Is it reasonable to believe in God just because God exists?

[Bthoth]

That hypothetical someone does not necessarily believe in God without evidence but that is not relevant to the point of this thread.

No, I am not asking that. The underlying assumption is that one believes in God.

Is it reasonable to believe in God if one does not like the God they believe in?
Is it reasonable to believe in God because one fears God they believe in?
Is it reasonable to serve the God they believe in out of duty if one does not like God?

Most have no problem with god. It's the people that claim a god that most are disagreeing with.

 

[Trailblazer]

I don't think that comparison is correct. If any you could compare it to your parents, but not a job.

Yes, that would be a better comparison since God is supposed to be our Father.

But if God is all-loving, then there ought to be nothing to fear from him.

But even if God is All-Loving, God also has many other attributes, like All-Powerful, and God's power is something to fear.

I don't think learning to love God seems right. If you found Hitler to be doing awful things and feared him, the solution should not be to try to learn to like him, but either to fight him or pretend to like him. This is what a lot of people do in North Korea, except we are talking about a God who knows everything so hiding anything from him wouldn't work.

No, it would not be good to try to learn to love God if God is a bad dude like Hitler, but there is no reason to believe that Gid is bad, not unless you believe the anthropomorphic depictions of God in the OT.

So in all honesty given that this is a God with given attributes, you obviously can't fight him, but you could choose to not worship him until he gives you an explanation for the things you don't like about him, that only seems fair and would have nothing to do with whether he is real or not, simply whether he deserves to be liked or not.

I love you @Nimos. Yes, I could choose to not worship God until He gives me an explanation for the things I don't like about Him, which could be until hell freezes over, since God does not speak to humans. The first question I will ask when I get to Heaven, if I make it there, is why the hell He created such a cruel world for us to live in till we die. The second question I will ask God is why He favored certain people over others. My fellow Baha'is don't think I will need to ask these questions since I will know the answers after I die, because I will be so happy that I suffered all my life since I will be a better person for it, but I am not buying the party line.

No, that has nothing to do with whether God is real or not, simply whether He deserves to be liked or not. All of the Baha'is I know like God but they have not had my life.

It is not a lot different from what Atheists do, except we don't see evidence for his existence, obviously. But even if it turns out he did, we would still demand answers for some of the things he is said to have done or allowed before we would even consider "liking" him, that is your free will after all.

Imo, atheists demand answers because they are more rational than believers who just believe because of what scriptures say, scriptures that have no real answers. I guess I am kind of an atheist-believer hybrid, since I believe in God but I want answers. Believers are not supposed to want answers, we are just supposed to have faith. Too bad I analyze everything.

I assume you don't like him because he allows bad things, whether they are personal or in general. If he did none of that, why would you then not like him?

Yes, that is the main reason I don't like Him. If He did none of that I would probably like Him.
But according to my fellow believers I am supposed to like Him in spite of that. Not only that, but I am supposed to thank God for the bad things. I am sorry but I cannot do that since it is illogical.

If that is the case, then you can also choose not to serve him if you don't like him. I don't really see the issue then?

That is true. I can serve Him even though I don't like Him and that might even mitigate the punishment I would otherwise incur in the afterlife for not liking Him.

But I am not really that worried about what God will do to me in the afterlife because I know that God knows why I don't like Him and He understands how I feel and forgives me.

 

[Willamena]

The underlying assumption is that one believes in God because there is evidence for God.

Is it reasonable to believe in God if one does not like God?
Is it reasonable to believe in God because one fears God?
Is it reasonable to serve God out of duty if one does not like God?

I don't see what "liking" God has to do with the OP question of whether God exists.

It is reasonable to believe in that which exists. Belief is slaved to truth, hence we, as atheists, should raise an alarm.

 

[Trailblazer]

The question wasn't about God, but religions a person does not like being a part of, but stays.

So I guess you mean a religious person who does not like being part of a religion but stays as a member.
I have stayed as a member of the Baha'i Faith even though I have not always liked being a member, not because I do not believe in it, but for other reasons. The way I dealt with not liking it was not to participate in the activities.

Actual people find some religious experiences uncomfortable.

