Is Jesus Christ the True God?

[dybmh]

To love God is to keep his commands!

Agreed. Let's list the commandments up to this point.

1. Populate the earth ( Gen 1:28 )
2. Subdue the earth ( Gen 1:28 )
3. Serve and guard the garden ( Gen 2:15 )
4. Do not eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, because on the day you eat from it you shall surely die ( Gen 2:16-17 )
5. It's good to have a help-mate ( Gen 2:18 )
6. Leave your father and mother and cleave to your wife ( Gen 2:24 )

Adam the first perfect man with his gift of "Free Will" made a choice to freely disobey God. Clearly Adam did not love God!

Did he disobey, or did he accept the mission?

There is no commandment to love God at this point. The closest is the last commandment, cleaving and becoming one flesh. Adam was commanded to love Eve? And technically, he was commanded to leave his father to do so? What is death? Isn't that leaving the garden, leaving his father aka God? How can a person fill the earth and subdue it in the garden? If having a help-mate is good, losing the help-mate is bad? Eve ate from the tree, she will surely die, meaning, she's leaving the garden?

All of these things should be considered before judging Adam's disobedience. From my point of view, he both disobeyed and accepted simultaneously. He accepted death for what it was and accepted the mission on earth. Accepting required disobedience. Just in that one specific circumstance. And as a bonus, the serpent is trapped on the ground, and humans have been granted the power to crush the head of its seed. None of this is without consequences of course. That would send the wrong message.

if God did not create perfectly, he would not himself be perfect and thus not be God!

Agreed. From my perspective Adam's choice *was* perfect in that time at that place.

So God is creating, and sees that it is good. Seeing it's good requires that something else is not good. Something that isn't seen, but it's known to exist. God knows it, understands it, and using God's wisdom develops a plan to trap it and make it into something good. Thus all of creation is "very good" ( Gen 1:31 ). So God's creation was perfect, and is perfect, but that perfection requires imperfection.

Disobedience and acceptance simultaneously.... Perfection and imperfection simultaneously... masculine and feminine simultaneously... good and evil simultaneously...

Who else but God could create something so magnificent and so perfect?

Big picture? Perfection is not intended, it's not required. The Jewish people were commanded to love God with all our heart, all our soul, and all our attributes ( literal translation of middot ). All means all, and that includes our imperfections too. The Christian bible states it a little bit differently, of course. But the first step in loving God wih all the heart, mind, and soul, is accepting the heart, mind, and soul for what it is. It is both perfect and imperfect simultaneously. Knowing this requires a great big healthy portion from the Tree of Knowledge of good-and-evil. And that knowledge is required in order to love with all the heart, soul, and mind.

 

[metis]

Look the whole doctrine of the Trinity doesn't make senes. But it's what your church teaches.

I believe it does make sense, but what I cannot say is that it's accurate. Again, the key is the authors' use of "essence". Had the originals been written in modern day English, I tend to think the rendering would likely be quite different.

I could encourage you to read certain sources, but that's not likely to happen. Not that this somehow makes me right, I took Catholic theology classes in my undergrad studies even though I wasn't Catholic, and I have also taught Catholic theology to adults for 15 years now.

BTW, ya gotta remember that in Judaism, there was much controversy dealing with the influence of Hellenization that was very much dreaded. The influence of the ancient Greek scholars back then was very potent, and here we are over 2000 years later talking about Aristotle, Plato, Socrates, etc. as if they existed maybe over the last century or so.

 

[Dogknox20]

Look the whole doctrine of the Trinity doesn't make sense. But it's what your church teaches.

IndigoChild5559 it's what Christians believe!
Thomas was an apostle of Jesus he is a Christian!

28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

Today "Christians are blessed" they believe as the first Christians believed!

 

[Dogknox20]

Agreed. Let's list the commandments up to this point.

1. Populate the earth ( Gen 1:28 )
2. Subdue the earth ( Gen 1:28 )
3. Serve and guard the garden ( Gen 2:15 )
4. Do not eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, because on the day you eat from it you shall surely die ( Gen 2:16-17 )
5. It's good to have a help-mate ( Gen 2:18 )
6. Leave your father and mother and cleave to your wife ( Gen 2:24 )

Did he disobey, or did he accept the mission?

