Is it possible to see God's 'face'?

[Truthseeker]

I think you're right to use the phrase 'seeming contradictions' because there are a number of possible explanations for why both passages may be true.

Moses spake with God 'face to face', but he appears not to have seen God's face. This may indicate that Moses communicated directly with God and saw a figure, whilst, at the same time, not being allowed to see God's face (Christ) in all its (his) glory.

That seems to be the case. Speaking face to face is figurative, it tells the truth that Moses had a direct relationship with God. The other is literal. No one can see God's essence and live. Though I would go further and say no one can see God, period. That last is directly derived from the Baha'i Writings.

 

[Truthseeker]

As l see it, there are details in the story of Abraham that take it out of the realm of fiction. For instance, Abraham had a family tree that connects to figures of history. In Genesis 11:26 it says, 'And Terah lived seventy years, and begat Abram, Nahor, and Haran'.

Then we are also told where Abraham came from (Ur of the Chaldees), and where he was headed (Canaan). We also know he stopped at Haran (situated in Turkey), having travelled up beside the Euphrates river from 'the Chaldees'.

By the time we reach the story of Genesis 18, in the plains of Mamre, we already know much about Abraham, his household, and his relationship with neighbouring people. In Genesis 21, lsaac is born to Sarah, and we are told Abraham was, at that time, one hundred years old (verse 5).

We are also told about Abraham's dealings with Abimelech, and the well that Abraham dug at Beersheba, which, apparently, still exists to this day.

According to the scripture, Sarah died aged 137, and was buried in Machpelah, near Mamre. Abraham, when he reached 175 years of age was buried in the same cave by his sons, Isaac and lshmael [Genesis 25:9].

Abraham's story is set within genuine history (mentioning Chaldeans, Canaanites, Hittites, Amorites, Jebusites, Egyptians etc)

We also find Abraham mentioned elsewhere in scripture, and the references are not to a fictional character. He is mentioned in Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua, 1 Kings, 2 Kings, 1 Chronicles, 2 Chronicles, Nehemiah, Psalms, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Micah, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts, Romans, 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Hebrews, James, and 1 Peter.

The story of Abraham is, to me, a believable account. But, l acknowledge that, without a belief in God, it is hard to accept testimony of supernatural events.

Then again, the idea that the universe could have come from nothing rather than from God is, IMO, untenable. And so, as an initial premise, the miracles of God become acceptable. Why should they not continue to appear when God is involved?

Yes, there are genuine details there, but that has no bearing on how accurate that specific story was, in my opinion. That detail of Abraham living to 175 years old I consdier outside of the realm of possibiltiy. Interestingly, the number of years these people in Genesis lived went down over time, as if the closer they got to the time this was written down, the less fantastic and more likely it was.

 

[Soapy]

No, not God who Jesus also referred to as Father in the same scripture John 1:18.
Some Churches call Him Father God others called him God the Father.

There are scripture from Adam and Eve and God walking in the garden together, to Cain, Abel, Enoch, Methuselah, Noah, as well as those you've mentioned and various other prophets seeing and speaking to God.

Who is actually referred to as El / Elohim / Yahweh in the Old Testaments? Was it God the Father whom Jesus said no man has seen? Or what's it the one named Yeshua / Jesus while he walked upon the Earth in a flesh body, whom Isaiah gives all titles to. Jesus said before Abraham was I Am ... Thomas said to Jesus before his ascension my Lord and my God ... The Sadducees and Pharisees wanted to Stone him, accused him of blasphemy making himself equal to God. John 1: 1-14 identifies Jesus as God our creator.

Jesus also said God is a Spirit and must be worshiped in spirit and in truth. That scripture seems to indicate God the Father has no physical form or at least no visible form to the human eye. When one considers God opened the eyes of the people that the angels surrounding them could be seen or when Balaam didn't see the angel but the mule did.

Jesus is God of the Old Testament and made himself visible to man and mankind.




form
Jesus said all things have been given unto me in heaven and in Earth.

Jesus also said God is a Spirit and must be worshiped in spirit and in truth. That scripture seems to indicate God the Father has no physical form or at least no visible form to the human eye.

Jesus did indeed say that God is Spirit, etc.

Jesus also told Thomas that:

• “See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.” (Luke 24:39)

No one of mankind has ever been shown to touch a Spirit, and Jesus, here emphasises this point to Thomas and the other ten disciples that he was a human being like them. And you are therefore fully correct that almighty God does not have flesh and bone.

But another point: The term for God is ‘Father God’, and ‘God, the Father’. Notice the comma in ‘God, the Father’.

It is Trinitarians who neglect the comma in order to try to justify also ‘God the son’, and God the spirit of the Father’. In fact, they also do themselves a disservice since they are (happily for truth seekers) inadvertently claiming the Son as a God, and the Father as a God, and the spirit of the Father, as a God… three Gods … yet, they claim, these three are but one God!!

Also, ‘Father God’ actually is not a scripture term. Search the scriptures to see the truth. Scripture says of the Father:

• “one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.” (Eph 4:6)

‘One God and Father of all’.