I find a lot of Baha'i activities uncomfortable so I do not participate in them. This includes devotionals and study groups, but there are also other activities I find uncomfortable. I was never very interested in religion since I was not raised in any religion. I took after my father who was an atheist who was very much into academia.

I would question why they think any God exists, and suggest they reject any of the versions they have heard about, expecially if God was used by believers to hurt them. For example we see many in politics use God as a reason to eliminate abortion access, which has put many womens' health, and life, in peril.

That is a useful suggestion.

 

[Trailblazer]

I don't see what "liking" God has to do with the OP question of whether God exists.

I can see how the OP title was misleading:
Is it reasonable to believe in God just because God exists?

but the OP question is not about whether God exists or not.

Assuming that a person believes in God because that person believes there is evidence for God:

Is it reasonable for that person to believe in God if that person does not like God?
Is it reasonable for that person to believe in God because that person fears God?
Is it reasonable for that person to serve God out of duty if that person does not like God?

It is reasonable to believe in that which exists. Belief is slaved to truth, hence we, as atheists, should raise an alarm.

Nobody knows whether God exists or not, so that is a moot point.
As such, it is just as reasonable to believe or not believe.
It all depends upon if one sees evidence for God.

 

[Nimos]

But even if God is All-Loving, God also has many other attributes, like All-Powerful, and God's power is something to fear.

But a soldier hopefully doesn't fear his fellow soldiers just because they are driving around in a tank. The point is that if you have complete trust in someone, you can equip them with whatever "power" and they shouldn't be any more scary. Especially, God, I don't think he accidentally hurt someone

It is not like a human capable of making a mistake.

I love you @Nimos. Yes, I could choose to not worship God until He gives me an explanation for the things I don't like about Him, which could be until hell freezes over, since God does not speak to humans.

Thank you

But in that case, then you should be in your good right to not worship him. What other option do you have? At best you can give him the benefit of the doubt that he does what he does with good intentions. But then again, why should you, when he has decided not to offer any explanations?

Especially since humans have offered very plausible explanations as to why things are as they are, with a non answering God.

My fellow Baha'is don't think I will need to ask these questions since I will know the answers after I die, because I will be so happy that I suffered all my life since I will be a better person for it, but I am not buying the party line.

I completely agree, that is utter nonsense. And follows in the same line as "Because God works in mysterious ways" which translated to common language means "I have no clue"

No, that has nothing to do with whether God is real or not, simply whether He deserves to be liked or not. All of the Baha'is I know like God but they have not had my life.

But even that falls short. Again we have spoken about this, even if person A, B and C have amazing lives, doesn't excuse God for animal cruelty or the millions of other people suffering. Most of all I would say this is an expression of selfishness or being narrowminded, with a complete lack of greater perspective.

But according to my fellow believers I am supposed to like Him in spite of that. Not only that, but I am supposed to thank God for the bad things. I am sorry but I cannot do that since it is illogical.

Again, I can only agree, it is utter nonsense to do something like that. If someone beats you half to death with a stick you don't thank them, you call the police and get them locked away and punished. Rightfully so.

God might be all-powerful, yet he is not beyond explanation for what he does if he wants people to love him. Having to suffer a whole life, to get an explanation afterward is rubbish, whether he is God or not, there is no excuse for it.

That is true. I can serve Him even though I don't like Him and that might even mitigate the punishment I would otherwise incur in the afterlife for not liking Him.

If he is treating things now as badly as he does, why on Earth would anyone believe that it is any better in the afterlife? There is nothing to support this even remotely. Again, animals are completely innocent, yet treated with such cruelty, that has nothing to do with humans at all. Yet God doesn't seem to care about that either.

But I am not really that worried about what God will do to me in the afterlife because I know that God knows why I don't like Him and He understands how I feel and forgives me.

I would assume that this is what most religious people hope for. Obvious as an Atheist, I would rather have nothing to do with God at all, except if he can give the most insane explanation for what was going on, on Earth.

But honestly, despite all the powers God is said to have, I doubt even he can give such an explanation

 

[Kfox]

The underlying assumption is that one believes in God because there is evidence for God.

Is it reasonable to believe in God if one does not like God?
Is it reasonable to believe in God because one fears God?
Is it reasonable to serve God out of duty if one does not like God?

What do you think? Are any of these reasonable?