There is no commandment to love God at this point. The closest is the last commandment, cleaving and becoming one flesh. Adam was commanded to love Eve? And technically, he was commanded to leave his father to do so? What is death? Isn't that leaving the garden, leaving his father aka God? How can a person fill the earth and subdue it in the garden? If having a help-mate is good, losing the help-mate is bad? Eve ate from the tree, she will surely die, meaning, she's leaving the garden?

All of these things should be considered before judging Adam's disobedience. From my point of view, he both disobeyed and accepted simultaneously. He accepted death for what it was and accepted the mission on earth. Accepting required disobedience. Just in that one specific circumstance. And as a bonus, the serpent is trapped on the ground, and humans have been granted the power to crush the head of its seed. None of this is without consequences of course. That would send the wrong message.


Agreed. From my perspective Adam's choice *was* perfect in that time at that place.

So God is creating, and sees that it is good. Seeing it's good requires that something else is not good. Something that isn't seen, but it's known to exist. God knows it, understands it, and using God's wisdom develops a plan to trap it and make it into something good. Thus all of creation is "very good" ( Gen 1:31 ). So God's creation was perfect, and is perfect, but that perfection requires imperfection.

Disobedience and acceptance simultaneously.... Perfection and imperfection simultaneously... masculine and feminine simultaneously... good and evil simultaneously...

Who else but God could create something so magnificent and so perfect?

Big picture? Perfection is not intended, it's not required. The Jewish people were commanded to love God with all our heart, all our soul, and all our attributes ( literal translation of middot ). All means all, and that includes our imperfections too. The Christian bible states it a little bit differently, of course. But the first step in loving God wih all the heart, mind, and soul, is accepting the heart, mind, and soul for what it is. It is both perfect and imperfect simultaneously. Knowing this requires a great big healthy portion from the Tree of Knowledge of good-and-evil. And that knowledge is required in order to love with all the heart, soul, and mind.

16 And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”

1 John 5:3
In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,

dybmh Adam "Commanded Eve don't touch the tree"! God did not tell Adam not to touch the tree. He commanded Adam not to eat from the tree!
Eve said, "she can't touch the tree" she must have gotten this Command from Adam! Clearly, she did not love Adam because she did not heed his Command "Don't even touch the stinking tree"! Adam....
Adam did not love Eve he was right there when the Snake was tempting her..... ALL...

dybmh all know snakes are dangerous, all know it is the man's job to protect the family! Adam did nothing he did not protect Eve his wife!!

2 The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’”
4 “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.

 

[Dogknox20]

Agreed. Let's list the commandments up to this point.

1. Populate the earth ( Gen 1:28 )
2. Subdue the earth ( Gen 1:28 )
3. Serve and guard the garden ( Gen 2:15 )
4. Do not eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, because on the day you eat from it you shall surely die ( Gen 2:16-17 )
5. It's good to have a help-mate ( Gen 2:18 )
6. Leave your father and mother and cleave to your wife ( Gen 2:24 )

Did he disobey, or did he accept the mission?

There is no commandment to love God at this point. The closest is the last commandment, cleaving and becoming one flesh. Adam was commanded to love Eve? And technically, he was commanded to leave his father to do so? What is death? Isn't that leaving the garden, leaving his father aka God? How can a person fill the earth and subdue it in the garden? If having a help-mate is good, losing the help-mate is bad? Eve ate from the tree, she will surely die, meaning, she's leaving the garden?

All of these things should be considered before judging Adam's disobedience. From my point of view, he both disobeyed and accepted simultaneously. He accepted death for what it was and accepted the mission on earth. Accepting required disobedience. Just in that one specific circumstance. And as a bonus, the serpent is trapped on the ground, and humans have been granted the power to crush the head of its seed. None of this is without consequences of course. That would send the wrong message.


Agreed. From my perspective Adam's choice *was* perfect in that time at that place.

