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Is Jesus a Mythical Character?

Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
You dont believe in the facts so there is no reason. But here we go. God is the only one who can judge you. To be judged you must stand before God. Wherever God is that is where heaven is as well. SO to be judged all must go to heaven. From there it is decided whether you stay or go to hell. But now youll cop out again with i dont believe because its your only answer. All the stuff I told you is in the bible. I challenge you to contradict me with the bible instead of your usual cop out.
 

Tristesse

Well-Known Member
You dont believe in the facts so there is no reason. But here we go. God is the only one who can judge you. To be judged you must stand before God. Wherever God is that is where heaven is as well. SO to be judged all must go to heaven. From there it is decided whether you stay or go to hell. But now youll cop out again with i dont believe because its your only answer. All the stuff I told you is in the bible. I challenge you to contradict me with the bible instead of your usual cop out.

No, those aren't facts, those are your beliefs, or opinions. Facts and beliefs are different, sometimes they can be one in the same, but not in this case.
 

Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
No in your eyes they are "just beliefs" because you are not Christian. In my eyes they are fact because I am Christian. If you do not want to hear a Christians point of view do not ask for it.
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
There is no better explanation for the sources, and the evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of his existence.

See that's just it. I can except his existence. I have no problem with it. I simply don't think he was all that important....especially once you strip away the unproven/unprovable fanciful claims made. Once you do that, yes...you're left with a man named Yeshua... who, as I've said, was most likely another activist possibly not too important enough for contemporaries to write about but none the less important enough to have affected some peoples lives. Truly important to those who buy into the super hero god/man later written in the gospels.

From your comments I know that you haven't read a whole lot on the topic, which is fine, because you also aren't pushing uninformed opinions (as logician and dogsgod are) as if you have.

I have and there is still more for me to read. I do understand the accredited scholars and their opinions. But I have to take them for what they're worth....educated opinions. While I personally don't think a biblical Jesus existed I do hold out for a normal guy who was not a god/man as portrayed by the bible.

Just know that the evidence for his existence is overwhelming enough that EVERY historian studying that period believes he did.

Exactly...
 
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Tristesse

Well-Known Member
No in your eyes they are beliefs because you are not Christian. In my eyes they are fact because I am Christian. Get it?

It doesn't matter what you are, in the broader scheme of things, they are beliefs. I don't care if you believe them to a factual level, they are still beliefs. You believe them to be fact, they are not actual facts.
 

Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
It doesn't matter what you are, in the broader scheme of things, they are beliefs. I don't care if you believe them to a factual level, they are still beliefs. You believe them to be fact, they are not actual facts.

Prove me wrong then.
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
You dont believe in the facts so there is no reason.

You've shown NO facts...just YOUR opinion based on "faith"....

But here we go. God is the only one who can judge you.

Again, you're making unprovable claims based on your feelings. That's not what the thread was about.

To be judged you must stand before God.

Says you and your "holy book"...but this "opinion" is not shared by "EVERYONE"...

But now youll cop out again with i dont believe because its your only answer.

I say what I say because you're making claims that you nor anyone can prove.

All the stuff I told you is in the bible. I challenge you to contradict me with the bible instead of your usual cop out.

Your bible has it's own set of problems. It contradicts it's self. It makes fanciful, unprovable claims......Now tell me why I should except a book that has been pieced together and is incorrect on a lot of levels?????....why because you do????:sarcastic
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
See that's just it. I can except his existence. I have no problem with it. I simply don't think he was all that important....especially once you strip away the unproven/unprovable fanciful claims made. Once you do that, yes...you're left with a man named Yeshua... who, as I've said, was most likely another activist possibly not too important enough for contemporaries to write about but none the less important enough to have affected some peoples lives.
How important was the leader of the Qumran sect? How important was the Samaritan Prophet? The Egyptian Prophet? The Sadducees were clearly important. Who was the leader of the Sadduccees in 30 CE? You simply and naively over-estimate the likelihood and predictability of historical record, treating 1st century Israel as if it was 21st century New York. Like it or not, the overwhelming majority of "important" people left little or no trace.
 

