Is Jesus God?

[katiemygirl]

"Kolibri, post: 4194544, member: 55852"]All the cross references have been greatly reduced for this revision. There is no conspiracy here.

How convenient! This is deception!. You just don't want to see it. When the word "Lord" refers to Jesus Christ, the New World translators are very careful never to translate it by the name Jehovah because they deny that Jesus is Jehovah. Here are two examples where they do not translate Lord as Jehovah, for reasons that are obvious.

"...nobody can say: ‘Jesus is Lord!’ except by holy spirit" (New World Translation of 1 Cor. 12:3).

"For if you publicly declare...that Jesus is Lord, and exercise faith in your heart that God raised him up from the dead, you will be saved" (New World Translation of Rom. 10:9).

Furthermore, the NWT violates its own rules. Here is what they say in "The Divine Name That Will Endure Forever: 1984, pages 26-27.

"In places where the Christian Greek Scripture writers quote the earlier Hebrew Scriptures, the translator has the right to render the word κυριος (kurios) as ‘Jehovah’ wherever the divine name appeared in the Hebrew original."

Here are examples of the NWT violating their own rules.

"That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." (Phil. 2:10-11, KJV)

These verses are based on Isaiah 45:23. There is no question that Paul had this passage in mind. In Isaiah 45:23 it is JEHOVAH GOD who is speaking,

"I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear" (Isa. 45:23 KJV).

This verse teaches that "UNTO ME" (unto Jehovah, the one true God) every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Paul in Philippians 2:10-11 declares that it is at the name of Jesus that every knee should bow and every tongue should confess.

Isaiah said that every knee would bow to Jehovah God. Paul, referring to this same passage in Isaiah, said that every knee would bow to Jesus Christ.

Paul said in verse 11 that every tongue will someday confess that Jesus is Lord (kurios), that is, everyone will someday acknowledge that Jesus is Jehovah, the true and living and only God! But Jehovah’s Witnesses refuse to translate "Lord" as "Jehovah" even though it is obvious that Jehovah is the One referred to in the context of Isaiah 45:23.

The New World Translation renders it this way.

"and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father." This Bible Translation is eager to translate "Lord" by the name "Jehovah" whenever possible (237 times in the N.T.), but in this case they cannot do it because it would force them to acknowledge that Jesus is Jehovah.

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Here is another example.

"If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious" (1 Peter 2:3).

Bible scholars agree that Peter was borrowing from the language of Psalm 34:8.

"Oh taste and see that the LORD (Jehovah) is good" (KJV).

Compare the Septuagint translation of Psalm 34:8 with the Greek of 1 Peter 2:3. The language used is nearly identical. The word for good or gracious is the same Greek word, crhstoV. "Oh taste and see that the LORD is good (gracious)."

Peter’s point was this. "If you have really tasted that the Lord is good (v.3) then you will desire His Word (v.2)."

In the NWT of 1 Peter 2:3 the translators violate their own rule.

"provided you have tasted that the Lord is kind" (1 Pet. 2:3 New World Translation).

Why did they fail to translate "Lord" (kurios) as "Jehovah"? This is another case where they have chosen not to follow their own rule because the following verses (verses 4-6) make it clear that Peter was referring to the Lord Jesus Christ and the Jehovah’s Witnesses do not want anyone to think that Jesus is Jehovah. They must break their own rule or else they would be denying their own doctrine by calling Christ "Jehovah" and thus affirming His full deity.

You are quoting from a Bible released in 2004 to 'prove' that a quote from 1969/1985 is a lie. To prove something is a lie you have to limit your source material to what was true at the time.

And the 2013 NWT edition?

What? The NWT translation committee was supposed to mindlessly copy any new translation that comes out from now on into infinity? The ruling as you recall was to limit how often the divine name appeared in the Christian Greek Scriptures to what has had precedent in Hebrew Translations, with the one exception in 1 Cor 7:17. That rule never stated that all new occurrences would mindlessly be transferred to the NWT. Only that what would be found would almost invariably have precedent. This inconsistency argument holds no water.