So God is creating, and sees that it is good. Seeing it's good requires that something else is not good. Something that isn't seen, but it's known to exist. God knows it, understands it, and using God's wisdom develops a plan to trap it and make it into something good. Thus all of creation is "very good" ( Gen 1:31 ). So God's creation was perfect, and is perfect, but that perfection requires imperfection.

Disobedience and acceptance simultaneously.... Perfection and imperfection simultaneously... masculine and feminine simultaneously... good and evil simultaneously...

Who else but God could create something so magnificent and so perfect?

Big picture? Perfection is not intended, it's not required. The Jewish people were commanded to love God with all our heart, all our soul, and all our attributes ( literal translation of middot ). All means all, and that includes our imperfections too. The Christian bible states it a little bit differently, of course. But the first step in loving God wih all the heart, mind, and soul, is accepting the heart, mind, and soul for what it is. It is both perfect and imperfect simultaneously. Knowing this requires a great big healthy portion from the Tree of Knowledge of good-and-evil. And that knowledge is required in order to love with all the heart, soul, and mind.

.
I continue from post 244 (above)

I have to point out.... "The Tree Of knowledge of Good and Evil" was not what Adam and Eve needed to live! A baby cannot sin, a young child cannot sin, an animal cannot sin; Pigs' chickens' cows dogs' cats etc cannot sin because all of these do not know what sin is! When....

dybmh when Adam and Eve ate, they saw they were naked, they understood what sin was!
7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.

You said... And that knowledge is required in order to love with all the heart, soul, and mind...
I reply: "The Tree Of knowledge of Good and Evil" is Not Required to love! A child loves her parents without any knowledge of what sin is!

Man was created perfect... Adam brought corruption into God' Perfect creation. Until Adam freely sinned there was No Sin in creation! Think......
God made us in his image.... "God is love" only man can love... Pigs' chickens' cows dogs' cats snakes' snails etc are not made in God image they cannot love!
To love we need "Freewill", God could make us love but then our love would not be true love! To make man in his image he had to give us freewill! We needed to ability to love freely! God must have understood with this freedom there would be some men that would make a choice NOT to love! God is perfect: To give us the ability to love he had to give us freewill!

Adam & Eve choose not to love each other, Adam made a free choice not to love God... To get into heaven you must love they were removed because they were without love! Satan cannot love he has been judged! Satan hates all men because there is a Man sitting on a throne in heaven!

 

[dybmh]

She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.

Good gravey, "who was with her"??? I have read this story hundreds of times and I missed that detail each and every time. Thank you for pointing that out.

But, something doesn't add up. If we fast forward to the confession, what does God say to Adam?

"Because you have listened to the voice of your wife..."
​

Adam is not punished for listening to the serpent. Which makes it seem like he wasn't there while the serpent was tempting Eve.

Here's what I have for Gen 3:4-6.

3:4
And the serpent said to the woman, surely you shall not die;
3:5
For God knows that in the day you eat of it, then your eyes shall be opened, and you shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
3:6
And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit, and ate, and gave also to her husband with her; and he ate.
​

"And when"? Does your version have that? That seems as if time has passed? The serpent isn't there, and maybe Adam is with her now?

 

[pearl]

If you attend mass and participate, you pray to Jesus. I've quoted two parts of the mass so far that are Jesus.

But you have placed your own interpretation opposing the official teaching of the Church. You have only proven your own arrogance, which surprises me. Once again, in the Mass, worship is directed to the Father, never the Son.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

But you have placed your own interpretation opposing the official teaching of the Church. You have only proven your own arrogance, which surprises me. Once again, in the Mass, worship is directed to the Father, never the Son.

I quoted to you from a catholic website. I think you are failing to recognize that your personal view is NOT the teaching of the Catholic church. And I gave you three examples of worshiping Jesus during Mass. So we're done. You can reply if you want, but I will no longer respond.

 

[pearl]

I quoted to you from a catholic website.

And I quoted from the 'official' Catholic website, the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops.

The Eucharistic Prayers make clear that these prayers are offered, not to Christ, but to the Father. It is worship offered to the Father by Christ as it was at the moment of his passion, death and resurrection, but now it is offered through the priest acting in the person of Christ, and it is offered as well by all of the baptized, who are part of Christ's Body, the Church. This is the action of Christ's Body, the Church at Mass.

