Is it wrong to advocate homosexuality as a sin?

[Jeremiah]

According to God,sins are harmful.
He allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure).
[Al-Qur'an.7:157]
As you don't believe in that.you probably need to check it yourself.
But first

Why should the wrong things be lawful ?
In many countries Homosexuality is not lawful,same people who speak against these laws of these countries do agree to the laws that forbid incest for example and also speak agianst it, ignoring their own "freedom principals"
Laws regarding incest - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Do you (Any body who thinks that homosexuality should not be a sin) think that incest should be lawful ? Just like those who practise it think, or do you think it should remain unlawful ?.

"As you don't believe in that.you probably need to check it yourself.
But first"

I was not talking about your book. I was talking about freedom of speech in the United States. Simply because something is allowable via law that does mean it right.

"Do you (Any body who thinks that homosexuality should not be a sin) think that incest should be lawful ? Just like those who practise it think, or do you think it should remain unlawful ?."

This thread is about homosexuality. If you want to start your own thread about incest then go do it.

 

[TheKnight]

You defiantly support the latter also. Right here: "I believe that it is wrong for a person to participate in any act of forbidden sex"

No. I don't support the latter. It is not a sin to be a homosexual in my opinion, only a sin to participate in homosexual sex. The two are different things.

You tell a youth that homosexual sex is forbidden then they are going to assume the urge is also wrong. They are going to grow to hate themselves with that mentally. You go around spreading crap like this it is going to have a negative impact.

Not always. As I said, I have seen when it hasn't. It simply needs to be done appropriately. The teen has to learn that his/her identity does not revolve around who he/she is attracted to.

Sure you have. At any rate, it is a warped perception. To deny one's own sexual urges for some stupid reason, like this, is silly. And as much as you believe you've seen it I doubt you have seen the full picture. The implications, of such, is vast; it can, and often, darkens one's whole perception of life. I mean why even risk it? Chances are you are going to mess the youth up and for what? For what? There is no good reason to say it is a sin in the first place.

No good reason in your opinion. Just because you disagree does not mean that I am morally wrong for thinking as I do and convincing others to think the same way.

How would you know what effect your words have? On what authority do you speak?

Any fool could see what effect his/her words have. Especially when those words are spoken to close friends that one has had for years. I realize that those friends of mine who do have homosexual urges did at some point feel like society viewed them as less then worthy. However, I can guarantee you (as I have discussed this with them before) that I have not contributed to that feeling. If anything, I've helped them to feel as if they shouldn't give a flying f*ck what other people think about them. It's possible to disagree with someone and not be harmed by what they believe at the same time.

 

[riverfox]

I'm sorry if i went off topic.
You think it's wrong to advocate homosexuality as a sin,because you think it's harmful to the gay youth.
This logic will make you say the same to those who practise incest,but at the same time maybe you think incest is bad,disgusting or a sin .
Freedom of speech in the U.S? ok
Is it wrong to advocate incest as a sin?(As they do in the U.S and the whole world)
Probably you think that not answering my queation is your way out.

 

[Jeremiah]

No. I don't support the latter. It is not a sin to be a homosexual in my opinion, only a sin to participate in homosexual sex. The two are different things.

Not always. As I said, I have seen when it hasn't. It simply needs to be done appropriately. The teen has to learn that his/her identity does not revolve around who he/she is attracted to.

No good reason in your opinion. Just because you disagree does not mean that I am morally wrong for thinking as I do and convincing others to think the same way.

Any fool could see what effect his/her words have. Especially when those words are spoken to close friends that one has had for years. I realize that those friends of mine who do have homosexual urges did at some point feel like society viewed them as less then worthy. However, I can guarantee you (as I have discussed this with them before) that I have not contributed to that feeling. If anything, I've helped them to feel as if they shouldn't give a flying f*ck what other people think about them. It's possible to disagree with someone and not be harmed by what they believe at the same time.