They had plenty of time to make the change in the 2013 edition. Instead, they chose to deceive their followers. They chose not to insert Jehovah, and follow their own rules. The reason is obvious. Their entire system of theology would have collapsed, and you know it. They were happy to jump all over the "J" versions, which were translated between 1300-1800 A.D., mindlessly ignoring the thousands of ancient Greek manuscripts, which not one time EVER used the divine name. This is why Christians say the NWT is a corrupt, sectarian paraphrase filled with deception.

If you are going to support the NWT, and teach others that all Bibles are corrupt, except for the NWT, then you are being just as intentionally deceptive as the translators of the NWT are.

slander.

No, it's truth, and you like so many other JW's refuse to see it.

"...They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie ." (2 Thessalonians 2:10-11)

 

[Kolibri]

When a wise man enters into a controversy with a fool,
There will be ranting and ridicule, but no satisfaction.
- Proverbs 29:13

I think I will leave this topic for now. As I have done with the other anti-Jehovah's Witnesses thread you started.

 

[katiemygirl]

When a wise man enters into a controversy with a fool,
There will be ranting and ridicule, but no satisfaction.
- Proverbs 29:13

I think I will leave this topic for now. As I have done with the other anti-Jehovah's Witnesses thread you started.

I must be getting close to the truth.

 

[Kolibri]

More like I don't need to expose myself to your abuse. I already exposed myself long enough.

By keeping a calm heart you think you do not sin.
I begin to feel like I should apply Mt 7:6 and avoid being ripped open.

There is no reason to treat with your hate-mongering any longer.

 

[katiemygirl]

More like I don't need to expose myself to your abuse. I already exposed myself long enough.

By keeping a calm heart you think you do not sin.
I begin to feel like I should apply Mt 7:6 and avoid being ripped open.

There is no reason to treat with your hate-mongering any longer.

I don't hate you or anyone else, but I do hate false doctrine, and rightfully so.

I don't go door to door telling people that all Bible translations are corrupt, and that the only one that is not is the NWT because it has supposedly restored the divine name. I don't tell people that they cannot be saved outside of the Watchtower organization. JW's say these things. I don't. I don't judge who will be saved and who will not.

If disagreeing with the teachings of others is hatemongering, then the JW's are at the top of the list of hatemongers.

The NWT has inserted Jehovah into the NT 237 times where it is never found in a single one of the thousands of extant Greek manuscripts. The translators chose to use the Hebrew translations of the NT, which are very new (1300-1800 A.D.) rather than the ancient, more reliable Greek manuscripts, to support their use of the divine name in the NT. That alone should give pause to any free thinking JW. Then where the Hebrew translations clearly say Jesus is Jehovah, the translators blatantly leave it out. How convenient!

 

[JM2C]

When a wise man enters into a controversy with a fool,

There will be ranting and ridicule, but no satisfaction.

- Proverbs 29:13


I think I will leave this topic for now. As I have done with the other anti-Jehovah's Witnesses thread you started.

I will save you the trouble. I am going to unwatch this thread for a while.

Why the shoe box is empty?

 

[JM2C]

This question is more simple to answer, when you dissect the different theologies in the new testament.


The author of John and his letters creates an idea of jesus being one with the father, it creates the trinity, it even says jesus is the father. So if you're looking for a culprit to the idea jesus is god, it starts there.


Paul says being the image of god, he has come down here to sacrifice himself. Though Paul is clear they are separate distinct entities, it is already too late for a reader, as they've read John on the way there.


Yeshua in Matt, Mark, Luke doesn't claim to be god, clearly points at the father and deems himself not good. Within these gospels he warns about those that come after and use the term 'ego i-mee' (I AM) to deceive many; that is what John, Paul and Revelations have mistakenly forged, to make this ideology of him being god.


Revelations has forgeries at the beginning and end of it, that again use the same terminology used in John (ego i-mee), that are then misconstrued to make him into being god.

Can you explain John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

 

[JM2C]

Jesus was a prophet that suffered from the delusion that his father was the one and only god.

Aside from that belief, he seemed to be a nice man with some profound humanist thinking.

Now about that god that was supposedly to be his father....anyone's guess ! I doubt it highly.

