Is it true?

[paarsurrey]

I believe he meant it as a literal example ... something factual to illustrate his point about something vaguely spiritual. Something akin to if you walk a stray path you'll fall (metaphorically) just as you would if you walked to the edge of the earth, and fell off. (science)

"I believe he meant it as a literal example ... something factual to illustrate his point about something vaguely spiritual."
I agree with one here.
The first part of the metal copper having become metal gold, has to be literal only then the other part would be meaningful.

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

The passage is from the Kitab-i-Iqan, not Kitab-i-Aqdas.

It can be found on page 157 here:

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Íqán, Pages 121-160

If read in context, the verse is about the spiritual transformation of the soul of man. In that sense Copper and Gold are used as metaphors to compare the state of a soul who is animated by God (Gold) compared to one who is not (Copper).

Seventy years is also used metaphorically throughout the Baha'i writings.

Some Muslims who are antagonistic towards the Baha'i Faith like to take verses from the Baha'i writings out of context and assign a meaning that was never intended.

Some Baha'is will (mistakenly IMHO) take it literally as well.

Thanks for pointing it out to me. I have corrected it in my post/s, please.

Regards

 

[TransmutingSoul]

We are only discussing a passage of Kitab-i- Iqan of Bahaullah in this thread, please.
Thanks for agreeing that "leaving copper in it’s mine molten for seventy years will not cause it to become gold". Does one mean that Bahaullah wrote it, as a fact, as he was a fallible human being, please?

Regards

It means we do not yet know and that we are fallible. It is for us to discover.

Regards Tony

 

[paarsurrey]

Yes Baha’u’llah and Muhammad are both fallible human beings, this does not mean they are not great humans, but being great does not make one infallible.
That’s my point of view as a liberal.

I agree to what I have colored in magenta, please.
Do other Bahai people also believe Bahaullah to be a fallible man, please?

Regards

 

[Vinayaka]

"I believe he meant it as a literal example ... something factual to illustrate his point about something vaguely spiritual."
I agree with one here.
The first part of the metal copper having become metal gold, has to be literal only then the other part would be meaningful.

Regards

I think it just shows how poor the understanding of science was at that time, and in that place. Religious leaders have been known not to be up on their science. Not just religious leaders, but anyone not privy to current knowledge. Three hundred years ago, would anyone have predicted flight? There was a lot of superstition. Now we know that metals don't spontaneously change. Back then, people thought incorrectly about all sorts of things. Of course, in most situations, later followers just easily admit that it was wrong. In this case that's difficult.

 

[paarsurrey]

Depends on what you mean.

You can mix tin and copper to make bronze. But bronze is a mixture, not a separate element.

Copper, Mercury, and Gold are chemical elements. You cannot make one from the other using only chemical processes.

It *is* possible to make Gold from Mercury using nuclear processes, but the results tend to be radioactive and the quantities made very small.

But making Gold from Copper isn't going to happen via our current nuclear technology either.

No, simply burying or waiting will not convert copper to gold.

Thanks for this information.
Bahaullah did make a mistake to use this analogy. Right, please?
Regards

 

[Polymath257]

Thanks for this information.
Bahaullah did make a mistake to use this analogy. Right, please?
Regards

Analogies are always imperfect. He was physically wrong: copper metal does not convert to gold metal. If, instead, he was talking metaphorically, then it may be the case that a base person (copper) could convert to a more sophisticated (gold) person.

 

[danieldemol]

I agree to what I have colored in magenta, please.
Do other Bahai people also believe Bahaullah to be a fallible man, please?

Regards

No, that is why I identify as liberal

 

[paarsurrey]

I think it just shows how poor the understanding of science was at that time, and in that place. Religious leaders have been known not to be up on their science. Not just religious leaders, but anyone not privy to current knowledge. Three hundred years ago, would anyone have predicted flight? There was a lot of superstition. Now we know that metals don't spontaneously change. Back then, people thought incorrectly about all sorts of things. Of course, in most situations, later followers just easily admit that it was wrong. In this case that's difficult.

I can understand that for the Bahaism people it becomes difficult to admit that Bahaullah was wrong here and he did make a mistake, as this quote is from Kitab-i-Iqan or the Book of Certitude, their most authentic book.

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

No, that is why I identify as liberal

Thanks friend danieldemol .

Regards

 

[Vinayaka]

I can understand that for the Bahaism people it becomes difficult to admit that Bahaullah was wrong here and he did make a mistake, as this quote is from Kitab-i-Iqan or the Book of Certitude, their most authentic book.

Regards

In my view it shouldn't be hard at all. But then again, I could be wrong. (See what i did there?)

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Good luck using this to convert copper to gold.

Copper has 29 protons and 34 or 35 neutrons. Gold has 79 protons and 118 neutrons. Accelerators don't work like that.

Personally I have no wish to.

I can not say what tye future may find. I just know there is a wisdom in those words far beyond our current understandings.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

"Whoso doubteth Our power, let him ask the Lord his God, that He may disclose unto him the secret, and assure him of its truth."

I agree to what I have colored in magenta, please.
Do other Bahai people also believe Bahaullah to be a fallible man, please?

Regards

No.

Regards Tony.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Please provide a scientific reference changing copper to gold.

It can. I already gave a link to wikipedia about transmutation. Anyone with some knowledge of chemistry would know it is possible. It is done through a nuclear process. It is expensive though. It will be more costly than the gold itself. But it is possible, and it is done! Just Google it, and you will know.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Thanks for this information.
Bahaullah did make a mistake to use this analogy. Right, please?
Regards

No.

That we do not yet understand is the point.

Regards Tony

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Good luck using this to convert copper to gold.

Copper has 29 protons and 34 or 35 neutrons. Gold has 79 protons and 118 neutrons. Accelerators don't work like that.

Big bang may be a good example. I quote wiki:

The Big Bang is thought to be the origin of the hydrogen (including all deuterium) and helium in the universe.

So, which one is easier to happen? Gold come to existence from hydrogen and helium, or gold from copper?
At the moment big bang happened even atoms did not exist.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

In my view it shouldn't be hard at all. But then again, I could be wrong. (See what i did there?)

I am also wrong often, that is very easy to admit.

Whereas the Bab and Baha'u'llah, Muhammad and all the Mesengers are not and can not be wrong.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

I am also wrong often, that is very easy to admit.

Whereas the Bab and Baha'u'llah, Muhammad and all the Mesengers are not and can not be wrong.

I am also wrong often, that is very easy to admit.

But not about this particular topic, obviously.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

But not about this particular topic, obviously.

What is obvious to some, is not to others.

That is life.

Regards Tony

 

[dybmh]

The question about "metal copper becoming metal gold" is, did it happen in the past period or in the time when Bahaullah was alive?

The argument is only valid if it had happened in the past. Right, please?

Regards

I don't know my friend...

There is a copper alloy which is very similar in appearance to gold.

Maybe that's a way to approach it?