Oberon

Well-Known Member
See that's just it. I can except his existence. I have no problem with it. I simply don't think he was all that important....especially once you strip away the unproven/unprovable fanciful claims made.
Fine. I happen to think that any man who was pretty much the founder (even unintentionally) of one of the most influential institutions in history is very important from a historical point of view at the very least (much in the same way I think Plato, Socrates, Muhammad, etc, are important historical figures). But if you don't, well that's an opinion your more than entitled to.





I have and there is still more for me to read. I do understand the accredited scholars and their opinions.
I find it hard to believe you have read much of anything in the topic, given your comments on Q, Mark and other topics throughout this thread. Perhaps you can name some of the books/journals you have read?




Exactly...

Yes, ALL of history is a matter of belief. There are still those who deny the holocaust. Now I would certainly say there is more evidence for the holocaust than Jesus, but I would also say that anyone who denies his existence entirely is either almost completely uninformed or very biased or both.
 
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dogsgod

Well-Known Member
Still waiting for evidence that anyone actually read the gospels in the first century. We hear all about how fast Christianity grew yet this evidence draws a blank.

When did people start accepting the gospels as accounts of actual events?

What is the first known attestation to the gospels?
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
How important was the leader of the Qumran sect? How important was the Samaritan Prophet? The Egyptian Prophet? The Sadducees were clearly important. Who was the leader of the Sadduccees in 30 CE? You simply and naively over-estimate the likelihood and predictability of historical record, treating 1st century Israel as if it was 21st century New York. Like it or not, the overwhelming majority of "important" people left little or no trace.

Thank you for your opinion but I stand by the statement. I'm going as far as to acknowledge a 1st century man named Yeshua. I'm acknowledging him as one who may have bucked the system, was out spoken against the government and may have had a following but the biblical description, IMO, is a bit of a stretch. I think what has been attributed to this 1st century rebel has been hyped up. There's no way to prove them, so what do we do with them....take them on "blind faith"?....I think we set aside the fanciful claims and examine what's left.....and ordinary man. I don't think THAT Jesus, (the biblical one) ever existed.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
See that's just it. I can except his existence. I have no problem with it. I simply don't think he was all that important....especially once you strip away the unproven/unprovable fanciful claims made.
How important was the leader of the Qumran sect? How important was the Samaritan Prophet? The Egyptian Prophet? The Sadducees were clearly important. Who was the leader of the Sadduccees in 30 CE? You simply and naively over-estimate the likelihood and predictability of historical record, treating 1st century Israel as if it was 21st century New York. Like it or not, the overwhelming majority of "important" people left little or no trace.
Thank you for your opinion but I stand by the statement.
Stand where you wish. The point is that willfully ignorant mythicists like logician who sputter their argument from absence demonstrate a severe poverty of reason and perspective.

I'm going as far as to acknowledge a 1st century man named Yeshua. I'm acknowledging him as one who may have bucked the system, was out spoken against the government and may have had a following but the biblical description, IMO, is a bit of a stretch.
The argument for historicity suggests nothing more.
 

logician

Well-Known Member
Thank you for your opinion but I stand by the statement. I'm going as far as to acknowledge a 1st century man named Yeshua. I'm acknowledging him as one who may have bucked the system, was out spoken against the government and may have had a following but the biblical description, IMO, is a bit of a stretch. I think what has been attributed to this 1st century rebel has been hyped up. There's no way to prove them, so what do we do with them....take them on "blind faith"?....I think we set aside the fanciful claims and examine what's left.....and ordinary man. I don't think THAT Jesus, (the biblical one) ever existed.


That's been my point all along, that the BIBLICAL Jesus almost by definition could not have existed unless you believe in miracles etc. Of course, I don't think the gospels are based upon the writings about a man at all, but are strictly midrash and retelling of preexistent nyth.
 

Oberon

Well-Known Member
Of course, I don't think the gospels are based upon the writings about a man at all, but are strictly midrash and retelling of preexistent nyth.
What midrashim have you read? What SPECIFIC texts can you compare to the gospels, to show they use pre-existent myth?
 