~

'mud

Unclear as Mud. Where did you get this story from?

 

[JM2C]

I'm interested in hearing thoughts about (1) Where this idea comes from and (2) If you agree with it and why/why not. I have heard it described like this: Because of the Trinity, Jesus is God, and all the things done in the Old Testament were therefore done by Jesus prior to his human incarnation. Thoughts?

You’ve probably heard or read this so many times already, but read it again anyway, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1”

The Word, i.e., the Lord Jesus Christ, was with God.” Here we read two personal beings, the Word and the God. “and the Word, i.e., the Lord Jesus Christ, was God.” Here we read the Word, i.e., the Lord Jesus Christ as God and not the God/Father but the Son of God.

From the following verses you will see the Triune God or the Trinity.

JN 14:16 “I will ask the Father, and He will give you another/ALLOS Helper, that He may be with you forever;

JN 14:17 that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.

JN 14:26 “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

JN 15:26 “When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me,

Notice the word “another/allos” in 14:16. The meaning of “another/allos” is the same in nature or one like the Lord Jesus Christ, or “allos, another like Himself, and not heteros –W.E. Vine”.

IOW, here we read the “Helper/Parakleton”, i.e., the Holy Spirit in John 14:26, and the Lord Jesus Christ are one JUST like “I and the Father are one –John 10:30”.

The other meaning of “another/other” is “heteros/different” Example: “You shall have no other/heteros/different gods before me –Exodus 20:3”

Now, if the Lord Jesus Christ and the Father are one [John 10:30], and the Holy Spirit and the Lord Jesus Christ are one [John 14:16], and the Holy Spirit and God/Father are one [Acts 5:3-4 “you have lied to the Holy Spirit –v3” and “You have not lied to men but to God –v4”] then there is only ONE conclusion to this, and that is, The One/Echad/Unified LORD is our God/Elohim, and God/Elohim being plural shows that God, i.e., [God/Father, God/Son, God/Holy Spirit described in John 10:30, John 14:16, and Acts 5:3-4] are all ONE/Echad/Unified LORD, that is more than one, yet is "ONE/ECHAD-SH259 United Jehovah/LORD" and this is what Deuteronomy 6:4 in the OT was saying. Hence, we have the Trinity from the OT to the NT.

 

[JM2C]

The Jews knew of trinities, but their God

was not one. There are a few so-called Trinity proof texts in the Christian Greek Scriptures, but they can all be reasoned away or shown to be spurious. Don't tell a Trinitarian that. It will lead to a endless cycle of debate, with no satisfaction at the end of the day. The real fact is that the Bible foretold a corruption of Christian thought, and the formation of the Trinity that somehow blended the Father, the Son and the holy spirit did not fully develop until the 4th century.

jw alteration/adulteration of John 1:1’s 3rd clause “and the Word was a god” cannot support the other 2 clauses, i.e., the 1st and 2nd clauses where it says, “In the beginning was the Word”, and “and the Word was with God”. If “the Word” was with “the God” before the beginning of anything that was created, then we can only conclude that there was nothing yet in existence but “the God” and “the Word” according to John 1:1. If there was no creation before the beginning then “the Word” is not a creation of “the God” therefore “the Word was God” and not an “a god”.

 

[roger1440]

Is Jesus God? sort of

 

[wizanda]

Can you explain John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

Yes it's easy, John is made up, and the authors of John added their own ideas on lots of things, that don't fit with what Christ taught and the rest of the Bible.

 

[katiemygirl]

Yes it's easy, John is made up, and the authors of John added their own ideas on lots of things, that don't fit with what Christ taught and the rest of the Bible.

If John is made up, what makes you think the rest of the Bible is not?

Where do you find Christ's teaching?

 

[katiemygirl]

Is Jesus God? sort of

How can Jesus be sort of God?

 

[wizanda]

If John is made up, why would you think the rest of the Bible is not?

There are lots of parts in the Bible that are made up; the problem with John is it contradicts the testimony and accounts within the other synoptic gospels so much, it can only be used as hearsay evidence.
Though it does fulfill prophecy, that the things contained within the gospel of John, are parts of the great deception.