• “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort,” (2 Cor 1:3)

‘The God and Father of Jesus Christ…’ How is it said then by Trinitarians that Jesus IS GOD when scriptures shows that (obviously Spiritually) Jesus has a God who IS ALMIGHTY GOD.

Would you say that the word ‘God’ could mean, “Mighty One”?

Then the “Mighty ONE”, deity of the Jews is ‘The Father’. If you are pressed, then Jesus could be called, ‘mighty one’ - but mighty one of MANKIND, but Jesus rightly never claims such a title for himself.
But notice that The Father calls men of glory who received His word, ‘Gods’ - ‘mighty ones’ in God.

 

[Soapy]

That seems to be the case. Speaking face to face is figurative, it tells the truth that Moses had a direct relationship with God. The other is literal. No one can see God's essence and live. Though I would go further and say no one can see God, period. That last is directly derived from the Baha'i Writings.

I would agree (I don’t know about the Baha’i aspect)
Also, God ‘walking in the garden’ would be like thunder in the sky just as with the Jews in the wilderness where the Jews ‘blocked their ears’ from the sound and pleaded with Moses to speak for God instead of them hearing God directly.
God is SPIRIT. Spirit has no form but it can mimic as we see from scriptures people encountering angel spirits who mimic a male human dressed in pure white garments (signifying pure sinlessness!). But of those who insist on claiming that people saw God face to face …. Are they calling Jesus Christ a liar since Jesus stated quite emphatically that no one has ever seen GOD ‘AT ANY TIME’… and also, John also says that Jesus, the only human Son of God HAS REVEALED HIM. Revealing the TESTAMENT about GOD that GOD gave Jesus to give to the people…

 

[Soapy]

Yes, there are genuine details there, but that has no bearing on how accurate that specific story was, in my opinion. That detail of Abraham living to 175 years old I consdier outside of the realm of possibiltiy. Interestingly, the number of years these people in Genesis lived went down over time, as if the closer they got to the time this was written down, the less fantastic and more likely it was.

I think no one should take numbers in scriptures as EXACT values in reality. If there is a reason for the SPECIFIC number used, for living age, then that is far outside the ability of anyone in ReligiousForum to detail.

I mean, like, was it EXACTLY 40 days that Noah was in the ark? Was it exactly 40 years the Israelites were in the wilderness? Was it exactly 40 days Jesus as in the wilderness? Was it exactly … anything. Perhaps numbers are just specifiers of ‘a period of time according to the theme’: ‘a long time’. We, today, might say, ‘Just a sec!’, ‘In a moment’, ‘a year or so ago’.

 

[Soapy]

In the story of the three 'men' who appeared to Abraham at Mamre [Genesis 18], it's recorded that Abraham saw the men and ran from his tent to meet them. To one, he bowed and said, My Lord. He then fetched food and, while he stood by, 'they did eat'.

Later, two of the men (angels) went on to Sodom. The Lord remained behind and communed with Abraham.

Can this all be happening in Abraham's mind and spirit, or is there a physical manifestation of the LORD present?

It seems mighty odd that Abraham should prepare food and watch the three men/angels eat. He even asks his wife to bake cakes of meal on the hearth.
If Abraham was seeing things 'in the spirit', then the reaction of his wife and the eating of the food seems out of place. Let's not forget that Sarah heard the words of the Lord, saying, 'Sarah thy wife shall have a son'.

How do you explain these things, given that the central figure of the three angels is described as the LORD?

God SPOKE in those times to mankind through his angels (Ministers in spirit) … So the man who stayed with Abraham was an angel (whether an actual human person or a spirit in human form - I suggest the former since they were HUNGRY and ATE FOOD) speaking the words from God.

Just in case you don’t know - and I hope you do know - ‘angel’ is just a word for ‘Messenger .. more likely From God’. Such s messenger (‘Angel’) can be HUMAN or Spirit. I was writing a piece (shown earlier) about Jesus telling Thomas that he, Jesus, WAS NOT A SPIRIT. If he was not Spirit then he was man… done deal! But it was going to say that no one of mankind had ever touched an angel - a Spirit… but then I remembered that the two angels you spoke of going down into Sodom to talk with Lot, took Lot and his family ‘by their hand and led them out of the city’. So, these men were HUMAN ANGELS sent by God. These were endowed with holy power through the spirit of God so, in the case of Lot, the two men fended off the crowd who wanted to rape them by making them blind.

 

[Redemptionsong]

God SPOKE in those times to mankind through his angels (Ministers in spirit) … So the man who stayed with Abraham was an angel (whether an actual human person or a spirit in human form - I suggest the former since they were HUNGRY and ATE FOOD) speaking the words from God.

Just in case you don’t know - and I hope you do know - ‘angel’ is just a word for ‘Messenger .. more likely From God’. Such s messenger (‘Angel’) can be HUMAN or Spirit. I was writing a piece (shown earlier) about Jesus telling Thomas that he, Jesus, WAS NOT A SPIRIT. If he was not Spirit then he was man… done deal! But it was going to say that no one of mankind had ever touched an angel - a Spirit… but then I remembered that the two angels you spoke of going down into Sodom to talk with Lot, took Lot and his family ‘by their hand and led them out of the city’. So, these men were HUMAN ANGELS sent by God. These were endowed with holy power through the spirit of God so, in the case of Lot, the two men fended off the crowd who wanted to rape them by making them blind.