"No good reason in your opinion."

Well then give me a good reason. Let's hear it? Is all you got is because God said so? Because that is a very thoughtless reason.

"Any fool could see what effect his/her words have."

Any fool can think that. But people are very complex and very hard to understand. It may be impossible to know the full extent of the impact you make on others.

" Especially when those words are spoken to close friends that one has had for years."

O you have homosexual friends; how cute. I have many homo friends also. Some very very close, if catch my meaning.

 

[TheKnight]

Well then give me a good reason. Let's hear it? Is all you got is because God said so? Because that is a very thoughtless reason.

It IS a good reason to me. It may not be a good reason to you, but it IS a good reason to me that the Bible says so. That being the case, it would be inappropriate for you to tell me I am morally wrong for trying to convince others of my opinoin.

Any fool can think that. But people are very complex and very hard to understand. It may be impossible to know the full extent of the impact you make on others.

This is true.

 

[Jeremiah]

I am morally wrong for trying to convince others of my opinion.

LOL, I couldn't resist.

 

[Jeremiah]

It IS a good reason to me. It may not be a good reason to you, but it IS a good reason to me that the Bible says so. That being the case, it would be inappropriate for you to tell me I am morally wrong for trying to convince others of my opinoin.


This is true.

On a serious note..

"the Bible says so"

It's an answer that denies thought. But on that note, Bible says so, that brings us back to this:

I am sure there are many things in the Bible you disregard, as do many people, on many passages in the Bible. But no, this one get special attention. I mean what about the part where it say they should be put to death? Why are you not killing homosexuals?

"That being the case"

How is it inappropriate for me to voice my opinion on what I think is wrong but not so for you? Honestly, where did you come up with that?

 

[slave2six]

I think it is wrong to advocate homosexuality as a sin.

I suppose that depends on what the consequences of sin might be. Personally, I think the entire concept of sin is merely a tool used by religion to enslave the masses. There is so much about our natural state that religious people call "sin" that is in fact simple biology in action. The whole notion of "sin" is absurd.

 

[TheKnight]

"the Bible says so"

It's an answer that denies thought. But on that note, Bible says so, that brings us back to this:

Denies thought to the person who doesn't believe in it.

I believe in the Bible as a whole. I DON'T pay special attention to homosexuality. It simply happens to be the subject-matter of this thread. If this were a thread on pre-marital sex, or incest, or pedophilia, I'd be saying the same thing.

How is it inappropriate for me to voice my opinion on what I think is wrong but not so for you? Honestly, where did you come up with that?

It's not. I'm glad that you see my point. In essence you are saying "it is wrong for you to voice your opinion on what you think is wrong but it isn't for me." To say it is wrong for me to tell others that it's wrong to participate in homosexual sex is doing that which you are calling wrong. It's telling someone else that it's wrong to try and convince another person of their opinion.

That's the only reason I responded to this thread. Because of the hypocrisy of it. You tell me it's wrong to tell someone else that something is wrong...Doesn't that also make you wrong for doing the same to me?

 

[slave2six]

I believe that it is wrong for a person to participate in any act of forbidden sex.

In the religion in which I was raised, it was immoral to have sex unless you were in the "Missionary Position." They forbade oral sex or even back-door sex. Totally stupid.

Who is to say what type of sex is forbidden? Should we persecute people who prefer to have sex in the shower or a woman who actually likes anal sex?

It's nobody's damned business what kind of sex two people engage in. If they love each other and are not harming anyone, what's the big deal?

 

[TheKnight]

In the religion in which I was raised, it was immoral to have sex unless you were in the "Missionary Position." They forbade oral sex or even back-door sex. Totally stupid.

Who is to say what type of sex is forbidden? Should we persecute people who prefer to have sex in the shower or a woman who actually likes anal sex?

It's nobody's damned business what kind of sex two people engage in. If they love each other and are not harming anyone, what's the big deal?

