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Is Jesus God?

Kolibri

Well-Known Member
While I do not agree with Jehovah’s Witness theology in all respects, I cannot fault them for faults they do not have. Nor do I wish to ignore their many incredibly positive characteristics. I simply want to be fair and as objective as I can with everyone of all faiths and to those without religious faith as well. Just as the Jehovahs Witnesses are legitimately translating John 1:1's last phrase, I believe Kolibri is mis-translating Hebrews 1:8. Kollibri and I are friends and he knows I respect him, (just as I respect you), but I feel perfectly fine at trying to be objective on a point and disagreeing with specific points.

Takes a while to catch up and to decide what I want to respond to. Technically I have to retract my word choice. Mistranslation was a word I jumped to in hasty response. It is not that most Bibles have mistranslated it but that this particular verse has more than one grammatically valid translation. But only one of those valid translations makes sense in the context of Psalm 45. Because of this contextual issue, additional Bibles will use the alternate rendering in this location but keep the preferred theological 'Jesus is God' version at Heb 1:8.

I apologize to @disciple for being hasty. It is not a mistranslation but a poorly chosen translation among options.

The Bible scholar B. F. Westcott states: “The LXX. admits of two renderings: [ho the·os′] can be taken as a vocative in both cases (Thy throne, O God, . . . therefore, O God, Thy God . . . ) or it can be taken as the subject (or the predicate) in the first case (God is Thy throne, or Thy throne is God . . . ), and in apposition to [ho the·os′ sou] in the second case (Therefore God, even Thy God . . . ). . . . It is scarcely possible that [’Elo·him′] in the original can be addressed to the king. The presumption therefore is against the belief that [ho the·os′] is a vocative in the LXX. Thus on the whole it seems best to adopt in the first clause the rendering: God is Thy throne (or, Thy throne is God), that is ‘Thy kingdom is founded upon God, the immovable Rock.’”—The Epistle to the Hebrews (London, 1889), pp. 25, 26.

@Clear , the current extent of my grammatical argument is second-hand through this above source. I am assuming that LXX is the Septuagint, Gr., third and second cent. B.C.E. in the format it was available to B.F. Westcott and F.J.A. Hort in the late 19th century.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Spare me the condescending remarks

Im sorry I get frustrated dealing with so much apologetic fanaticism.

I do not have the luxury of advanced education but for psych 101, nursing, and hold a federally recognized trademark in a complementary health field

That's why I was specific to historical criticism.

I never stated you were completely uneducated. You just lack NT historical knowledge, as well OT.



Most professors are atheists with a post Enlightenment agenda.

Ridiculous. My class on Paul at Harvard with Laura Nasrallah, Professor of New Testament and Early Christianitywas very fair across the board, and was not centered in bias as you describe. Your factually in error here, and if you did study you would know this.

Yale on the NT is historical under Dale B martin who is well respected, was not biased either.

It is pretty pathetic and desperate on your part to talk down to credible historical classes because you refuse modern education and knowledge.

You seem to be having a monologue.

No for you it is a lecture, similar to the ones my students pay to attend.


Reality is that there was no Exodus or creation, Abraham, Moses, and Noah, are literary creations. This leaves Jesus in a book that is known to produce mythology. Its not even up for debate. The NT gospel authors are unknown at this time, and no eyewitnesses wrote any part of the NT.

You denounce through faith, not education or knowledge. I can accept that.

But all it takes is a simple statement from you that is, it is my personal opinion, that would solve everything. His historicity as written makes no difference.
 
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outhouse

Atheistically
The Pope's letter was not intended to be a comprehensive historical treatise, but history is mentioned, which I mistakenly thought you would find interesting

Sorry not my cup of tea. I don't read works unless I know the author and it involves a subject I am researching. Like advancing Hengel's work on Hellenistic Judaism.

I don't even know who this atheist is or if his work is even credible, but I do know if I want apologetics or orthodox theology, I go to the Pope. NOT history.


I know if or when I ever needed heart surgery, in not going to a podiatrist.
 

kepha31

Active Member
Im sorry I get frustrated dealing with so much apologetic fanaticism.
Apology accepted, and I apologize for reacting to perceived arrogance.

That's why I was specific to historical criticism.

I never stated you were completely uneducated. You just lack NT historical knowledge, as well OT.

Ridiculous. My class on Paul at Harvard with Laura Nasrallah, Professor of New Testament and Early Christianity was very fair across the board, and was not centered in bias as you describe. Your factually in error here, and if you did study you would know this.

Yale on the NT is historical under Dale B martin who is well respected, was not biased either.