Okay, but now we need to make a clear distinction between the angel (messenger) that speaks God's words and is called 'the LORD' [see Genesis 18:1 and 18:33], and the angel that speaks God's words and is not called 'the LORD'.

Take Gabriel, for example. He delivered messages from God, but never claimed to be 'the LORD'.

Then we have 1 Corinthians 10:4 that states, unequivocally, that the spiritual Rock that followed the lsraelites in the wilderness was Christ. So, 'in those times', before the birth of Jesus, Christ was in existence manifesting himself amongst the lsraelites.

 

[Truthseeker]

I think no one should take numbers in scriptures as EXACT values in reality. If there is a reason for the SPECIFIC number used, for living age, then that is far outside the ability of anyone in ReligiousForum to detail.

I mean, like, was it EXACTLY 40 days that Noah was in the ark? Was it exactly 40 years the Israelites were in the wilderness? Was it exactly 40 days Jesus as in the wilderness? Was it exactly … anything. Perhaps numbers are just specifiers of ‘a period of time according to the theme’: ‘a long time’. We, today, might say, ‘Just a sec!’, ‘In a moment’, ‘a year or so ago’.

I agree that I can't know why 175 years was specified. I was just speculating. The 40 years and days you are talking about may be number signifying something symbolic perhaps, but I don't know. The repeated use of that number seems to unify together those separate events in some way. Baha'u'llah's ministry lasted approximately 40 years, though not exact. I believe there may be a connection there.

 

[Soapy]

Okay, but now we need to make a clear distinction between the angel (messenger) that speaks God's words and is called 'the LORD' [see Genesis 18:1 and 18:33], and the angel that speaks God's words and is not called 'the LORD'.

Take Gabriel, for example. He delivered messages from God, but never claimed to be 'the LORD'.

Then we have 1 Corinthians 10:4 that states, unequivocally, that the spiritual Rock that followed the lsraelites in the wilderness was Christ. So, 'in those times', before the birth of Jesus, Christ was in existence manifesting himself amongst the lsraelites.

What are you talking about? Angels of God only ever speak the words God gives them to speak. Angels do not have autonomy to go about doing or saying what they like when they like - they are INSTRUCTED and SENT by God to do his bidding…

Yes, WITHIN the scope of what God sends them to do they are free to MAKE SURE they RIGHTEOUSLY achieve what God sends them to do, like the two angels taking Lot to the mountain instead of the city God told them to take them to. And the Angel sent to turn Balaam back from his unrighteous quest - he turned to using dramatic flaming sword to turn Balaam back after Balaam tried to defy the command of the angel - the command OF GOD (tuh! Please don’t say I’m saying that that makes the angel GOD Himself like Trinitarians say the spirit of God with Ananias was God Himself.)

An angel can say to Moses, “Take off your shoe - for the place you stand is holy ground”. This is the angel speaking what God told him to tell Moses. Angels are activators and mouthpiece for God in the physical world.

And ‘LORD’.., GOD is ‘LORD’ - ‘YHWH’, His NAME. What any angel says or scripture claims of an angel concerning ‘LORD’, is FROM GOD… not the angel.

I can’t understand why you are asking such an obvious question unless you are trying to angle for some debauched nonsense!

And, the spiritual rock… Oh boy! You cannot be serious…!?

No one… but no one has ever questioned the fact that if means ‘The spiritual rock was their salvation’… in that it gave out water when Moses hit it with his staff (wrongly.., since God told him to SPEAK to the rock… God was displeased with him for that!)

Please, please, do not test me with petty nonsense like that!!!

But if you fancy a challenge… Doesn’t the name, ‘Peter’ / ‘Cephas’, mean ‘Rock’?

So it was PETER the apostle who was CHRIST!

Brilliant!!

And, of course, the Disciples are also God since they were WITH JESUS (WHO WAS WITH GOD) in the beginning:

• “And you [the Disciples] also must testify, for you have been with me from the beginning.” (John 15:27)

Please… don’t do that with me… thanks!

 

[Redemptionsong]

What are you talking about? Angels of God only ever speak the words God gives them to speak. Angels do not have autonomy to go about doing or saying what they like when they like - they are INSTRUCTED and SENT by God to do his bidding…

Yes, WITHIN the scope of what God sends them to do they are free to MAKE SURE they RIGHTEOUSLY achieve what God sends them to do, like the two angels taking Lot to the mountain instead of the city God told them to take them to. And the Angel sent to turn Balaam back from his unrighteous quest - he turned to using dramatic flaming sword to turn Balaam back after Balaam tried to defy the command of the angel - the command OF GOD (tuh! Please don’t say I’m saying that that makes the angel GOD Himself like Trinitarians say the spirit of God with Ananias was God Himself.)

An angel can say to Moses, “Take off your shoe - for the place you stand is holy ground”. This is the angel speaking what God told him to tell Moses. Angels are activators and mouthpiece for God in the physical world.

And ‘LORD’.., GOD is ‘LORD’ - ‘YHWH’, His NAME. What any angel says or scripture claims of an angel concerning ‘LORD’, is FROM GOD… not the angel.

