Is it possible to talk with an atheist?

[leibowde84]

@leibowde84
@ALL readers and posters


Here is No. 1 step of my proof for God existing, from evidence of everything in the universe having a beginning, including the universe itself.

1. Enunciate the concept of God, namely, in concept God is the creator of everything with a beginning.​

Now, dear leibowde84 and company, there in No. 1 you guys already bring in the word, presumption, which for you is the give-away of my circular reasoning, because a concept of something is already the presumption that it exists.

So, according to you guys, the concept of God from me, namely, "[In concept] God is the creator of everything with a beginning," that is a presumption, and therefore I am into a fallacy.

You see, you guys are so very naive, now tell me what about in court there is invoked the law that an accused is presumed innocent; so the court and the law are into a fallacy?


I will be back later in the late afternoon.

It is now in my place 06:46 .a.m. Easter Sunday, April 16, 2017.

​

Annex

I will wait to reply until you provide your evidence that God is the creator of everything with a beginning (not that God exists based on assuming that God is the creator of everything with a beginning). Good luck!

 

[columbus]

I will wait to reply until you provide your evidence that God is the creator of everything with a beginning (not that God exists based on assuming that God is the creator of everything with a beginning). Good luck!

FWIW
He has consistently ignored and dodged arguments that nothing with objective existence has a real beginning. That is as plain as the nose on his face.
Tom

 

[leibowde84]

FWIW
He has consistently ignored and dodged arguments that nothing with objective existence has a real beginning. That is as plain as the nose on his face.
Tom

Also, he has failed to provide evidence supporting his claim that god is the creator of everything with a beginning.

 

[columbus]

Also, he has failed to provide evidence supporting his claim that god is the creator of everything with a beginning.

Perhaps you and I could discuss which is the bigger flaw in Sanmario's reasoning. At least then there would be an actual discussion in this thread.

Tom

 

[leibowde84]

@leibowde84






Here we go, dear readers, read carefully.


Okay, as you leibowde84 deny that God is the creator of everything with a beginning: pray, tell me who or what creates everything with a beginning?

I didn't deny it. I am just not accepting it without evidence. What evidence do you have to prove that God is the creator of everything with a beginning? It's not an actual argument if you just demand that we accept it without evidence.

 

[leibowde84]

@leibowde84
@ALL readers and posters who read carefully


Do you notice, dear readers, that all the time I am trying my darn hard to get leibowde84 and company to get our concepts correctly concurred on, so that they are valid concepts; but leibowde84 and company, they will not even talk about what is a valid concept.

Here is the meaning of a valid concept, namely, one in which the intrinsic component parts are coherent and consistent among themselves, this makes a concept a possibility of an object coming into existence outside of the concept in our mind, but corresponding to the concept.

You see, leibowde84 and company do not dare to talk validity of concepts, like in the word God in concept as the creator of everything with a beginning, they just want to insist that the concept itself is already a presumption that God exists and therefore it is a fallacy.

So I ask them, what about the presumption of innocence in court and in law, by which an accused is presumed to be innocent, what do they say about that? they will accuse the court and law that they are into a fallacy?

That is an invite from me that they and I talk about what is a presumption, but they run away.

All I am asking is that you support your argument that God is the creator of everything with a beginning with actual evidence. I do not accept that God is the creator of everything with a beginning just because you demand it. You have to prove your case first. That is how arguments work.

So, again, for the 50th time, what evidence do you have to prove that God is the creator of everything with a beginning? If you cannot support this claim with evidence, please just be honest and admit it.

 

[leibowde84]

@leibowde84






Here we go, dear readers, read carefully.


Okay, as you leibowde84 deny that God is the creator of everything with a beginning: pray, tell me who or what creates everything with a beginning?

You have not presented any evidence supporting your claim that God is the creator of everything with a beginning. I am not going to accept this claim of yours until you provide evidence to support it.

And, btw, a court of law has nothing to do with what we are talking about. You are presenting an argument, not fighting for your freedom. It would be absurd to expect the same rules to apply.