It is pretty pathetic and desperate on your part to talk down to credible historical classes because you refuse modern education and knowledge.
"modern education and knowledge" that denies the Resurrection is revisionism and there is nothing credible about it.

Reality is that there was no Exodus or creation, Abraham, Moses, and Noah, are literary creations. This leaves Jesus in a book that is known to produce mythology. Its not even up for debate. The NT gospel authors are unknown at this time, and no eyewitnesses wrote any part of the NT.
I'm glad you don't say Jesus didn't exist. Reducing His words and actions to myth is a belief you hold, it ignores the legacy that He left.

You denounce through faith, not education or knowledge. I can accept that.

But all it takes is a simple statement from you that is, it is my personal opinion, that would solve everything. His historicity as written makes no difference.
Faith is compatible with reason, faith without reason is dangerous. I denounce nothing based on faith alone. Your faith is based on education and knowledge, the foundation of your belief system. My faith is based on sound intellectual principles, contrary to the straw man mantra of "blind faith" we get from atheists.

FACEPALM.

Does not denounce a word I have written, unless you completely lack understanding of context of what I said.

Divine covenants, has nothing to do with what has been explained to you.
Divine covenants are historical to 2 world religions, with billions upon billions of people within 3 millennium. If modern scholarship reduces ALL of it to literary creations, then modern scholarship is making extraordinary claims. Sorting out literary forms is the task of the exeget, who needs the historian. Have you ever read Dei Verbum?

12. However, since God speaks in Sacred Scripture through men in human fashion, (6) the interpreter of Sacred Scripture, in order to see clearly what God wanted to communicate to us, should carefully investigate what meaning the sacred writers really intended, and what God wanted to manifest by means of their words.

To search out the intention of the sacred writers, attention should be given, among other things, to "literary forms." For truth is set forth and expressed differently in texts which are variously historical, prophetic, poetic, or of other forms of discourse. The interpreter must investigate what meaning the sacred writer intended to express and actually expressed in particular circumstances by using contemporary literary forms in accordance with the situation of his own time and culture. (7) For the correct understanding of what the sacred author wanted to assert, due attention must be paid to the customary and characteristic styles of feeling, speaking and narrating which prevailed at the time of the sacred writer, and to the patterns men normally employed at that period in their everyday dealings with one another. (8)

But, since Holy Scripture must be read and interpreted in the sacred spirit in which it was written, (9) no less serious attention must be given to the content and unity of the whole of Scripture if the meaning of the sacred texts is to be correctly worked out. The living tradition of the whole Church must be taken into account along with the harmony which exists between elements of the faith. It is the task of exegetes to work according to these rules toward a better understanding and explanation of the meaning of Sacred Scripture, so that through preparatory study the judgment of the Church may mature. For all of what has been said about the way of interpreting Scripture is subject finally to the judgment of the Church, which carries out the divine commission and ministry of guarding and interpreting the word of God. (10)

13. In Sacred Scripture, therefore, while the truth and holiness of God always remains intact, the marvelous "condescension" of eternal wisdom is clearly shown, "that we may learn the gentle kindness of God, which words cannot express, and how far He has gone in adapting His language with thoughtful concern for our weak human nature." (11) For the words of God, expressed in human language, have been made like human discourse, just as the word of the eternal Father, when He took to Himself the flesh of human weakness, was in every way made like men.
Does any of this conflict with what they teach at Yale, Harvard or Princeton? Do you think Dei Verbum is based on myths and legends? Maybe we should collaborate on a historical board game and make lots of money. Then I can spend the rest of my life sipping Pina Coladas on a warm beach.

Sorry not my cup of tea. I don't read works unless I know the author and it involves a subject I am researching. Like advancing Hengel's work on Hellenistic Judaism.
If you want to research Covenant Theology someday, I recommend the book. Scott Hahn is a world renowned biblical scholar that you never heard of.o_O Kinship by Covenant - Hahn, Scott W - Yale University Press

I don't even know who this atheist is or if his work is even credible, but I do know if I want apologetics or orthodox theology, I go to the Pope. NOT history.
A wise decision:)
 
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OneThatGotAway

Servant of Yahweh God Almighty
OneThatGotAway: Your implicit interpretation of the greek article as though when it is present it has the same usage as the english definite article, and when it is absent it is equivalent to the english indefinite article, is wrong. The fact that the article appears in front of a noun in greek does not indicate that you should translate "the" there, and it's absence does not mean you shouldn't translate with a definite article either.