If you think they are reasonable, why do you think so?

If you think they are unreasonable, why do you think so?

What does it mean to "believe in" God?

 

[Trailblazer]

What does it mean to "believe in" God?

It means to believe that God exists.

 

[Trailblazer]

But a soldier hopefully doesn't fear his fellow soldiers just because they are driving around in a tank. The point is that if you have complete trust in someone, you can equip them with whatever "power" and they shouldn't be any more scary. Especially, God, I don't think he accidentally hurt someone

It is not like a human capable of making a mistake.

That is a very good point. If you have complete trust in someone you do not fear what they might do to you, unjustly. God is just so people never get any punishment that they do not deserve. Also, God's mercy exceeds His justice so there is really nothing to fear as long as you are not evil. The following quote is from the Guardian of the Baha'i Faith.

Perhaps the friends do not realize that the majority of human beings need the element of fear in order to discipline their conduct? Only a relatively very highly evolved soul would always be disciplined by love alone. Fear of punishment, fear of the anger of God if we do evil, are needed to keep people’s feet on the right path. Of course we should love God – but we must fear Him in the sense of a child fearing the righteous anger and chastisement of a parent; not cringe before Him as before a tyrant, but know His Mercy exceeds His Justice!
Shoghi Effendi, Lights of Guidance, p. 238

Fear of God is really a necessity for most people and Baha'u'llah explained why that is the case..

“The first word which the Abhá Pen hath revealed and inscribed on the first leaf of Paradise is this: “Verily I say: The fear of God hath ever been a sure defence and a safe stronghold for all the peoples of the world. It is the chief cause of the protection of mankind, and the supreme instrument for its preservation. Indeed, there existeth in man a faculty which deterreth him from, and guardeth him against, whatever is unworthy and unseemly, and which is known as his sense of shame. This, however, is confined to but a few; all have not possessed, and do not possess, it.”
Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 27

But in that case, then you should be in your good right to not worship him. What other option do you have? At best you can give him the benefit of the doubt that he does what he does with good intentions. But then again, why should you, when he has decided not to offer any explanations?

Especially since humans have offered very plausible explanations as to why things are as they are, with a non answering God.

I don't really worship God in the usual sense, which includes praying and loving God. I do pray, but only for help, not to praise God. Any worshiping I do is in the form of service work. Work is considered worship in the Baha'i Faith.

Sometimes I give God the benefit of the doubt, knowing He wants the best for me, but other times I am just mad.

Humans have some explanations for the way things are without a God explanation but I don't think they can explain why there is so much suffering, other than the fact that physical and psychological problems cause suffering, which is obvious. But why does it have to be this way? Only God knows.

I completely agree, that is utter nonsense. And follows in the same line as "Because God works in mysterious ways" which translated to common language means "I have no clue"

No, they really have no clue so they have to make something up to protect their God's reputation.

But even that falls short. Again we have spoken about this, even if person A, B and C have amazing lives, doesn't excuse God for animal cruelty or the millions of other people suffering. Most of all I would say this is an expression of selfishness or being narrowminded, with a complete lack of greater perspective.

I am with you on that one, and the religious apologetic falls short when we look at the stark cold reality of life in this world.

Again, I can only agree, it is utter nonsense to do something like that. If someone beats you half to death with a stick you don't thank them, you call the police and get them locked away and punished. Rightfully so.

I usually feel beaten half to death by God but I have no recourse since I cannot call the police on God and I cannot control my own fate. I hold God responsible for fate, and I do not believe I have free will in the sense that I can change many things about my life even if I want to. I would not be in my predicament if I was not who I am, but it is not as if I can choose to be someone different, so I just have to try to make the best of what I have. I have a job, my health, money and cats, even though I have no partner or family. Maybe this is just my fate.

God might be all-powerful, yet he is not beyond explanation for what he does if he wants people to love him. Having to suffer a whole life, to get an explanation afterward is rubbish, whether he is God or not, there is no excuse for it.

No, I don't think there is any excuse for that. Baha'is believe they have an explanation but it doesn't stand up to intellectual scrutiny. I just cannot see it the way other Baha'is see it because I think and analyze things rather than just believing them because of what scriptures say.

