Is Jesus God?

[OneThatGotAway]

Same arguments deserve the same counter arguments. Please You NEED TO UNDERSTAND John 1:1-b first before commenting on any of the apostle’s writings.
Please You NEED TO UNDERSTAND John 1:1-b first before commenting on any of the apostle’s writings.

I hate to sound like a record player but: You need to read and understand ALL of the Holy Bible in order for you to understand a single verse like John 1:1. Because this verse is in harmony with all the others and not a change into polytheism. The ancestral trees like Abraham, Moses, Elijah, Jesus, and Paul supported monotheism and the wild grafted branch desires to twist and unravel monotheism into polytheism based upon the misunderstanding of a single verse! Let God be true and all men liars. I say again:

The sons of Yishrael knew this truth that Jesus never claimed to be The God.
Jesus' disciples knew this truth that Jesus Christ never claimed to be The God.

 

[OneThatGotAway]

OneThatGotAway said: ↑
Claiming a title as the Son of God denotes some divine power from God and that troubled the Pharisees. Besides, Jesus could not be the sinless savior if he had taught his disciples that he is The God, that he is Yahweh.

Please You NEED TO UNDERSTAND John 1:1-b first before commenting on any of the apostle’s writings.
Please You NEED TO UNDERSTAND John 1:1-b first before commenting on any of the apostle’s writings.

Parroting the same trolling message will not change the truth. You need to understand monotheism.
If you don't believe Jesus' own words when he said that he is the Son of God, then how can you understand the rest of the Scriptures?

 

[Desert Snake]

I hate to sound like a record player but: You need to read and understand ALL of the Holy Bible in order for you to understand a single verse like John 1:1. Because this verse is in harmony with all the others and not a change into polytheism. The ancestral trees like Abraham, Moses, Elijah, Jesus, and Paul supported monotheism and the wild grafted branch desires to twist and unravel monotheism into polytheism based upon the misunderstanding of a single verse! Let God be true and all men liars. I say again:

The sons of Yishrael knew this truth that Jesus never claimed to be The God.
Jesus' disciples knew this truth that Jesus Christ never claimed to be The God.

This is wishful thinking, imo.

 

[lovemuffin]

Citation please.

"...to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints together with all those who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Cor 1:2) The phrase "call upon the name of the Lord" is understood to be a kind of prayer. See also Romans 10:13

"And as they were stoning Stephen, he called out, 'Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.'" (Acts 7:59)

The "Marana tha!" (Our Lord, come!) of 1 Cor 16:22 appears to be an Aramaic prayer to Jesus included without translation in the greek text: "I, Paul, write this greeting with my own hand. If anyone has no love for the Lord, let him be accursed. Marana tha!" The very fact that it is included in aramaic rather than in translation suggests its status as a prayer of common use.

In 2 Cor 12, when Paul talks about the "thorn in his flesh", he writes "Three times I pleaded with the Lord about this, that it should leave me" (2 Cor 12:8), which I think is pretty clearly a form of prayer.

I'm not sure if this is an exhaustive list.

 

[Kolibri]

Thank-you. It gives me something to start with.

(Edit: I might not be able to reply yet tonight though)

 

[OneThatGotAway]

”and the Word was God” If you teach the Jesus that you know as an “a god” then you are teaching polytheism and that is against Exodus 20:3 “You shall have no other/heteros/different gods before me”. The Jesus that I know is God [and the Word was God who was with The God], and NOT “THE GOD”, but the Son of God. Trinitarians do not teach polytheism, you do by saying Jesus is an “a god”

Oh I can assure you that I am not teaching polytheism; have you not read:
"Yahweh said to Moses: Behold, I have made you as God to Pharoah. (Exodus 7:1)
Yahweh is saying in Exodus that you shall have no other God before his face that is having or fitting His Deity as the Almighty God. It is clear that Moses did not have that kind of god deity as Almighty. Neither did Jesus as the Son of God. However, Trinitarians teaches polytheism when they say that Jesus shares everything with Yahweh as being ALSO God Almighty. Context is everything when it comes to understanding the monotheism of Yahweh.