I can’t understand why you are asking such an obvious question unless you are trying to angle for some debauched nonsense!

And, the spiritual rock… Oh boy! You cannot be serious…!?

No one… but no one has ever questioned the fact that if means ‘The spiritual rock was their salvation’… in that it gave out water when Moses hit it with his staff (wrongly.., since God told him to SPEAK to the rock… God was displeased with him for that!)

Please, please, do not test me with petty nonsense like that!!!

But if you fancy a challenge… Doesn’t the name, ‘Peter’ / ‘Cephas’, mean ‘Rock’?

So it was PETER the apostle who was CHRIST!

Brilliant!!

And, of course, the Disciples are also God since they were WITH JESUS (WHO WAS WITH GOD) in the beginning:

• “And you [the Disciples] also must testify, for you have been with me from the beginning.” (John 15:27)

Please… don’t do that with me… thanks!

You're having to go to great lengths to twist the scriptures to fit your own interpretation.

Angels under authority are not referred to as 'the LORD'. The 'angel of the LORD' was clearly different from other angels. The central angel of Genesis 18 also negotiates with Abraham, whilst the other two angels do his bidding in Sodom! This, even allowing angels some autonomy, demonstrates that this particular angel had authority over life and death. Clearly, this does not fit your brief of an angel's mission.

Then you try to twist the meaning of 1 Corinthians 10:4! This is not about Moses striking the rock in Horeb, but about God the Rock (it has nothing to do with Peter, either) [Deuteronomy 32:4]. And the reference here is to Christ being the Rock that provided the lsraelites their spiritual food and drink.

 

[Soapy]

You're having to go to great lengths to twist the scriptures to fit your own interpretation.

Angels under authority are not referred to as 'the LORD'. The 'angel of the LORD' was clearly different from other angels. The central angel of Genesis 18 also negotiates with Abraham, whilst the other two angels do his bidding in Sodom! This, even allowing angels some autonomy, demonstrates that this particular angel had authority over life and death. Clearly, this does not fit your brief of an angel's mission.

Then you try to twist the meaning of 1 Corinthians 10:4! This is not about Moses striking the rock in Horeb, but about God the Rock (it has nothing to do with Peter, either) [Deuteronomy 32:4]. And the reference here is to Christ being the Rock that provided the lsraelites their spiritual food and drink.

You talk about twisting scriptures…. And twisting what I said…

I never said any angel is called, ‘LORD’. I identified ‘LORD’ as being the substituted word ‘YHWH’, actually, the name ONLY GOD OF THE HEBREWS gave himself in speaking to Moses.

I said that it was YHWH dictating his words by way of the angel. There is no doubt there are lead angels. There is Gabriel, and there is Michael, at least, but knowing the names of angels is dangerous in that they may become figures of worship - which is not allowed by God. We do not know the name of the Angel who stayed with Abraham but you say ‘he’ was the lead angel… but you say this lead angel was Jesus Christ… where do you get that from?

You know yourself that scriptures says:

• “To which of the angels did God ever say, ‘You are my Son…!’”

Are you s Jehovah’s Witness? JW are the only sect that I know who claim that Jesus was an Angel before becoming man… utter nonsense!!

 

[Redemptionsong]

You talk about twisting scriptures…. And twisting what I said…

I never said any angel is called, ‘LORD’. I identified ‘LORD’ as being the substituted word ‘YHWH’, actually, the name ONLY GOD OF THE HEBREWS gave himself in speaking to Moses.

I said that it was YHWH dictating his words by way of the angel. There is no doubt there are lead angels. There is Gabriel, and there is Michael, at least, but knowing the names of angels is dangerous in that they may become figures of worship - which is not allowed by God. We do not know the name of the Angel who stayed with Abraham but you say ‘he’ was the lead angel… but you say this lead angel was Jesus Christ… where do you get that from?

You know yourself that scriptures says:

• “To which of the angels did God ever say, ‘You are my Son…!’”

Are you s Jehovah’s Witness? JW are the only sect that I know who claim that Jesus was an Angel before becoming man… utter nonsense!!

1 Corinthians 10:4 does not say 'Jesus Christ', it says 'Christ'. The name Jesus is not applied until the baby of Mary is born. He was the Son of God because Mary was overshadowed by the Holy Spirit (God), and conceived as a result.

Confirmation is given by the Father, who says, 'This is my beloved Son, in whom l am well pleased' [Matthew 3:17]

This means that Christ, the Word of God, was present in angelic form in the OT. He appears to a number of different people as 'the angel of the LORD'.

As a trinitarian, I would say that your position is closer to JW teaching than mine! I accept that the full measure of the Father's Spirit was upon the Son (Jesus Christ), which allows for worship. This is a position that you do not accept, and nor do Jehovah's Witnesses.

There is also the issue of the Holy Spirit being poured out on the Church, the body of Christ. Scripture teaches that the Holy Spirit is the Father's Spirit, and it divides 'severally as he will' within the body. Without the baptism in the Holy Spirit l don't believe a person can be 'born again' into the kingdom of God.

Do you agree that a person must be 'born again' of the Holy Spirit? Have you received this baptism promised by Christ?