 

[siti]

I see everything with my eyes and I experience everything I meet as for example the babies at home and the roses in the garden, and everything else, you mention it, it has a beginning.

All these things are made of matter that was formed (from energy) in the first few seconds after the Big Bang. All of them - and your nose - are made of stuff that is almost 14 billion years old (by current estimates) and that stuff came from the energy that was (somehow) present in the incredibly small space (smaller than an atom they reckon) that has now expanded to the size of the observable universe (about 93 billion light years across). The energy was just there - we have no idea how it got there, how old it might have been, where it came from or whether or not it had a beginning. As far as we know, energy can be neither created nor destroyed - it just is - as far as we can possibly tell, without beginning or end - eternal. But it can be transformed, quite naturally, into matter and back again - and the matter can be transformed into babies, roses and noses - and other things. The matter/energy of which they are made is, as far as we know, eternal, beginning-less and quite possibly endless.

Until you can produce evidence that this is not the case, all you are doing is repeating a baseless, and frankly, puerile, assumption.

 

[siti]

let us all sit back and await with bated breath to witness how siti explains the manner by which his arse and his fart are evidence of the universe having no beginning.

I already explained this - in posts #97, #285, #295 and #356. Perhaps if you bring yourself to stop speaking through yours, you would be able to understand how mine does not provide any evidence for the universe having a beginning.

 

[siti]

Dear siti, you already know that citing links is just a waste of time....I never do bother to look them up

My apologies - I momentarily forgot your aversion to any real evidence and lack of reading ability.

present in six steps how your arse and fart are evidence of the universe with no beginning.

OK

1. Enunciate the concept of God, namely, in concept God is the creator of my arse.
2. I go to the realm of existence to look for the beginning of my arse.
3. I see everything with my eyes and I experience everything I meet, including my arse, as being made of atoms that emerged from the energy contained within the miniscule universe shortly (a few seconds) after the Big Bang. I also note that we have absolutely no idea where that energy came from. It may very well be eternal - beginningless and possibly endless.
4. So, there is absolutely zero evidence to prove that the matter/energy of which my arse is composed had a beginning.
5. There is, therefore, no evidence whatsoever of God existing in concept as the creator of my arse.
6. Conclusion from evidence: God has absolutely nothing to do with the existence of my arse (or anything else, including @Sanmario's nose).
QED

 

[siti]

evidence of all things in the universe having a beginning

You have still, 364 posts into this thread, failed to provide a single shred of evidence to show that "all things in the universe" have a beginning. Provide evidence that the matter/energy of which all things in the universe are composed had a beginning.

BTW I am not attempting to derail this thread - If I were a believing Christian, I would definitely be trying to derail this thread by telling you in no uncertain terms to shut the f*** up, and stop embarrassing our religion and our God. But your blatant idiocy is doing more for the cause of atheism (if there even is such a thing as a cause of atheism) than any logical argument I could present. All you have proved so far is that your 'reason' for believing in the preposterous 'concept' of God you have 'enunciated' is utterly devoid of anything resembling reason or anything resembling evidence. I guess I will give up eventually, but for now, I'm happy to let you continue with your inane repetitions and puerile insults - they will only serve to persuade people against belief in a completely outdated and irrational concept of deity - and once they let go of that, they will be open to the more sensible options of either rational belief or rational disbelief. For providing such a stark counterpoint to rational religious discourse, I thank you most sarcastically on behalf of anyone who might find your asinine absurdities effective in freeing them from the shackles of fatuous faith and crass credulity.

Pray continue...

 

[Sanmario]

@ALL who have the skill and habit to think on reason grounding themselves on observation as to come to intelligent conclusion.


Quick message to all you guys who read this thread.

Recall that science is into discovering and/or inventing new things or ways and means to doing things: better, faster, and more easily.

And also explaining how things came into existence, like the nose in our face, and siti's arse and fart.


I will be away from the computer for some two hours, in the meantime think about the two roles of science.