Liturgy of the Eucharist | USCCB

Unfortunately, there exist many so-called 'Catholic' sites, well meaning, but not always well informed as to any 'official' position.

 

[muhammad_isa]

And I quoted from the 'official' Catholic website, the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops.

The Eucharistic Prayers make clear that these prayers are offered, not to Christ, but to the Father. It is worship offered to the Father by Christ as it was at the moment of his passion, death and resurrection, but now it is offered through the priest acting in the person of Christ, and it is offered as well by all of the baptized, who are part of Christ's Body, the Church. This is the action of Christ's Body, the Church at Mass.

Liturgy of the Eucharist | USCCB

..but that doesn't really make sense though, does it?
Why offer prayers to "the Father", and not to Christ?
If God is a trinity, why not offer prayers to the Holy Trinity?

 

[Dogknox20]

Good gravey, "who was with her"??? I have read this story hundreds of times and I missed that detail each and every time. Thank you for pointing that out.

But, something doesn't add up. If we fast forward to the confession, what does God say to Adam?

"Because you have listened to the voice of your wife..."
​

Adam is not punished for listening to the serpent. Which makes it seem like he wasn't there while the serpent was tempting Eve.

Here's what I have for Gen 3:4-6.

3:4
And the serpent said to the woman, surely you shall not die;
3:5
For God knows that in the day you eat of it, then your eyes shall be opened, and you shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
3:6
And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit, and ate, and gave also to her husband with her; and he ate.
​

"And when"? Does your version have that? That seems as if time has passed? The serpent isn't there, and maybe Adam is with her now?

.
dybmh hello I hope you are well...

12 The man said, “The woman you put here with me—she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it.”

dybmh God can put them together, but he cannot make them love each other! If he did then their love would not be true love!

13 Then the Lord God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?”
The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”
14 So the Lord God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this,

It is clear (above) Eve followed the suggestion of Satan; she was tempted! She disobeyed her husband and her God! She "Touched" & she "Ate"!

Pointing out "And when" changes little! She touched and she disobeyed her husband; She ate and disobeyed God!
Her husband blames his wife (The Woman) you put here with me... I did not take it! He put his wife above God' Commands!

17 To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’

God is Love. All who do not love will not enter paradise! Both Adam and Eve were thus removed from Paradise!
Love is always putting the other first! Love is letting go of self for another! God loved us into creation. He sent his only son to save us from death! The Second.....

dybmh the second Adam, the second perfect man does the will of God! He loves God!
Matthew 26:39
Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.”

 

[Dogknox20]

..but that doesn't really make sense though, does it?
Why offer prayers to "the Father", and not to Christ?
If God is a trinity, why not offer prayers to the Holy Trinity?

.
Jesus is The King! All who gain favor of the King have the king's ear! Prayers to Jesus are prayers to God!
Jesus is God!
The Father is God!
The Holy Spirit is God!

When we immerse someone into the Body of Jesus, we use the Authority of God he gave to us... We speak in his name with his authority.

In the Name of the Father
In the name of the Son
In the Name of the Holy Spirit.. In Gods name I baptizes you!

LOOK
Then Peter said, 47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” 48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.

Peter was speaking for Jesus with all of Jesus' authority... Representing Jesus, he Ordered them to immense these people into God' holy body!

Jesus wanted them baptized so Peter ordered it done!

 

[pearl]

If God is a trinity, why not offer prayers to the Holy Trinity?

When the Church speaks of God alone, it is always the Father, otherwise it is God the Son, but the Son alone is not addressed as God alone.

If God is a trinity, why not offer prayers to the Holy Trinity?

Mostly in the form of contemplation of the Trinity. Yes.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

And I quoted from the 'official' Catholic website, the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops.

The Eucharistic Prayers make clear that these prayers are offered, not to Christ, but to the Father. It is worship offered to the Father by Christ as it was at the moment of his passion, death and resurrection, but now it is offered through the priest acting in the person of Christ, and it is offered as well by all of the baptized, who are part of Christ's Body, the Church. This is the action of Christ's Body, the Church at Mass.