 

[Soapy]

1 Corinthians 10:4 does not say 'Jesus Christ', it says 'Christ'. The name Jesus is not applied until the baby of Mary is born. He was the Son of God because Mary was overshadowed by the Holy Spirit (God), and conceived as a result.

Confirmation is given by the Father, who says, 'This is my beloved Son, in whom l am well pleased' [Matthew 3:17]

This means that Christ, the Word of God, was present in angelic form in the OT. He appears to a number of different people as 'the angel of the LORD'.

As a trinitarian, I would say that your position is closer to JW teaching than mine! I accept that the full measure of the Father's Spirit was upon the Son (Jesus Christ), which allows for worship. This is a position that you do not accept, and nor do Jehovah's Witnesses.

There is also the issue of the Holy Spirit being poured out on the Church, the body of Christ. Scripture teaches that the Holy Spirit is the Father's Spirit, and it divides 'severally as he will' within the body. Without the baptism in the Holy Spirit l don't believe a person can be 'born again' into the kingdom of God.

Do you agree that a person must be 'born again' of the Holy Spirit? Have you received this baptism promised by Christ?

I do believe that a person must be reborn in the spirit of God. That’s what scriptures says Jesus says and is obvious from other scripture verses.

My contention is that you claim Jesus was the angel of the LORD. Gabriel states that he stands in the presence of God:

• “The angel said to him, “I am Gabriel. I stand in the presence of God, and I have been sent to speak to you and to tell you this good news.” (Luke 1:19)

No other holy angel claims this closeness to God. I’m not sticking my neck out to say the angel you speak of exactly was Gabriel but it would seem likely - BUT we would be staying into the dangerous territory I spoke of in glorifying an angel…!

I think it is enough to just take it on the chin and move on instead of dwelling on the actions of angels … who you have already started calling ‘Your Lord and God’…

Wow… think about what you are doing!

 

[Redemptionsong]

I do believe that a person must be reborn in the spirit of God. That’s what scriptures says Jesus says and is obvious from other scripture verses.

My contention is that you claim Jesus was the angel of the LORD. Gabriel states that he stands in the presence of God:

• “The angel said to him, “I am Gabriel. I stand in the presence of God, and I have been sent to speak to you and to tell you this good news.” (Luke 1:19)

No other holy angel claims this closeness to God. I’m not sticking my neck out to say the angel you speak of exactly was Gabriel but it would seem likely - BUT we would be staying into the dangerous territory I spoke of in glorifying an angel…!

I think it is enough to just take it on the chin and move on instead of dwelling on the actions of angels … who you have already started calling ‘Your Lord and God’…

Wow… think about what you are doing!

I would not be the first to recognize the presence of God in an angel of the Lord.

Judges 13:13-23. Manoah and his wife entertained an angel whose name was 'wonderful' ('secret'). Of this angel, Manoah said, 'We shall surely die, because we have seen God'.

Neither Manoah nor his wife died because what they saw was not the LORD in spiritual glory but an angel of the LORD, God's presence in a spiritual form.

What is also interesting about this story is that Manoah 'took a kid with a meat offering', made an offering to the LORD, and the angel 'ascended in the flame of the altar'. At this point, Manoah and his wife, 'fell on their faces to the ground'.

You may consider it presumptuous of me, but l see the crucifixion and ascension in these words. 'Wonderful' is the name given to the LORD in lsaiah 9:6, and the angel that ascends in the flame is from the LORD, just as Jesus Christ is from the LORD. Yet, being the image of God, Christ 'veils' the Spirit of God, which a man cannot look upon, and live.

Christ was most definitely present with the lsraelites in the wilderness [1 Corinthians 10:4], and this suggests that God always descends to earth in a form of some description. These various temporary forms were taken by God, but only once did God choose to come in the form of 'flesh and blood'. This was a 'once for all time' incarnation, and will never be repeated, although we know that Christ Jesus will return in glory, in a immortal, spiritual, body.

 

[Soapy]

I would not be the first to recognize the presence of God in an angel of the Lord.

Judges 13:13-23. Manoah and his wife entertained an angel whose name was 'wonderful' ('secret'). Of this angel, Manoah said, 'We shall surely die, because we have seen God'.

Neither Manoah nor his wife died because what they saw was not the LORD in spiritual glory but an angel of the LORD, God's presence in a spiritual form.

What is also interesting about this story is that Manoah 'took a kid with a meat offering', made an offering to the LORD, and the angel 'ascended in the flame of the altar'. At this point, Manoah and his wife, 'fell on their faces to the ground'.

You may consider it presumptuous of me, but l see the crucifixion and ascension in these words. 'Wonderful' is the name given to the LORD in lsaiah 9:6, and the angel that ascends in the flame is from the LORD, just as Jesus Christ is from the LORD. Yet, being the image of God, Christ 'veils' the Spirit of God, which a man cannot look upon, and live.

Christ was most definitely present with the lsraelites in the wilderness [1 Corinthians 10:4], and this suggests that God always descends to earth in a form of some description. These various temporary forms were taken by God, but only once did God choose to come in the form of 'flesh and blood'. This was a 'once for all time' incarnation, and will never be repeated, although we know that Christ Jesus will return in glory, in an immortal, spiritual, body.