So for example ὁ λόγος του θεὸυ is "the word of God", but it's not "the word of the God", because in english using "the" would denote something that is not at all intended by the greek. Or if you look at the greek text of Romans 8:33, it reads Θεὸς ὁ δικαιῶν. "[It is] God who justifies". Here there is no article on Theos, but it obviously refers to the one God, and not "a God". Here we also see the article acting as a sort of pronoun, God is the one "who" is justifying. This sort of usage, as a weak pronoun, is how the greek article originally was used.

There's a fairly good overview here: The Greek Article

1. In the Greek New Testament, every occurrence (147 times) THEOS, O THEOS, and TON THEOS refers to YAHWEH, as The God Almighty, but never Jesus Christ. Even in John 1:1 expresses the oneness of Jesus with God; not that Jesus is The God.
2. Every occurrence of THEOI refers only to false gods, men called gods, or Jesus Christ. The word "god" or "gods" is only referenced five times with Jesus Christ referenced quoting himself as one of the "gods".
3. Every occurrence of THEOU either refers to a god or Yahweh, God Almighty depending on the context; but not Jesus Christ.

"Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?" (John 10:34)
"I have said, Ye [are] gods; and all of you [are] children of the most High." (Psalms 82:6)
 

OneThatGotAway

Servant of Yahweh God Almighty
They did fail to remove their polytheistic past from the text. And yes much of Elohim does originate from cultures that placed more importance on El then Yahweh.
The book was edited to monotheism, on purpose to try and hide their past.

Your point is nothing more than a "Which came first: The chicken or the egg?" Or better yet, your argument is simply based on: Who said it or started it first? I stand with believers that the title AELHYM (Elohim) began with Hebrews of Yahweh. There isn't enough evidence to pinpoint its first usage.

And it is good that Israel had enough integrity to record their sins. Their sins serve as an warning for us to not follow. In fact the Sons of Yishrael deliberately recorded their idolatry as commanded by their God, Yahweh. I applaud them for their honesty and truth, even if it hurts their reputation for a while.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
I'm glad you don't say Jesus didn't exist

I believe he existed, and I see no reason for people to need to create a figure as such. The historical man fits the evidence in all aspects 100%

. Reducing His words and actions to myth is a belief you hold,.

No that is an assumption you make, not knowing enough to be able to place my words in context.

FIRST they were not his words an actions, they were the words and actions of unknown Hellenist living far away from his Galilean peasant life.

Second I wish I actually could tell you which words and actions were his. Because much of what was written definitely is not historical.

I know much of what you read in the bible originated with John, which originated in roughly in that geographic area. More is actually Johns teachings then you will ever know.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Your point is nothing more than a "Which came first: The chicken or the egg?" Or better yet, your argument is simply based on: Who said it or started it first? I stand with believers that the title AELHYM (Elohim) began with Hebrews of Yahweh. There isn't enough evidence to pinpoint its first usage.

And it is good that Israel had enough integrity to record their sins. Their sins serve as an warning for us to not follow. In fact the Sons of Yishrael deliberately recorded their idolatry as commanded by their God, Yahweh. I applaud them for their honesty and truth, even if it hurts their reputation for a while.


Thanks for playing but you need to find the right ballpark first.

Polytheism came first in Israelite cultures "plural" from the Canaanite faith it evolved from. Not up for debate.
 

OneThatGotAway

Servant of Yahweh God Almighty
Where in the bible did He say “a god”? You need to understand John 1:1-b “and the Word was with God” meaning two personal beings, one is “the Word”, i.e., the Son of God, who is God, in the bosom of the Father/God –John 1:18, and the other ONE is “the God”, i.e., the Father/God.
What it did NOT say in John 1:1-b is, “and the Word was the God” as the Unitarians’ arguments.

And you need to read the Greek translation from which you base your English translation therein. You need to understand that this single verse does not trump the rest of the Scriptures that show that Jesus is not Yahweh, the Almighty God. This verse (John 1:1) express the oneness shared between the Father and his begotten (created) Son. At least believe Jesus' mouth when he said that "I am the Son of God". Teaching that John 1:1 reveals two equal Gods is simply polytheism. The understanding of the branch (John 1:1) has to be in line with the understanding of the Torah (the tree). Teaching otherwise is like forcing a square peg in a round hole.
 
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lovemuffin

τὸν ἄρτον τοῦ ἔρωτος
1. In the Greek New Testament, every occurrence (147 times) THEOS, O THEOS, and TON THEOS refers to YAHWEH, as The God Almighty, but never Jesus Christ. Even in John 1:1 expresses the oneness of Jesus with God; not that Jesus is The God.
2. Every occurrence of THEOI refers only to false gods, men called gods, or Jesus Christ. The word "god" or "gods" is only referenced five times with Jesus Christ referenced quoting himself as one of the "gods".
3. Every occurrence of THEOU either refers to a god or Yahweh, God Almighty depending on the context; but not Jesus Christ.

"Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?" (John 10:34)
"I have said, Ye [are] gods; and all of you [are] children of the most High." (Psalms 82:6)

We could quibble about whether John 1:1 refers to Jesus as Theos, or Romans 9:5 but it doesn't seem productive. In general, I agree, the N.T. authors do not refer to Jesus as Theos. As in Paul's formulation in Corinthians, "εἷς Θεος ὁ Πατήρ... και εἷς κύριος Ἰησοῦς Χριστός" (one God, the Father, and one Lord, Jesus Christ).

However, this isn't much related to the argument you seemed to be making and my criticism of it. That said, the argument that Jesus is equal to the Father in Christian belief isn't based on the idea that he's referred to as Theos, and never really has been. It's based on a lot of other elements, not limited to the idea that Jesus performs a role that in Judaism God alone could perform, that Christians worship Jesus and pray to him in the N.T., that Kyrios is already a divine title in the way Paul uses it (referring to its use as a replacement for the Tetragrammaton), that 2nd temple period Judaism's understanding of the Divine identity is such (especially comparing Wisdom in the wisdom literature) that it can understand Jesus being included in God's identity without betraying monotheism, and etc.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
I recommend the book. Scott Hahn is a world renowned biblical scholar that you never heard of.o_O Kinship by Covenant - Hahn, Scott W - Yale University Press

He is a known apologist. :rolleyes: not a scholar. Thanks for showing the world how apologist pervert the word scholar though, prime example.

He is not responsible for creating history.

Scott Hahn - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Scott Hahn K.H.S. (born October 28, 1957) is a Catholic theologian,

Now here is a REAL scholar

Bart D. Ehrman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Bart D. Ehrman /ərmən/ (born October 5, 1955) is an American New Testament scholar


SEE THE DIFFERENCE

Theologian

Scholar

One teaches history, one teaches theology. learn what your debating.
 

OneThatGotAway

Servant of Yahweh God Almighty
Neither one of them apostles said that the Lord Jesus Christ is “The God”. You NEED TO UNDERSTAND John 1:1-b first before commenting on any of the apostles’ writings.

And you need to read ALL of the Holy Bible from Genesis to Revelation in order to understand that no one addressed Jesus as the same God, a God having the same power and Deity as God Almighty Yahweh. Jesus' reference as god is limited to only the power as the Son of God, and not Almighty as Yahweh. You really need to read the Greek translation before you comment on John 1:1 again.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Scott Hahn is a world renowned biblical scholar

Like Crocodile Dundee "that's not a knife!!!

That aint no scholar, this here is a scholar. Hell they wont let him teach a class on the NT.

John Dominic Crossan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

John Dominic Crossan (born February 17, 1934[1]) is an Irish-American New Testament scholar


Now that's a historian.

scott is not PPSSST hey buddy PPPsssttt !!

Did you read in his whole wiki article anywhere where it called him a world renowned scholar?

Could I start getting some honesty ??????????????????????????
 

outhouse

Atheistically
And you need to read ALL of the Holy Bible from Genesis to Revelation in order to understand that no one addressed Jesus as the same God, a God having the same power and Deity as God Almighty Yahweh. Jesus' reference as god is limited to only the power as the Son of God, and not Almighty as Yahweh. You really need to read the Greek translation before you comment on John 1:1 again.


If I had to pick the best of two wrongs, Im going with you brother on this one. :D

You know better then to use one verse to guide context for the whole book.

That was actually good advise ;)
 

OneThatGotAway

Servant of Yahweh God Almighty
And that was reason why the Lord Jesus Christ in John 1:1-c cannot be an “a god” or “another/heteros/different gods”

Yahweh did not make any exceptions in those declarations, you are reading into God's commandments.
When it comes to God's Deity as The Almighty God, he reserve that title and glory to himself and He will not share that part of himself with any other including his Son. Why even Jesus taught this truth!

"Thou shalt have no other gods before me." (Exodus 20:3)
Insert here ---> Except for my son, I will have this God before me.
"I [am] YAHWEH: that [is] my name: and my glory will I not give to another" (Isaiah 42:8)
Insert here ---> Except for my son, I will give my glory as God Almighty.
That sir is a quintessential recipe for polytheism and Scriptural disaster!
 
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