 

[JM2C]

Yes it's easy,John is made up, and the authors of John added their own ideas on lots of things, that don't fit with what Christ taught and the rest of the Bible.

Explain it anyway for us to read in this thread.

 

[JM2C]

There are lots of parts in the Bible that are made up; the problem with John is it contradicts the testimony and accounts within the other synoptic gospels so much, it can only be used as hearsay evidence.

The gospel of John is about the true deity of the Lord Jesus Christ, that is, “and the Word was God” and NOT “and the Word was the God”. IOW, “and the Word was the God” is the hearsay evidence and NOT the “and the Word was God” that John wrote.

MT 3:11 “As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

MK 1:8 “I baptized you with water; but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

LK 3:16 John answered and said to them all, “As for me, I baptize you with water; but One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the thong of His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Jn 1:33 I would not have known him, except that the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is he who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.’

The four gospel are saying the same thing about the Lord Jesus Christ.

And in Acts 1:5 the Lord Jesus Christ confirmed all these.

Ac 1:5 For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”

Though it does fulfill prophecy, that the things contained within the gospel of John, are parts of the great deception.

”fulfill prophecy” but “parts of the great deception”?

 

[truthofscripture]

I'm interested in hearing thoughts about (1) Where this idea comes from and (2) If you agree with it and why/why not. I have heard it described like this: Because of the Trinity, Jesus is God, and all the things done in the Old Testament were therefore done by Jesus prior to his human incarnation. Thoughts?

There isn't a scrap of support for Jesus being his own father, in the scriptures. There isn't a scrap of evidence in the scriptures for a trinity, that originated in pagandom, CENTURIES before Christ came to this world in the flesh. Believe me, I've looked and looked, studied and studied more for 5 decades. It's all bunk, this trinity business. I've concluded that the scripture that says in Revelation 12:
9 So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him.

This misleading is being done primarily through mistranslations of God's inspired word, and through all religions claiming to be Christian, but in fact, none of them actually are. Christianity is what Jesus taught, although he called it "the one true faith". He didn't say it was a religion though. He said it was the way to salvation. Religions are a racket designed to keep you coming back, and dumping cash into the collection baskets. They teach things like hell fire and that God isn't a loving God, and that it takes money for redemption. Money the churches want you to give to them. Nowhere in the scriptures does it say anything like hell fire, or redemption for cash. In fact it describes God as "love".

 

[truthofscripture]

There are lots of parts in the Bible that are made up; the problem with John is it contradicts the testimony and accounts within the other synoptic gospels so much, it can only be used as hearsay evidence.
Though it does fulfill prophecy, that the things contained within the gospel of John, are parts of the great deception.

Nothing could be further from the truth. It is more likely, that you haven't understood the sense of the scriptures that you claim contradict other scriptures. They are ALL correct and contradict nothing. All scriptures harmonize with all OTHER scriptures completely. It takes a lot of careful study to see this. One must compare each scripture with each other scripture to discern it's true meaning. If one sees a contradiction, that one hasn't understood correctly the scripture in question.

 

[katiemygirl]

There isn't a scrap of support for Jesus being his own father, in the scriptures. There isn't a scrap of evidence in the scriptures for a trinity, that originated in pagandom, CENTURIES before Christ came to this world in the flesh. Believe me, I've looked and looked, studied and studied more for 5 decades. It's all bunk, this trinity business. I've concluded that the scripture that says in Revelation 12:
9 So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him.

This misleading is being done primarily through mistranslations of God's inspired word, and through all religions claiming to be Christian, but in fact, none of them actually are. Christianity is what Jesus taught, although he called it "the one true faith". He didn't say it was a religion though. He said it was the way to salvation. Religions are a racket designed to keep you coming back, and dumping cash into the collection baskets. They teach things like hell fire and that God isn't a loving God, and that it takes money for redemption. Money the churches want you to give to them. Nowhere in the scriptures does it say anything like hell fire, or redemption for cash. In fact it describes God as "love".

Sounds to me like you've spent fifty years trying to validate your own personal beliefs rather than allowing the Holy Spirit speak to you through the Scriptures.