Have you ever thought of taking up scriptwriting for Fantasy Films Society (F.F.S) ?

The God of the Jews is one God. One God: one name - one Person, one glory.

According to your ideology, your god is three persons - just as Hindu belief is in three persons - and three main gods of the Egypt - and three main Roman gods, and three Hellenistic gods…

So you see, there were many religious beliefs already in place purporting to have three gods. It is of no hard suggestion that the new ‘Christian’ belief should also have three gods so as to make it easier to confirm to those pagan societies - but since the Christian God is one, it must ALSO be claimed that this Christian God is ‘Though THREE is YET ONE GOD’.

You see that it must be stipulated that the three GODS are one since each so-called GOD is a PERSON. This then is supposed to satisfy both pagan three Godness and Christian /Jewish one Godness.

But here is what the true and only God says:

• “Here, O Israel, YHWH, your God, is one God!”
• “You will have no other God but me!”
• “Beside(s) me there is no other God”
• “God also said to Moses, “Say to the Israelites, ‘[YHWH], the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob—has sent me to you.’

And scriptures says:

• “There is only one God, and he makes people right with himself only by faith, whether they are Jews or Gentiles.” (Romans 3:30)
• “yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.” (1 Cor 8:6)

Even if it were taken that as truth that the verse in 1 Cor 8:6 says that ‘all things came THROUGH Jesus Christ’, that does not excuse the reality that everything FIRST CAME FROM GOD, the Father. And further, the verse EXPRESSES that the Father - and the Father ALONE, IS GOD… THE FATHER FROM WHOM ALL THINGS CAME!

And you rightly say that Jesus Christ ALSO ‘CAME FROM GOD’… from the Father… as Jesus, himself ALSO says:

• “[Father], I have given them the word YOU GAVE ME to give to them and they have received them. Now they know that you sent me!’
• ‘[Father], as you sent me into the world, so too I send them into the world’

This ‘Sending’ is not a ‘coming down from Heaven’ since there is no such thing ever, but rather a ‘Sending into the world’… the world of sinfulness, unrighteousness, ungodliness, … it means, ‘to face adversity’. Hence Jesus, after he had accomplished all that the Father commanded him, and achieved GLORY, said:

• ‘I am no longer in the world - but protect them Father by your mighty power since they are still in the world’…(paraphrased)

That meant that Jesus NO LONGER FACED ADVERSITY. Jesus could no longer be tempted - but the disciples and those to be Apostles, were subject to adversity: sin, wrongful accusations, temptations, wrongful teachings, teaching wrongfully for their own gain… etc. And indeed that is what some did which is how we end up with a debauched three person God by means of the so-called ‘HOLY’ Roman Catholic Church - the church of the whore of Babylon.

 

[Gezellig]

Hard to say. If Yahweh is spirit, he has no face, yet there are many verses regarding his body parts and what he does with them.

It's easier for us people to understand this way.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Have you ever thought of taking up scriptwriting for Fantasy Films Society (F.F.S) ?

The God of the Jews is one God. One God: one name - one Person, one glory.

According to your ideology, your god is three persons - just as Hindu belief is in three persons - and three main gods of the Egypt - and three main Roman gods, and three Hellenistic gods…

So you see, there were many religious beliefs already in place purporting to have three gods. It is of no hard suggestion that the new ‘Christian’ belief should also have three gods so as to make it easier to confirm to those pagan societies - but since the Christian God is one, it must ALSO be claimed that this Christian God is ‘Though THREE is YET ONE GOD’.

You see that it must be stipulated that the three GODS are one since each so-called GOD is a PERSON. This then is supposed to satisfy both pagan three Godness and Christian /Jewish one Godness.

But here is what the true and only God says:

• “Here, O Israel, YHWH, your God, is one God!”
• “You will have no other God but me!”
• “Beside(s) me there is no other God”
• “God also said to Moses, “Say to the Israelites, ‘[YHWH], the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob—has sent me to you.’

And scriptures says:

• “There is only one God, and he makes people right with himself only by faith, whether they are Jews or Gentiles.” (Romans 3:30)
• “yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.” (1 Cor 8:6)

Even if it were taken that as truth that the verse in 1 Cor 8:6 says that ‘all things came THROUGH Jesus Christ’, that does not excuse the reality that everything FIRST CAME FROM GOD, the Father. And further, the verse EXPRESSES that the Father - and the Father ALONE, IS GOD… THE FATHER FROM WHOM ALL THINGS CAME!

And you rightly say that Jesus Christ ALSO ‘CAME FROM GOD’… from the Father… as Jesus, himself ALSO says:

• “[Father], I have given them the word YOU GAVE ME to give to them and they have received them. Now they know that you sent me!’
• ‘[Father], as you sent me into the world, so too I send them into the world’

This ‘Sending’ is not a ‘coming down from Heaven’ since there is no such thing ever, but rather a ‘Sending into the world’… the world of sinfulness, unrighteousness, ungodliness, … it means, ‘to face adversity’. Hence Jesus, after he had accomplished all that the Father commanded him, and achieved GLORY, said:

• ‘I am no longer in the world - but protect them Father by your mighty power since they are still in the world’…(paraphrased)

That meant that Jesus NO LONGER FACED ADVERSITY. Jesus could no longer be tempted - but the disciples and those to be Apostles, were subject to adversity: sin, wrongful accusations, temptations, wrongful teachings, teaching wrongfully for their own gain… etc. And indeed that is what some did which is how we end up with a debauched three person God by means of the so-called ‘HOLY’ Roman Catholic Church - the church of the whore of Babylon.

