6. And that's an extremely optimistic count. I'm including the verses that imply Angel, God, or the LORD, stood, walked, or spoke face-to-face eventhough I dispute the way those are understood literally. There are 59 total divine revelations, combining them whenever possible.

Most optimistic count, 12/59. Actual possible occurences of the LORD appearing as a man? 6/59. That's not even close to "most often appearing as a man". The derivation of this count is below in a spoiler.

Spoiler: Appearances as a "man"

Genesis 1-2 - God "speaks" creation, the LORD speaks to Adam.

Genesis 3 - the LORD speaks and "walks"

Genesis 4-11 The Lord communicates with a voice and an appearance, but not a human form.

Genesis 16 - an angel ( literally messenger ) speaks to Hagar. No form of man.

Genesis 17 - The Lord appeared and spoke, no form of man.

Genesis 18 - It's mysterious. Could be angels / could be prophets

Genesis 19 - Angels in the form of men

Genesis 20 - God appears in a dream and speaks to Avimelech. No form of man

Genesis 21 - the LORD vistis Sarah, no form is described, it's mysterious

Genesis 22 - God speaks to Abraham. No form

Genesis 25 - God blesses Isaac / the LORD speaks to Rebecca. No form.

Genesis 26 - the LORD appears to Isaac and speaks. No form.

Genesis 28 - in Jacob's dream angels were ascending and descending and above him the LORD "stood".

Genesis 31 - the LORD speaks to Jacob. No form. And angel speaks to Jacob in a dream. God comes to laban and speaks in a dream.

Genesis 32 - Jacob wrestles with a 'man', at the end names the place "face/presence of God" becase he saw God face-to-face

Genesis 39 - the LORD was with Joseph. No form.

Exodus 3-4 - angel appears as fire to Moses, the LORD speaks to Moses. No human form

Exodus 6-14 - the LORD speaks to Moses and Aaron. No form.

Exodus 16-17 - the LORD speaks to Moses. No form.

Exodus 19 - The Lord calls to Moses and speaks. No form.

Exodus 20 - The LORD speaks to the entire nation. No form.

Exodus 24 - the LORD speaks, the glory of the LORD is seen as a devouring fire above the clouds

Exodus 25 - the LORD speaks to Moses

Exodus 30-31 - the LORD speaks to Moses

Exodus 32 - the LORD speaks to Moses

Exodus 33 - the LORD speaks to Moses as a friend "face-to-face"

Exodus 34 - the LORD speaks, writes, descends in a cloud, and passes before Moses

Exodus 40 - the LORD spoke to Moses

Leviticus 1 - the LORD called and spoke to Moses

Leviticus 4 - the LORD spoke to Moses

Leviticus 6-8 - the LORD spoke to Moses

Leviticus 10 - a fire from the LORD devours Nadav and Avihu

Leviticus 11 - the LORD speaks to Moses and Aaron

Leviticus 12 - the LORD speaks to Moses

Leviticus 13 - the LORD speaks to Moses and Aaron

Leviticus 14 - the LORD speaks to Moses

Leviticus 15 - the LORD speaks to Moses and Aaron

Leviticus 16-25 - the LORD speaks to Moses

Leviticus 27 - the LORD speaks to Moses

Numbers 1 - the LORD speaks to Moses

Numbers 2 - the LORD speaks to Moses and Aaron

Numbers 3 - the LORD speaks to Moses

Numbers 4 - the LORD speaks to Moses and Aaron

Numbers 5-6 - the LORD speaks to Moses

Numbers 8-11 - the LORD speaks to Moses

Numbers 12 - the LORD comes down in a pillar of cloud and speaks to Moses and Aaron and Miriam. Important note: if there is a prophet among you, the LORD will appear in a vision or in a dream. When the LORD speaks to moses it is "mouth-to-mouth"

Numbers 13 - the LORD speaks to Moses

Numbers 14 - the LORD spoke to Moses and Aaron

Numbers 15 - the LORD speaks to Moses

Numbers 16 - the LORD speaks to Moses and Aaron

Numbers 17 - the LORD speaks to Moses

Numbers 18-20 - the LORD speaks to Aaron and Moses

Numbers 21 - the LORD speaks to Moses

Numbers 22-23 - God came to Bilaam at night and "stood", and angel "stood" in the way of the donkey. God speaks to Bilaam, God's words are in the donkey's mouth, the angel speaks to Bilaam, God puts a "word" in Bilaam's mouth.

Numbers 26-28 - the LORD speaks to Moses

Numbers 31-32 - the LORD speaks to Moses

Numbers 34-35 - the LORD speaks to Moses

Deuteronomy 23 - the LORD "walks"

Deuteronomy 34 - the LORD speaks to Moses

In the NT, God makes himself a human vessel, and into this vessel, Jesus, he pours out his Spirit at baptism. Such is the manner of God's dwelling on earth amongst men, foreshadowed in the appearances of the 'angel of the LORD' in the Tanakh.