 

[OneThatGotAway]

You forgot to add this verse, Phil 2:10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
We Trinitarians do not bow to an “a god” but to God only, i.e., The God/Father, God/Son, and God/Holy Spirit.

I did not forget to add anything. I believe I was forwarding someone else's quotes from the Holy Bible in one of my replies.
I do know this, that every son of Adam will bow to the Son of God, even if Yahweh were to make Yahshua (aka Jesus Christ) to be as a god the same way he did for Moses. (Exodus 7:1). And (by the way) what is the name of the Holy Spirit so that I can properly address him or her in my baptism? I'm sure when you stand before and bow before Yahweh God Almighty, that you will not see Jesus the Son of God sitting on God's Throne. Jesus will forever be seated on the second throne to the right of the first one; he will never sit on the first throne which belongs to Yahweh alone. HalleluYah!

 

[Kolibri]

And (by the way) what is the name of the Holy Spirit so that I can properly address him or her in my baptism?

Not having that name does lead one to understand that "name" here is similar in use to how we used to hear the expression "Stop! In the name of the law!"

This passage in Mt 28:19,20 is not trinitarian as much as it is pointing to the requirement that those getting baptized know the role each one has in our lives as Christians.

 

[OneThatGotAway]

Hear, O Israel: YAHWEH our God! YAHWEH [is] one." (Deuteronomy 6:4)

For better understanding the word “one” is “echad”
The ONE/ECHAD HE, is the Lord or The One/Echad/Unified LORD is our God/Elohim, and God/Elohim being plural shows that God, i.e., [God/Father, God/Son, God/Holy Spirit described in John 10:30, John 14:16, and Acts 5:3-4] are all ONE/Echad/Unified LORD, that is more than one, yet is "ONE/ECHAD-SH259 United Jehovah/LORD" and this is what Deuteronomy 6:4 in the OT was saying. Hence, we have the Trinity from the OT to the NT.

There is one Yahweh not two (shnayim) gods nor three (shaloshah) gods as believers of polytheism wants us to believe. AELHYM (Elohim) is plural in power and abilities not gods or persons. Polytheists teach that Elohim is many gods! Well Elohim could be millions of gods with that teaching. Yahweh is the EL (The One). Or God Almighty is the AEL (The One) + HYM (many powers). Hence you have One God, Yahweh, and one The Son of God, Yahshua The Messiah (aka Jesus Christ).

 

[outhouse]

The Son of God, Yahshua The Messiah (aka Jesus Christ).

You mean the Aramaic Galilean named Isho who ended up getting crucified and later deemed a Messiah by the Hellenist Aramaic Jews had a disdain for?

 

[outhouse]

There is one Yahweh not two

Actually Yahweh started out as a son of El. For about 400 years the were separate deities. From 1200 BC to 800 BC they were separate.

Around 800 BC we see some cultures attributing all Els attributes to Yahweh, giving all Els power and wife to Yahweh.

But that did not stick and many kept he deities separate.

During Kind Josiah's reign after 622BC we had a complete overhaul of all religious text, and all text was edited to just one god. Yahweh and El were now compiled as one deity

Like it or not you could be considered a polytheist without knowing it

gods as believers of polytheism wants us to believe

I understand you don't follow the trinity. Its what started my long journey to atheism. To me, I did not see any reason or logic and refuse to believe dogma and what I perceived as rhetoric.

And while you believe what you do, others have that same conviction it is real. You wont change their belief whether your right or wrong.

Hell I cant get people to accept 1 + 1 = 2 historically speaking, including you.

 

[OneThatGotAway]

Thanks for playing but you need to find the right ballpark first.
Polytheism came first in Israelite cultures "plural" from the Canaanite faith it evolved from. Not up for debate.

Oh it is you who needs to find the right ballpark: This is a game of believers in God and his Son Jesus Christ, where the Trinitarians versus the Monotheists. It is written "In the beginning, God". Genesis 1:1 is the beginning of monotheism and it the first man Adam worship Yahweh in a monotheistic style. Don't flatter yourself, I have no intention of debating any theology with an atheist.

