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Is Jesus God?

U

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Questions for you guys. How would it be belittling Jesus, if He was not God? Can Jesus still do the things He did before if He was not God? What does His divinity have anything to do with His ability to save Christians? Since He IS doing everything from His Father's Will (His Words, not mine: John 5:30), why would it matter if He were God the Father or God the Son?

Does it make a difference, guys? How? and Why?
 
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Eliab ben Benjamin

Eliab ben Benjamin

Active Member
Premium Member
Carlita said:
I don't know. I've been trying to find out the literal mechanism to which He can save people. Do you have a thought? Has Moses helped you in your life time as well as today?
Click to expand...

Gosh, a difficult way you ask the 2 questions there :confused:
Regarding the supposed saving by Y'shua ben Joseph ... I have no idea, the whole concept
of salvation, or needing to be saved is alien to me, as is believing in him as an entity alone can
resolve any wrong i may have done ....

Has Moses helped me in my life, yes .. clearly he gave me rules and a culture to follow that
help me lead a productive life free of the need for evil or wrongdoing ... and brings me closer
to my Creator with the guidance of that law ....
 
outhouse

outhouse

Atheistically
Kolibri said:
Regardless, you certainly have said evolution is a fact
Click to expand...

Evolution is fact.

That's for finally let us know the context had changed from the lack of eyewitnesses in the NT.

Kolibri said:
when it is merely a consensus and theory that is still debated
Click to expand...

Wrong, you don't have a clue do you? Are you that uneducated in science? or is this willful ignorance?

Evolution is not just a consensus of scholars. It is fact, and it has no been debated in any academic circles for over hundreds years.

It has been observed and is way beyond a certainty.


Kolibri said:
And you have presented your other arguments as if there is no possible credibility to accept an alternate explanation.
Click to expand...

Its fact, it is not up for debate.

The only thing up for debate is what makes your fanaticism so strong.

Kolibri said:
It is not that I do not know the dictionary definitions of these words. I certainly do know them.
Click to expand...

Doesn't look like you know, I had to SPELL IT OUT FOR YOU.
 
outhouse

outhouse

Atheistically
We agree that the following evidence-based facts about the origins and evolution of the Earth and of life on this planet have been established by numerous observations and independently derived experimental results from a multitude of scientific disciplines. Even if there are still many open questions about the precise details of evolutionary change, scientific evidence has never contradicted these results:

  1. In a universe that has evolved towards its present configuration for some 11 to 15 billion years, our Earth formed approximately 4.5 billion years ago.
  2. Since its formation, the Earth – its geology and its environments – has changed under the effect of numerous physical and chemical forces and continues to do so.
  3. Life appeared on Earth at least 2.5 billion years ago. The evolution, soon after, of photosynthetic organisms enabled, from at least 2 billion years ago, the slow transformation of the atmosphere to one containing substantial quantities of oxygen. In addition to the release of the oxygen that we breathe, the process of photosynthesis is the ultimate source of fixed energy and food upon which human life on the planet depends.
  4. Since its first appearance on Earth, life has taken many forms, all of which continue to evolve, in ways which palaeontology and the modern biological and biochemical sciences are describing and independently confirming with increasing precision. Commonalities in the structure of the genetic code of all organisms living today, including humans, clearly indicate their common primordial origin
The following academies have endorsed this statement