Oberon

Well-Known Member
Still waiting for evidence that anyone actually read the gospels in the first century. We hear all about how fast Christianity grew yet this evidence draws a blank.

I have already explained that the very fact they were copied so widely indicates they had to have been read. Your question shows that you don't know anything about textual stability or how texts survived at all.

As for early attestation that the gospels were read, we have:

I Clement (c. 95-6): Clement cites both the Old Testament and New (Matthew and Luke) using phrases like he graphe legei. He also cites other traditions concerning Jesus, indicating the existence of traditions that are lost to us, but which existed in the first century (more evidence of oral traditions).

Ignatius of Antioch (died in the early second century, active in the first): Not only does Ignatius show an awareness of Paul, he also cites Jesus traditions, some of which are from Matthew and John. He also may have known Luke (see Smyrn iii 1-2).

The Didache (either late first century or early 2nd): The didache quotes from Matthew, as well as other traditions.

Papias (active in 1st and 2nd century): speaks of three out of the four gospels, not to mention oral traditions concerning Jesus.

Epistle of Barnabas (probably early 2nd century, possibly earlier): the author was acquainted with the gospel of Matthew.

Polycarp of Smyrna (active 1st and early 2nd century): Has about 100 quotations from the NT.

Shepard of Hermas (either late 1st or early 2nd century): shows an awareness of John and at least one of the synoptics


In other words, there is plenty of evidence from other texts, in addition to the widespread copying of NT manuscripts (and we actually possess 2nd century pieces of the gospel texts), that the gospels were used widely from the beginning.
 
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Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
That's been my point all along, that the BIBLICAL Jesus almost by definition could not have existed unless you believe in miracles etc. Of course, I don't think the gospels are based upon the writings about a man at all, but are strictly midrash and retelling of preexistent nyth.

Ok I think the general consensus is that there was a man in history which most of you view as Jesus. Just maybe not the one out of the bible correct? The difference is this. You cannot believe in Jesus (of the bible) unless you accept the fact miracles did happen, that he was truly Divine. If you accept that it is what makes you Christian. For a atheist to pose the question did Jesus (of the bible) exist and then try to differentiate makes no sense. If you do not believe in God, how can you search for his Divinity, because even if you found it you dont believe in it, so therefore in your opinion it doesnt exist, which you then claim it as fact rofl. Does anyone else see the redundancy in this?
 

Tristesse

Well-Known Member
Ok I think the general consensus is that there was a man in history which most of you view as Jesus. Just maybe not the one out of the bible correct? The difference is this. You cannot believe in Jesus (of the bible) unless you accept the fact miracles did happen, that he was truly Divine. If you accept that it is what makes you Christian. For a atheist to pose the question did Jesus (of the bible) exist and then try to differentiate makes no sense. If you do not believe in God, how can you search for his Divinity, because even if you found it you dont believe in it, so therefore in your opinion it doesnt exist, which you then claim it as fact rofl. Does anyone else see the redundancy in this?

I'm confused, you said if an atheist found jesus' divinity, he wouldn't believe it. But if he found it, he would have no option but to believe it, unless his senses were fooling him somehow.
 

Oberon

Well-Known Member
Ok I think the general consensus is that there was a man in history which most of you view as Jesus. Just maybe not the one out of the bible correct? The difference is this. You cannot believe in Jesus (of the bible) unless you accept the fact miracles did happen, that he was truly Divine.
I am not an atheist, but I am not a christian either. However, I believe that the gospels attempted to write the history of Jesus as they saw it. This including grafting theology onto historical events. I also believe that while Jesus did perform "healings" and various actions of his were thought to be miracles, they were not. In other words, the gospels (like other ancient histories) do not rely on the same standards that modern history does. This does not mean they should be completely discounted, but it also doesn't mean they should be completely accepted either. The only reason for completely accepting them is faith (not historical research). Likewise, the only reason for completely rejecting them is bias (not historical research).
 

Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
The only reason for completely accepting them is faith (not historical research).


That is my point. So why would any atheist who does not believe in Jesus Divinity search for historical proof of Divinity? Its a catch 22.
 
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