1) God making himself a vessel is in the Book of John. Where else is it?
2) Here are the episodes where the angel of the LORD is mentioned:

• Genesis 16 - speaks to Hagar. No human form.
• Genesis 22 - speaks to Abraham at the binding of Isaac. No human form.
• Exodus 3 - the buring bush. appears as a flame. No human form.
• Numbers 22 - stands in the way of Bilaam's donkey and speaks to Bilaam. That's one I included in my count of 6/59.
• Judges 2 - speaks to Joshua, no human form
• Judges 5 - issues a curse, no human form
• Judges 6 - the angel of the LORD "sits". Gideon says he saw an angel "face-to-face". That counts. 7.
• Judges 13 - the episode with manoah and his wife. That counts. 8.
• 2 Samuel 24 - the angel is a pestilence, God says to stay its "hand". I vote no on this one.
• 1 Kings 19 - the angel "touched" him. That's a no.
• 2 Kings 1 - the angel speaks to Elijah
• 2 Kings 19 - the angel of the LORD strikes the Assyrian camp and kills
• Isaiah 37 - refers back to the story of the Assyrian camp above
• Zechariah 1 - the angel "stood" and "walked". That counts. 9.
• Zechariah 3 - the angel is present in a vision, but no form is described
• Zechariah 12 - the angel is mentioned, but isn't actually there
• Psalms 34 - the angel "encamps"
• Psalms 35 - the angel chases and pursues
• 1 Chronicles 21 - the angel is a destroyer, standing between heaven and earth with a sword. That counts. 10.

OK, so going through the Tanach, there are 10 episodes where an Angel, God, or the LORD maybe, kinda, sorta, has a human aspect. 10.

How many times does the LORD speak? more than 676 times.

To my understanding, God the Father, as the unveiled glory, does not have an appearance, but for the sake of man, God's 'face' or 'countenance' is made known in 'Christ'. In all the appearances of the LORD, it is always Christ (the Word) that appears.

And that is a human approaching a divine concept. As long as an individual recognizes it's a limited earthy attempt, then maybe it's useful.

 

[dybmh]

@101G,

It seems that you're making a case for Gen 3 to be an episode that happened in the material world. I'm not debating that. My personal belief is that it didn't. But that's not something I'm prepared to debate right now. The issue is a human form.

And regarding H7307, it's odd to me that strong's has the same word, with the same meaning listed twice, H7307 and H7308. But anyway.

I certainly agree that rolling down the car windows is a nice way to cool off.

Do you agree that "wind" makes absolutely no sense in Genesis 6:3?

And the LORD said, My ruach ("wind") shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

And the LORD said, My ruach ("spirit") shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. ​

 

[101G]

The issue is a human form.

not a human Form, but a GODLY one. who or what do you think man is? the IMAGE, the Figure, the Form of God, did not God made "GOOD", or was man a MISTAKE?
man is the IMAGE of the TRUE MAN, GOD. just as the Angels are refered to as man also. he make them "spirits", but they are referred to as a man. supportive scripture, Daniel 9:21 "Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation."

remember, by being glorified in the RESURRECTED Body God has a body, ot temple, or tabernacle to dwell in.

Do you agree that "wind" makes absolutely no sense in Genesis 6:3?

no, not realy when used in the context of the verse. I can see why the term was used.

And the LORD said, My ruach ("wind") shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

I see your mistake, Listen to the definition.
H7307 רוּחַ ruwach (roo'-ach) n-f.
1. wind.
2. (by resemblance) breath, i.e. a sensible (or even violent) exhalation.
3. (figuratively) life, anger, unsubstantiality.
4. (by extension) a region of the sky.
5. (by resemblance) spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions).
[from H7306]
KJV: air, anger, blast, breath, X cool, courage, mind, X quarter, X side, spirit(-ual), tempest, X vain, (whirl-)wind(-y).
Root(s): H7306

this is the spirit that he the FATHER of spirits give to us , listen, Isaiah 42:5 "Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:"
notice definition #5 above. see it's HIS "spirit" that he gives MAN, and NOT "he himself", which is "Spirit".
and BREATH is
H5397 נְשָׁמָה nshamah (nesh-aw-maw') n-f.
1. a puff.
2. (by extensions) a wind.
3. an angry or vital breath.
4. divine inspiration.
5. intellect.
6. (concretely) an animal.
[from H5395]
KJV: blast, (that) breath(-eth), inspiration, soul, spirit.
Root(s): H5395

spirit to, to, to, them and NOT "IN" them.

so it depends upon the context as to how it is used.

101G.