Albanian Academy of Sciences
National Academy of Exact, Physical and Natural Sciences, Argentina
Australian Academy of Science
Austrian Academy of Sciences
Bangladesh Academy of Sciences
The Royal Academies for Science and the Arts of Belgium
Academy of Sciences and Arts of Bosnia and Herzegovina
Brazilian Academy of Sciences
Bulgarian Academy of Sciences
RSC: The Academies of Arts, Humanities and Sciences of Canada
Academia Chilena de Ciencias
Chinese Academy of Sciences
Academia Sinica, China, Taiwan
Colombian Academy of Exact, Physical and Natural Sciences
Croatian Academy of Arts and Sciences
Cuban Academy of Sciences
Academy of Sciences of the Czech Republic
Royal Danish Academy of Sciences and Letters
Academy of Scientific Research and Technology, Egypt
Académie des Sciences, France
Union of German Academies of Sciences and Humanities
The Academy of Athens, Greece
Hungarian Academy of Sciences
Indian National Science Academy
Indonesian Academy of Sciences
Academy of Sciences of the Islamic Republic of Iran
Royal Irish Academy
Israel Academy of Sciences and Humanities
Accademia Nazionale dei Lincei, Italy
Science Council of Japan
Kenya National Academy of Sciences
National Academy of Sciences of the Kyrgyz Republic
Latvian Academy of Sciences
Lithuanian Academy of Sciences
Macedonian Academy of Sciences and Arts
Academia Mexicana de Ciencias
Mongolian Academy of Sciences
Academy of the Kingdom of Morocco
The Royal Netherlands Academy of Arts and Sciences
Academy Council of the Royal Society of New Zealand
Nigerian Academy of Sciences
Pakistan Academy of Sciences
Palestine Academy for Science and Technology
Academia Nacional de Ciencias del Peru
National Academy of Science and Technology, The Philippines
Polish Academy of Sciences
Académie des Sciences et Techniques du Sénégal
Serbian Academy of Sciences and Arts
Singapore National Academy of Sciences
Slovak Academy of Sciences
Slovenian Academy of Sciences and Arts
Academy of Science of South Africa
Royal Academy of Exact, Physical and Natural Sciences of Spain
National Academy of Sciences, Sri Lanka
Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences
Council of the Swiss Scientific Academies
Academy of Sciences, Republic of Tajikistan
The Caribbean Academy of Sciences
Turkish Academy of Sciences
The Uganda National Academy of Sciences
The Royal Society, UK
US National Academy of Sciences
Uzbekistan Academy of Sciences
Academia de Ciencias Físicas, Matemáticas y Naturales de Venezuela
Zimbabwe Academy of Sciences
African Academy of Sciences
The Academy of Sciences for the Developing World (TWAS)
The Executive Board of the International Council for Science (ICSU)
 
U

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
When I practiced, the close I understood it was His example of our needing to die in the flesh to live in spirit. So, in a sense, I was using Him to help me rather than depending on Him to help me. I hate to say this, but that's the closest way I can see other Christians knowing He died for them.

They take themselves in mind and heart onto Christ flesh. Impersonating His death which, in turn, makes it personal. Then, when they read the Bible and read about His Passion their sins are dying with His. It's a participated empathy to ease one from the sins the Christian has inherited.
--
I can see they're depending on Him because of His example and teachings, as you with Moses and God's other prophets. However, as an actual Savior (as I save a child from drowning), I don't see it given the time periods. That, and I don't believe Jesus is God..so...


Eliab ben Benjamin said:
Gosh, a difficult way you ask the 2 questions there :confused:
Regarding the supposed saving by Y'shua ben Joseph ... I have no idea, the whole concept
of salvation, or needing to be saved is alien to me, as is believing in him as an entity alone can
resolve any wrong i may have done ....

Has Moses helped me in my life, yes .. clearly he gave me rules and a culture to follow that
help me lead a productive life free of the need for evil or wrongdoing ... and brings me closer
to my Creator with the guidance of that law ....
Click to expand...
 
outhouse

outhouse

Atheistically
Carlita said:
I was serious with my question with everyone, though.. why does it make a difference whether or not Jesus is God?
Click to expand...

It doesn't to me. I feel I have a better grasp with no bias applied to the text. I see the context and beauty the authors were trying to persuade people to follow.


Apologist will have many different supernatural reasons. Life after death, not going to hell, but none that change their daily life unless they worship using fear.
 
Kolibri

Kolibri

Well-Known Member
Carlita said:
I was serious with my question with everyone, though.. why does it make a difference whether or not Jesus is God?
Click to expand...

If Jesus is God, then it is dishonoring to say he isn't. If he isn't, than it is blasphemous to say he is. And when we consider 2 Thess 1:8, there will come a time when knowing God for who he really is will be part of the pre-requisites for survival.