If he is treating things now as badly as he does, why on Earth would anyone believe that it is any better in the afterlife? There is nothing to support this even remotely. Again, animals are completely innocent, yet treated with such cruelty, that has nothing to do with humans at all. Yet God doesn't seem to care about that either.

I am with you on that. What reason do I have to believe that the afterlife is going to be so much better than this life, other than what scriptures say? It all goes back to that. We have to believe in the promises on faith since there is no proof. We could have a little bit more to go on than we do if the afterlife is so great. This is a true test of faith if you are the one who suffers a lot in this life. It is one thing after another and the beat goes on.

I would assume that this is what most religious people hope for. Obvious as an Atheist, I would rather have nothing to do with God at all, except if he can give the most insane explanation for what was going on, on Earth.

You are probably better off as an Atheist since you don't have to wonder about God the way I do, wonder about things there are no good answers to.

But honestly, despite all the powers God is said to have, I doubt even he can give such an explanation

I think God could have if He had wanted to.

 

[Nimos]

Humans have some explanations for the way things are without a God explanation but I don't think they can explain why there is so much suffering, other than the fact that physical and psychological problems cause suffering, which is obvious. But why does it have to be this way? Only God knows.

The simple explanation is that there isn't a grand design. There is no evil or good intention behind any of it, it is simply nature going about its business. The circle of life so to speak, where no one is special.

So the question of why is there so much suffering in the world, if we look at the animals, is meaningless. It would be like asking why is the color red and not green instead?

Questions like these only make sense in a world where one believes there is an intention behind it.

You are probably better off as an Atheist since you don't have to wonder about God the way I do, wonder about things there are no good answers to.

I think Atheists are better off at least compared to people who question or fear God. Because it is one less worry to deal with. I don't think atheists are happier simply because they are atheists.

I also think that atheists are probably more satisfied because we embrace natural explanations more than a majority of religious people seem to do from my experience, as they constantly have to weigh it against their religious doctrines, dictating one option, whereas atheists are not bound to one single explanation, simply the one that seems best at a given time.

 

[danieldemol]

It would only be serving God out of fear if God threatened me with consequences for not serving Him, but such is not the case.

Actually the Baha'i god threatens people with consequences for not following him in my view;

'This is the Day that God hath ordained to be a blessing unto the righteous, a retribution for the wicked, a bounty for the faithful and a fury of His wrath for the faithless'

Source: Bahá'í Reference Library - Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh Revealed After the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, Pages 101-134

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

What you are saying is true, since only the hearer of the message can decide what to believe about a man who claims to be a Messenger.
Please let me know if you think there is any way around that.

However, my logical point still stands. A Messenger of God is a Messenger of God only if God sent him with a message. That is what makes a man a Messenger.

Then I put it to you that YOU, who are making the determination set out in your second paragraph, are also making the determination of whether he is or is not a Messenger. You don't actually know -- you simply decide.

Which means, by the way, that the truth of their claim -- outside of the opinions of their hearers -- remains unresolved.

 

[Trailblazer]

Actually the Baha'i god threatens people with consequences for not following him in my view;

'This is the Day that God hath ordained to be a blessing unto the righteous, a retribution for the wicked, a bounty for the faithful and a fury of His wrath for the faithless'

Source: Bahá'í Reference Library - Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh Revealed After the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, Pages 101-134

I said: "It would only be serving God out of fear if God threatened me with consequences for not serving Him, but such is not the case."

We all know that there are dire consequences for those who do not follow God, according to Baha'u'llah.
However, I was not referring to following God, I was referring to serving God. Can you find some verses that say there are consequences from God for not serving God?

 

[danieldemol]

I said: "It would only be serving God out of fear if God threatened me with consequences for not serving Him, but such is not the case."

We all know that there are dire consequences for those who do not follow God, according to Baha'u'llah.
However, I was not referring to following God, I was referring to serving God. Can you find some verses that say there are consequences from God for not serving God?

The elements of serving God are following God and doing the deeds that are in accordance with God's alleged law, referred to by the reference to righteousness in the quote I provided in my view.

I won't ask what the difference is between following God and following God's alleged law on the one hand, and serving God on the other hand is because in my view there is no difference and I do not wish to invite a game of semantics.