I agree 100%! I said that I believe a certain thing. What is the purpose of your response then? I never said anything about forcing others to do/not do what I want them to. Nor did I say anything about legislating my opinion.

 

[slave2six]

Homosexual sex is wrong because God said in the Bible that it is. Those who believe in the Bible believe that it is wrong.

The Bible also says that you must stone prostitutes and if the prostitute is the daughter of a priest you are to burn her. It also says that slavery is perfectly acceptable. Then there's all that stuff about stoning kids who disrespect their parents or anyone who shows disrespect to a judge (even if the parent of judge is a complete <invective>). So how can you pick and choose like this? It's got to be all or nothing.

 

[TheKnight]

The Bible also says that you must stone prostitutes and if the prostitute is the daughter of a priest you are to burn her. It also says that slavery is perfectly acceptable. Then there's all that stuff about stoning kids who disrespect their parents or anyone who shows disrespect to a judge (even if the parent of judge is a complete <invective>). So how can you pick and choose like this? It's got to be all or nothing.

The Bible says in Deuteronomy 17:11 that "According to the law which they shall teach thee, and according to the judgment which they shall tell thee, thou shalt do; thou shalt not turn aside from the sentence which they shall declare unto thee, to the right hand, nor to the left."

This verse is spoken in reference to the Sanhedrin/Rabbinic authority. That being the case, if the Sanhedrin makes a particular decision, I must abide by that decision. The argument you are making (of my picking and choosing) really only works against Christians. The Bible isn't the only holy book in Judaism (although it is the basis for the others). The Oral Tradition is equally holy. The Bible is the main document, and the Oral Tradition is the holy commentary which accompanies it.

That being said, the Talmud states that one is not allowed to execute a person for a crime without a trial and not without certain requirements being met (hence why I do not go around stoning Biblical law breakers).

Slavery in Judaism is much different then our current conception of slavery. The word for slave in Hebrew (EVeD) is the same as the word for servant (EVeD). A person is not allowed to mistreat an EVeD under Halakha (Jewish law).

For me, it is all or nothing (even though it doesn't have to be). Besides, anyone can plainly see that the Bible (all by itself) is not a worthy legal document. In fact, it's worthless (as a legal body or competent philosophical work) without the accompanying tradition.

For more information on the Jewish Oral Tradition Click Here.

 

[slave2six]

I agree 100%! I said that I believe a certain thing. What is the purpose of your response then? I never said anything about forcing others to do/not do what I want them to. Nor did I say anything about legislating my opinion.

Because you said,

I believe that it is wrong for a person to participate in any act of forbidden sex.

To which I replied

Who is to say what type of sex is forbidden?... It's nobody's damned business what kind of sex two people engage in.

How was this in any way unclear?

 

[Jeremiah]

Denies thought to the person who doesn't believe in it.

I believe in the Bible as a whole. I DON'T pay special attention to homosexuality. It simply happens to be the subject-matter of this thread. If this were a thread on pre-marital sex, or incest, or pedophilia, I'd be saying the same thing.



It's not. I'm glad that you see my point. In essence you are saying "it is wrong for you to voice your opinion on what you think is wrong but it isn't for me." To say it is wrong for me to tell others that it's wrong to participate in homosexual sex is doing that which you are calling wrong. It's telling someone else that it's wrong to try and convince another person of their opinion.

That's the only reason I responded to this thread. Because of the hypocrisy of it. You tell me it's wrong to tell someone else that something is wrong...Doesn't that also make you wrong for doing the same to me?

"Denies thought to the person who doesn't believe in it."

Well then explain the thought behind it.

"I believe in the Bible as a whole."

Then you believe in the killing of homosexuals?

"Doesn't that also make you wrong for doing the same to me"

Expect for my opinion does not drive people to suicide. That's the difference, my opinion is not nearly as harmful as yours. "The bible said so" is a brainless answer and is no reason to go around spreading hurtful misconceptions.