Liturgy of the Eucharist | USCCB

Unfortunately, there exist many so-called 'Catholic' sites, well meaning, but not always well informed as to any 'official' position.

I must have missed it. What is the exact quote from the USCCB that says Catholics are not to worship Jesus or specifically says to worship ONLY the Father? It doesn't do any good to quote where it says you worship the Father. I k now you do. I'm saying you worship Jesus as well, which basically means giving him adoration as a deity.

Did you ever address Eucharistic Adoration? Who is being worshiped?

 

[metis]

I wish some people would maybe actually go to a mass at a Catholic Church and listen for themselves.

Again, "essence" is the key to understanding the Trinity from a Catholic point of view, whereas Jesus and the Holy Spirit are of the "essence" of God the Father. Numerous times within the Gospels Jesus differentiates himself from the Father in some matter, and Jesus even calls God "my Father" and prays to his Father as we would.

 

[pearl]

I must have missed it. What is the exact quote from the USCCB that says Catholics are not to worship Jesus or specifically says to worship ONLY the Father?

The Eucharistic Prayers make clear that these prayers are offered, not to Christ, but to the Father. It is worship offered to the Father by Christ as it was at the moment of his passion, death and resurrection, but now it is offered through the priest acting in the person of Christ, and it is offered as well by all of the baptized, who are part of Christ's Body, the Church. This is the action of Christ's Body, the Church at Mass.

The priest offers the Eucharistic Prayer in the first person plural, for example, "Therefore, O Lord, we humbly implore you…" This "we" signifies that all the baptized present at the Eucharistic celebration make the sacrificial offering in union with Christ, and pray the Eucharistic Prayer in union with him. And what is most important, we do not offer Christ alone; we are called to offer ourselves, our lives, our individual efforts to grow more like Christ and our efforts as a community of believers to spread God's Word and to serve God's people, to the Father in union with Christ through the hands of the priest. Most wonderful of all, although our offering is in itself imperfect, joined with the offering of Christ it becomes perfect praise and thanksgiving to the Father.
Liturgy of the Eucharist | USCCB

Did you ever address Eucharistic Adoration? Who is being worshiped?

Eucharistic Adoration is not part of the Eucharistic liturgy, the Mass.

The importance of Eucharistic Adoration is shown in the fact that the Church has a ritual that regulates it: the Rite of Eucharistic Exposition and Benediction. This is an extension of the adoration of the Blessed Sacrament which occurs in every Mass: "Behold the Lamb of God, behold him who takes away the sins of the world. Blessed are those called to the supper of the Lamb." Exposition of the Blessed Sacrament flows from the sacrifice of the Mass and serves to deepen our hunger for Communion with Christ and the rest of the Church. The Rite concludes with the ordained minister blessing the faithful with the Blessed Sacrament.

I'm saying you worship Jesus as well, which basically means giving him adoration as a deity.

I can only repeat; The object of worship in the Mass is the Father, through the Son in the Spirit.
Now you may consider God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit.

 

[pearl]

If God is a trinity, why not offer prayers to the Holy Trinity?

If I contemplate the Trinity, I toss away the legalistic definition and consider the constant flow.
The Lover, the Beloved and the Love between them. And this trinitarian love comes to me through Grace.

 

[muhammad_isa]

If I contemplate the Trinity, I toss away the legalistic definition and consider the constant flow.
The Lover, the Beloved and the Love between them. And this trinitarian love comes to me through Grace.

It's a pity that the love that so-called Arians had for Jesus was not reciprocated, and Trinitarians showed nothing but contempt for their fellow believers..

..but I guess that didn't suit the aims of an Empire.
It was illegal up to the 18th century in England to denounce the trinity. Old habits die hard.

 

[samtonga43]

..but that doesn't really make sense though, does it?
Why offer prayers to "the Father", and not to Christ?
If God is a trinity, why not offer prayers to the Holy Trinity?

When one offers prayers to God, one IS offering prayers to the God who is Triune.

 

[muhammad_isa]

When one offers prayers to God, one IS offering prayers to the God who is Triune.

We worship who we think that we worship.