 

[siti]

I'm not digressing, I am asking the very same question I asked way back in post #65 (my first in this thread)...anyway, since you are now - 360+ posts into a discussion in which you base your "proof" of God's existence on the notion that everything has a beginning - asking for a definition of "beginning" among other things, here goes...

Matter/energy is what everything in the universe is made of. The universe is everything. Time is how we measure the duration of states or processes. Space is what the gap between your ears is filled with and a beginning (of all of that space, time, matter and energy that is the universe aka everything) is what you have so miserably failed to demonstrate.

So, repeating my original question for the eleventy billionth time, what is your evidence to prove that the universe had a beginning?

 

[siti]

Quick message to all you guys who read this thread.

Sorry to break this to you, but I think there's only me and you now.

 

[dgirl1986]

I dont think there would be an atheist that wouldnt be willing to talk about it unless they had been doing for it years and were over the whole thing.

 

[dgirl1986]

Ok...so...you said that were not trying to convert atheists or whatever...yet you are trying to prove the existence of god.

FYI - the scientific method makes it impossible to PROVE the existence of a being like god because it is not testable.

 

[dgirl1986]

@siti
@leibowde84
@ALL who use reason to examine observation and thus arrive at intelligent conclusion.



Dear siti, you say the universe is everything: "The universe is everything."

I give you four things that are components of the universe and they have a beginning:

1. Babies
2. Roses
3. Cat
4. dgirl1986 Big Queer Chesticles!


Give me four things components of the universe without beginning i.e. they have always existed.



Annex

My big queer chesticles began during puberty.

 

[siti]

@Sanmario - it doesn't work like that...all the things you have pointed to as things having a beginning are composed of matter and energy. All the material things we can point to - any number of them, let alone four, are composed of matter that emerged from the energy of the universe in the first few seconds after the Big Bang. We have no idea where that energy came from and it may, for all we know, be eternal. There is no way that you can prove otherwise. So it really doesn't matter whether or not I can prove that this or that did not have a beginning, all I need to do is to demonstrate that you cannot prove that they did and I have done exactly that half a dozen times in this thread. There is no evidence to prove that the universe had a beginning. If you want to refute that statement you must present verifiable evidence, or at least a logical argument, to show that the universe did have a beginning. This is precisely what I have been inviting you to do repeatedly and you have consistently failed to do so.

 

[siti]

You have presented no evidence at all to show that the matter and energy of which babies, roses, cats etc. etc. had a beginning.

So, once again, what is your evidence to prove that the universe had a beginning?

 

[leibowde84]

@leibowde84
@ALL
@ALL who read carefully and think on reason grounded on observation, into intelligent conclusion.



Dear leidbowde84, you say:
"You have not presented any evidence supporting your claim that God is the creator of everything with a beginning. I am not going to accept this claim of yours until you provide evidence to support it."

And I have been telling you for nth times already that my proof for God existing in concept as the creator of everything with a beginning is founded on evidence, consisting in the facts of everything we see and experience and we know from science, all have a beginning.

1. Enunciate the concept of God, namely, in concept God is the creator of everything with a beginning.
2. I go to the realm of existence to look for everything with a beginning.
3. I see everything with my eyes and I experience everything I meet as for example the babies at home and the roses in the garden, and everything else, you mention it, it has a beginning.
4. So, there are everything with a beginning that we are living with and in and within.
5. They are evidence of God existing in concept as creator of everything with a beginning.
6. Conclusion from evidence: God exists in concept as creator of everything with a beginning.

So, you tell me what evidence you have that ascertains you God does not exist, namely, God in concept as the creator of everyting with a beginning.


Dear readers here, let us with bated breath await leibowde84 and his sidekicks to reply to this post, with bated breath, even up to tomorrow.

You aren't answering my question. You are merely assuming that God is the creator of everything with a beginning. I am asking that you provide evidence for this claim before moving on.

What evidence do you have to prove that God is the creator of everything with a beginning?

NOT, that God exists as the creator of everything with a beginning!!! You must prove that God is the creator of everything with a beginning before moving forward with an argument that God exists.