 

[TheKnight]

Because you said,

To which I replied
How was this in any way unclear?

Oh...sorry...my answer to this:

"Who is to say what type of sex is forbidden?... It's nobody's damned business what kind of sex two people engage in."

Well, no one is to say. That's why it's my opinion. In my opinion that kind of sex is forbidden.

 

[slave2six]

The Bible says in Deuteronomy 17:11 that "According to the law which they shall teach thee, and according to the judgment which they shall tell thee, thou shalt do; thou shalt not turn aside from the sentence which they shall declare unto thee, to the right hand, nor to the left."

This verse is spoken in reference to the Sanhedrin/Rabbinic authority. That being the case, if the Sanhedrin makes a particular decision, I must abide by that decision. The argument you are making (of my picking and choosing) really only works against Christians. The Bible isn't the only holy book in Judaism (although it is the basis for the others). The Oral Tradition is equally holy. The Bible is the main document, and the Oral Tradition is the holy commentary which accompanies it.

That being said, the Talmud states that one is not allowed to execute a person for a crime without a trial and not without certain requirements being met (hence why I do not go around stoning Biblical law breakers).

Slavery in Judaism is much different then our current conception of slavery. The word for slave in Hebrew (EVeD) is the same as the word for servant (EVeD). A person is not allowed to mistreat an EVeD under Halakha (Jewish law).

For me, it is all or nothing (even though it doesn't have to be). Besides, anyone can plainly see that the Bible (all by itself) is not a worthy legal document. In fact, it's worthless (as a legal body or competent philosophical work) without the accompanying tradition.

For more information on the Jewish Oral Tradition Click Here.

Ah! I see now. You are unqualified to think for yourself but must follow the traditions no matter how good or bad they might be? And so because you have submitted to the authority of the Sanhedrin you are absolved of personal responsibility? Lots of Nazis tried to claim that at the Nuremberg trials as well. That dog just don't hunt.

As for slavery, give me a break. There is a clear distinction between a slave and a servant all through the Judaic Laws. Don't try to be clever like that. It's intellectually dishonest.

 

[slave2six]

Oh...sorry...my answer to this:

"Who is to say what type of sex is forbidden?... It's nobody's damned business what kind of sex two people engage in."

Well, no one is to say. That's why it's my opinion. In my opinion that kind of sex is forbidden.

I don't understand. How can it be your opinion that this or that act of sex is forbidden? If it's forbidden then it is forbidden by some authority and if you agree with that authority how can you say it is just your opinion?

 

[TheKnight]

Well then explain the thought behind it.

There's no need to. You should be able to see that I would believe in it as true. Saying that believing something because the Bible says so is without thought is akin to saying that because I don't see things like you do, I must have denied thought.

Then you believe in the killing of homosexuals?

I believe in the administration of justice when it is appropriate. If we were to try homosexuals on the basis of Jewish law...I could guarantee that almost 100% of them wouldn't be executed. There are too many factors that would make the person exempt from capital punishment.

Expect for my opinion does not drive people to suicide. That's the difference, my opinion is not nearly as harmful as yours. "The bible said so" is a brainless answer and is no reason to go around spreading hurtful misconceptions.

Please. My opinion has not caused anyone to commit suicide. If someone misunderstands my opinion and as a result kills themselves, then it was their misunderstanding that caused their death. My opinon really isn't all that harmful. I advocate control, not self-loathing. In fact, I'm very pro-"you shouldn't give a **** about what people think". So much so that I'm willing to disagree with myself to promote that attitude. Self-esteem is more important then my idea of morality. That doesn't mean that I will disregard my idea of morality for someone's self-esteem.

 

[slave2six]

"I believe in the Bible as a whole."

Then you believe in the killing of homosexuals?

I don't think it's possible for anyone to believe the Bible as a whole. It's so full of contradictions that to try to believe in it as a whole is like trying to hold onto matter and antimatter at the same time.