 

[Trailblazer]

Then I put it to you that YOU, who are making the determination set out in your second paragraph, are also making the determination of whether he is or is not a Messenger. You don't actually know -- you simply decide.

No, I do not determine whether or not He is a Messenger. That was determined by God, IF He was a Messenger..
Yes, I am deciding to believe that He is a Messenger. I cannot know that as a fact, since it is not subject to proof.

Which means, by the way, that the truth of their claim -- outside of the opinions of their hearers -- remains unresolved.

The truth of their claim can never be resolved universally. We can only resolve it in our own minds.

 

[Trailblazer]

The elements of serving God are following God and doing the deeds that are in accordance with God's alleged law, referred to by the reference to righteousness in the quote I provided in my view.

I won't ask what the difference is between following God and following God's alleged law on the one hand, and serving God on the other hand is because in my view there is no difference and I do not wish to invite a game of semantics.

The quote you provided does not apply to what I said about serving God. For a Baha'i, serving God includes things like teaching the Faith or helping to build the Baha'i community. It has NOTHING to do with the law of God.

Following the Baha'i laws is about obedience to God, it is not about serving God.

“The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Dayspring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed. It behoveth every one who reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of transcendent glory, to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world. These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the other. Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the Source of Divine inspiration.”

Bahá’u’lláh, The Kitáb-i-Aqdas, p. 19

 

[danieldemol]

The quote you provided does not apply to what I said about serving God. For a Baha'i, serving God includes things like teaching the Faith or helping to build the Baha'i community. It has NOTHING to do with the law of God.

Following the Baha'i laws is about obedience to God, it is not about serving God.

“The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Dayspring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed. It behoveth every one who reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of transcendent glory, to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world. These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the other. Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the Source of Divine inspiration.”

Bahá’u’lláh, The Kitáb-i-Aqdas, p. 19

Lol Baha'u'llah explicitly mentions duties, "for His servants" in the opening sentence of the quote you provided and you think it has nothing to do with serving him in my opinion.

 

[Trailblazer]

The simple explanation is that there isn't a grand design. There is no evil or good intention behind any of it, it is simply nature going about its business. The circle of life so to speak, where no one is special.

So the question of why is there so much suffering in the world, if we look at the animals, is meaningless. It would be like asking why is the color red and not green instead?

Questions like these only make sense in a world where one believes there is an intention behind it.

Questions like these only make sense in a world where one believes there is a God behind it.

I think Atheists are better off at least compared to people who question or fear God. Because it is one less worry to deal with. I don't think atheists are happier simply because they are atheists.

That is a good observation. However, it is notable that most believers do not question God the way I do and ask the hard questions I ask. Thye simply accept what their scriptures say about God.

As for fearing God, believers do not fear what God might do to them as long as they are following what their scriptures say to believe and do.

Even though I don't follow everything in the scriptures such as loving God, I believe that God understands and forgives me for that, because being All-Knowing, God knows how hard I have tried, and still try.

I also think that atheists are probably more satisfied because we embrace natural explanations more than a majority of religious people seem to do from my experience, as they constantly have to weigh it against their religious doctrines, dictating one option, whereas atheists are not bound to one single explanation, simply the one that seems best at a given time.

That is another good observation. From my point of view, it is sure a lot easier to be an atheist since you don't have to look at religious scriptures and make them fit with what you see in the real world. For those who are happy with the explanations in their scriptures it is not hard to be a believer, but since I am not happy with those explanations it is difficult to be a believer.

 

[Trailblazer]

Lol Baha'u'llah explicitly mentions duties, "for His servants" in the opening sentence of the quote you provided and you think it has nothing to do with serving him in my opinion.

No, following the Laws is obeying God, not serving God.
Baha'is are referred to as His servants but everything we do is not serving God.

 

[danieldemol]

As for fearing God, believers do not fear what God might do to them as long as they are following what their scriptures say to believe and do.

It depends, i can't comment for all scriptures, however the Baha'i scriptures admonish people to fear God in my view.

Eg. 'Fear ye God, and deprive not yourselves of the sweet savours of the days of the Lord of all names and attributes. Take heed lest ye alter or pervert the text of the Word of God. Walk ye in the fear of God, and be numbered with the righteous.'

Source: Bahá'í Reference Library - The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, Pages 3-54