Trinitarians also believe in one God, and Father of all.

Ephesians 4:6. 'One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through [amongst] all, and in you all'.

Ephesians 4:6 was part of an address made to the Church at Ephesus, and the message clearly states that the Spirit of the Father does not remain 'above', but comes to earth to dwell 'amongst', and 'within'.

When, therefore, did the Spirit of the Father come to dwell 'amongst' and 'within' the Church?

I would say that there cannot be any doubt that Jesus was 'God with us', meaning that the Spirit of the Father (the Word) dwelt on earth amongst men.

It was the Holy Spirit that brought about the conception of Jesus and then, at baptism, rested upon that man (and lived amongst us). Finally, the Holy Spirit, by which Jesus received his anointing, was sent to the Church at Pentecost.

Problems with interpretation begin when people assume that the years Jesus spent on earth (after baptism) were not years spent by the Father on earth. The Spirit of the Father did rest upon the Son! As Jesus said in Luke 4, quoting lsaiah 61, 'The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me'. Was the Spirit of the Father upon Jesus in full measure? It certainly was! [John 3:34]

The only conclusion that fits the scriptures is that Jesus Christ came to earth as the only true mediator. He was fully man, and fully God. When he was crucified, his flesh was put to death, and the figure that arose to new life was incorruptible and immortal. The resurrected Lord became a spiritual being, and is worthy of worship (service) 'in Spirit and in truth'. This is because Jesus Christ is indistinguishable from his Father in Spirit.

 

[Soapy]

Trinitarians also believe in one God, and Father of all.

Ephesians 4:6. 'One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through [amongst] all, and in you all'.

Ephesians 4:6 was part of an address made to the Church at Ephesus, and the message clearly states that the Spirit of the Father does not remain 'above', but comes to earth to dwell 'amongst', and 'within'.

When, therefore, did the Spirit of the Father come to dwell 'amongst' and 'within' the Church?

I would say that there cannot be any doubt that Jesus was 'God with us', meaning that the Spirit of the Father (the Word) dwelt on earth amongst men.

It was the Holy Spirit that brought about the conception of Jesus and then, at baptism, rested upon that man (and lived amongst us). Finally, the Holy Spirit, by which Jesus received his anointing, was sent to the Church at Pentecost.

Problems with interpretation begin when people assume that the years Jesus spent on earth (after baptism) were not years spent by the Father on earth. The Spirit of the Father did rest upon the Son! As Jesus said in Luke 4, quoting lsaiah 61, 'The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me'. Was the Spirit of the Father upon Jesus in full measure? It certainly was! [John 3:34]

The only conclusion that fits the scriptures is that Jesus Christ came to earth as the only true mediator. He was fully man, and fully God. When he was crucified, his flesh was put to death, and the figure that arose to new life was incorruptible and immortal. The resurrected Lord became a spiritual being, and is worthy of worship (service) 'in Spirit and in truth'. This is because Jesus Christ is indistinguishable from his Father in Spirit.

It is not the truth that God is the Father, the only true God, that is the issue. It is the blasphemous ideology that Jesus is also the only true God. And somehow the spirit of God is also a person AND God whose spirit it is… how weird an ideology trinity is.

‘God with us’ is a TITLE … it is not a PERSON.

It means that the thoughts and powers of God is with the people.

God was ‘With’ the Israelites as they travelled in the wilderness.

God was ‘With’ Jonah when he was in the mouth of the great fish.

God was ‘With’ Peter in jail. God was ‘with’ Noah in the ark during the storm.

There are many more times when ‘God’ was with people or an individual persons. It means God is SUPPORTING them.

 

[Redemptionsong]

It is not the truth that God is the Father, the only true God, that is the issue. It is the blasphemous ideology that Jesus is also the only true God. And somehow the spirit of God is also a person AND God whose spirit it is… how weird an ideology trinity is.

‘God with us’ is a TITLE … it is not a PERSON.

It means that the thoughts and powers of God is with the people.

God was ‘With’ the Israelites as they travelled in the wilderness.

God was ‘With’ Jonah when he was in the mouth of the great fish.

God was ‘With’ Peter in jail. God was ‘with’ Noah in the ark during the storm.

There are many more times when ‘God’ was with people or an individual persons. It means God is SUPPORTING them.

The truth of what it means to have God 'amongst' and 'within' goes all the way back to Adam.

When God communed with Adam and Eve, He did so because the Holy Spirit united them 'as one'. The Spirit in Adam was one with the Spirit of God, and it remained this way until the 'fall'.

At the fall, the Holy Spirit deserted Adam, and he lived by his own spirit until his death 'in the day'. In other words, his physical death came within a day of a thousand years.

The significance of these events helps to explain the meaning of salvation and redemption.