"But you who suffer tribulation will be given relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance on those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus." - 1 Thess 1:7,8
 
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Kolibri

Kolibri

Well-Known Member
outhouse said:
We agree that the following evidence-based facts about the origins and evolution of the Earth and of life on this planet have been established by numerous observations and independently derived experimental results from a multitude of scientific disciplines. Even if there are still many open questions about the precise details of evolutionary change, scientific evidence has never contradicted these results:

  1. In a universe that has evolved towards its present configuration for some 11 to 15 billion years, our Earth formed approximately 4.5 billion years ago.
  2. Since its formation, the Earth – its geology and its environments – has changed under the effect of numerous physical and chemical forces and continues to do so.
  3. Life appeared on Earth at least 2.5 billion years ago. The evolution, soon after, of photosynthetic organisms enabled, from at least 2 billion years ago, the slow transformation of the atmosphere to one containing substantial quantities of oxygen. In addition to the release of the oxygen that we breathe, the process of photosynthesis is the ultimate source of fixed energy and food upon which human life on the planet depends.
  4. Since its first appearance on Earth, life has taken many forms, all of which continue to evolve, in ways which palaeontology and the modern biological and biochemical sciences are describing and independently confirming with increasing precision. Commonalities in the structure of the genetic code of all organisms living today, including humans, clearly indicate their common primordial origin
Click to expand...

Number 4 also can prove that these things all had the same artist/designer.

@JayJayDee has already been in a debate with you in another thread regarding the difference between macro- and micro- evolution.

As this thread is not about evolution, I will accept your invite to another thread regarding this matter. My only reason for bring this up is because of the way you preach this and your consensus as if any dissenting view is worthless and that that dissenters are all a bunch of uneducated and/or fanatical people.
 
outhouse

outhouse

Atheistically
Kolibri said:
@JayJayDee has already been in a debate with you in another thread regarding the difference between macro- and micro- evolution.
Click to expand...

That's not a credible scientific debate.

It is merely an apologist expressing his fanaticism and fundamentalism that has stunted his scientific growth severely.

He has failed at every curve he created himself.


Kolibri said:
As this thread is not about evolution
Click to expand...

Then don't bring it up.

Kolibri said:
. My only reason for bring this up is because of the way you preach this and your consensus as if any dissenting view is worthless and that that dissenters are all a bunch of uneducated and/or fanatical people.
Click to expand...

That is true.

Uneducated scientifically. Scientifically stunted through willful ignorance.


And anyone who refuses what is taught in every credible university around the world as higher education, is factually following fanaticism and fundamentalism.
 
U

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I wouldn't see that as dishonoring one way or the other. If Jesus is God He still comes to Earth, sacrifice's Himself on the cross,and rises back to heaven. Christians are saved.

If Jesus is not God, God still made Jesus perfect and made Him to share the same nature as the Creator. He also gave Jesus the authority to speak on His behalf and the words from Jesus are that of the Father.

So, in short, Jesus has permission to be God's representative to die for others as God's Son and rise back to the Father. Christians are saved.

I don't see dishonor or belittlement here. Jesus is divine either way--as God or divine because He is the Son of God.

Kolibri said:
If Jesus is God, then it is dishonoring to say he isn't. If he isn't, than it is blasphemous to say he is. And when we consider 2 Thess 1:8, there will come a time when knowing God for who he really is will be part of the pre-requisites for survival.

"But you who suffer tribulation will be given relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance on those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus." - 1 Thess 1:7,8
Click to expand...
 
JayJayDee

JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
Carlita said:
I was serious with my question with everyone, though.. why does it make a difference whether or not Jesus is God?
Click to expand...

Thank you! Finally someone gets it

Jesus can fulfill his role as Messiah perfectly without being God. In fact, if Jesus was God, then it was extreme overkill in the ransom stakes. Jesus is called a ransom for the human race because he paid an equivalent price for Adam's sin. How does God equal Adam? Jesus needed to be a perfect mortal.....sinless like an unblemished lamb.....he didn't need to be Almighty God.

God is an immortal being and cannot die. Mere humans cannot kill God.
Jesus never was God and not once did he say he was.
 
U

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
It took a 1,000 hits to get a reply. What you said make sense. I know a good friend who is Jehovah's Witness and she talked with me about it as well. I'm used to the trinitarian view; we have some interesting talks because of it. ;)

JayJayDee said:
Thank you! Finally someone gets it

Jesus can fulfill his role as Messiah perfectly without being God. In fact, if Jesus was God, then it was extreme overkill in the ransom stakes. Jesus is called a ransom for the human race because he paid an equivalent price for Adam's sin. How does God equal Adam? Jesus needed to be a perfect mortal.....sinless like an unblemished lamb.....he didn't need to be Almighty God.

God is an immortal being and cannot die. Mere humans cannot kill God.
Jesus never was God and not once did he say he was.
Click to expand...
 
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