Since man cannot save himself, by giving himself eternal life, he must seek God's salvation from sin and death. The seal by which salvation is known in man is the Holy Spirit. And to bring justice for Adam's sin, it was necessary to pay a 'once for all time' payment for sin.

You say that 'God was with..' the Israelites and others, but we know that all these people died and went to the grave. Their hope of resurrection lies in Christ, and no one else. This is because God has sent Jesus Christ as His salvation, and there is no other name under heaven by which a man can be saved.

As you well know, there is only one Saviour, and that is God. So, if Christ is not the Saviour, then God was not in Christ. Yet, this is not what scripture tells us:
2 Corinthians 5:19. 'To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation'.

So, if God was not in Christ ('God with us'), then Jesus Christ was not the Saviour from sin.

Do you deny that Jesus is Saviour?

Luke 1:68,69. 'Blessed be the Lord God of Israel: for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;'

 

[Soapy]

The truth of what it means to have God 'amongst' and 'within' goes all the way back to Adam.

When God communed with Adam and Eve, He did so because the Holy Spirit united them 'as one'. The Spirit in Adam was one with the Spirit of God, and it remained this way until the 'fall'.

At the fall, the Holy Spirit deserted Adam, and he lived by his own spirit until his death 'in the day'. In other words, his physical death came within a day of a thousand years.

The significance of these events helps to explain the meaning of salvation and redemption.

Since man cannot save himself, by giving himself eternal life, he must seek God's salvation from sin and death. The seal by which salvation is known in man is the Holy Spirit. And to bring justice for Adam's sin, it was necessary to pay a 'once for all time' payment for sin.

You say that 'God was with..' the Israelites and others, but we know that all these people died and went to the grave. Their hope of resurrection lies in Christ, and no one else. This is because God has sent Jesus Christ as His salvation, and there is no other name under heaven by which a man can be saved.

As you well know, there is only one Saviour, and that is God. So, if Christ is not the Saviour, then God was not in Christ. Yet, this is not what scripture tells us:
2 Corinthians 5:19. 'To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation'.

So, if God was not in Christ ('God with us'), then Jesus Christ was not the Saviour from sin.

Do you deny that Jesus is Saviour?

Luke 1:68,69. 'Blessed be the Lord God of Israel: for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;'

You were doing so well until you started down the well trodden trinitarian deceitful act of setting a trap.

That ‘trap’ was to declare God as the only saviour and then to say that Jesus is the only saviour therefore Jesus must be God… tuh!!!

What this signifies is exactly that trinity is false since it only exists by the deceitfulness as you have just done!

GOD SENT A SAVIOUR…

God sent a saviour…

Jesus is the saviour God sent…

God EMPOWERED Jesus to act in HIS power as saviour…

This empowerment was by means of the spirit of God which God placed on him at the river Jordan: aka: The anointing of Jesus with the Spirit of God. By this event Jesus BECAME ‘Christ’, which you know means, ‘[the] Anointed [one]’. Obviously there were other anointing of kings and priests in past times but this anointing was not with earthly (though sacred) oils, but with the holiest of oils, the ‘oil of gladness’ which is spiritual oil.

When scriptures states that ‘God sent Jesus’, it was after this anointing - and the subsequent temptation in the wilderness (which Jesus passed) that God sent Jesus ‘into the world’.

Again, the meaning of ‘in[to] the world’ is “To face adversity, sinfulness, evil, defiance against God’s commands and guidance”

Until Jesus was ‘sent’, Jesus faced a relatively unremarkable life. Even his mother started becoming anxious that her son had not gone out ‘performing’ what the Angel told her would happen.

God raised up a horn from the house of David. ‘GOD’ raised up the horn … the saviour of Israel - His people: Jesus…

A ship owner heard of a party of people who were in danger of dying due to misappropriation of the use of one of his vessels he put them in and was out at sea.

This man first waited to see if the captain could rescue the ship - but over time it was clear that he could not.

The ship owner therefore decide to rescue the ship with people. He contacted the ship and searched for a competent operator on board and passed over vital information about the operation of the ship and how to correct the errors that the captain had caused. This operator was therefore empowered in greater powerfulness than the captain.

When this empowered operator announced that he had been put in charge, many looked on him with incredulous ness that such a simple operator could have such power and authority but nevertheless many cheered and praised him saying, ‘The Ship owner is with us… Hosanna - Hosanna! A saviour has been sent to us!!’

Despite this, when there wasn’t an immediate salvation because the empowered operator ask for faith in him, many people on board did not take to listening, did not have the faith or plain believed in him and started jumping overboard or in lifeboats into the rough waves of the dark sea. However, these found they were rudderless, had no guidance, and the lifeboats were not sound… but they still thought it was better than staying on the ship!

Back on the ship - after following every instruction in every was directed by the ship owner, the empowered operator saved the ship and brought it to a safe port and thereby saving the people who were on board and had not jumped overboard in to the dark depths of the sea and drowned due to lack of faith and belief in the empowered operator …

This operator so pleased the ship owner that he gave the operator a fleet of his own ships to own and manage!

The captain from that rescued ship was dismissed in disgrace!

————————————

Who saved the ship?