 

[outhouse]

Genesis 1:1 is the beginning of monotheism and it the first man Adam worship Yahweh in a monotheistic style

You wish lol

Nice mythology but it has no historicity outside mythology.

I have no intention of debating any theology with an atheist

You don't have a choice. But I do debate very little theology, so your semi safe. Provided you don't cross historical lines.

I have no intention of changing your belief or changing your theology.

I just you would state it is my opinion, or my faith to believe such, then making so many statements with certainty on topic that do cross historical lines with what history perceives as mythology.

BY the way, most historicity in biblical studies I have been trying to get through to you, were produced by theist, not atheist.

Credible history does not mean atheism.

 

[OneThatGotAway]

We could quibble about whether John 1:1 refers to Jesus as Theos, or Romans 9:5 but it doesn't seem productive. In general, I agree, the N.T. authors do not refer to Jesus as Theos. As in Paul's formulation in Corinthians, "εἷς Θεος ὁ Πατήρ... και εἷς κύριος Ἰησοῦς Χριστός" (one God, the Father, and one Lord, Jesus Christ).

However, this isn't much related to the argument you seemed to be making and my criticism of it. That said, the argument that Jesus is equal to the Father in Christian belief isn't based on the idea that he's referred to as Theos, and never really has been. It's based on a lot of other elements, not limited to the idea that Jesus performs a role that in Judaism God alone could perform, that Christians worship Jesus and pray to him in the N.T., that Kyrios is already a divine title in the way Paul uses it (referring to its use as a replacement for the Tetragrammaton), that 2nd temple period Judaism's understanding of the Divine identity is such (especially comparing Wisdom in the wisdom literature) that it can understand Jesus being included in God's identity without betraying monotheism, and etc.

My argument is not to find the cause of Trinitarianism nor to understand how they twist Scriptures to fit their pagan polytheism. I'm simply stating that given the ALL of the Holy Bible from Genesis to Revelation, some Christians are making the claim that all scriptures support a Trinity and that is blatantly false in any translation. Beside the fact that Jesus himself repeatedly said that he is simply the Son of God, I add other examples by comparing how the Greek words of "God" supports the monotheism of Yahweh. And there are many other verses that supports the monotheism of Yahweh and no Trinity.

The only divine role that Jesus served was that of The Son of God which was in line with the Torah of Moses and the Prophets of Yahweh. The Gospels did recorded two branches of Judaism that had questioned Jesus Christ's authority and we know where that got them after A.D. 70.

We know that Chistians worshipped and prayed to him as the Son of God and that is acceptable in Yahweh's eyes.

I'm curious if the Greek translators distinguish Kurios the same way the English translators distinguish "lord" from "The LORD".

I would not put it behind me that other branches of Judiaism may have dabbled into some form of polytheism such as they did here:

‘Did you offer to me slain animals and sacrifices forty years in the wilderness, O house of Israel?
You took up the tabernacle of Moloch, the star of your god Rephan, the figures which you made to worship.
I will carry you away beyond Babylon.’ (Acts 7:42-43)

 

[OneThatGotAway]

Not having that name does lead one to understand that "name" here is similar in use to how we used to hear the expression "Stop! In the name of the law!"

This passage in Mt 28:19,20 is not trinitarian as much as it is pointing to the requirement that those getting baptized know the role each one has in our lives as Christians.

I know. Thank you for that insight Kolibri. I'm just having a little fun knowing that this verse was inserted later on by copyists and was not part of the original Book of Matthew. However, I believe it was an oversight on the Trinitarians who later inserted that verse in like a pork barrel bill before Congress.

 

[psychoslice]

Of course Jesus wasn't God, a mere man being all there is in the cosmos, I don't think so.

 

[OneThatGotAway]

You mean the Aramaic Galilean named Isho who ended up getting crucified and later deemed a Messiah by the Hellenist Aramaic Jews had a disdain for?

No, I'm talking about Yahshuo the Son of David who performed miracles like walking on water, raising the dead, and rising from the dead by Yahweh. And adored by millions around the world for over 2,015 years. In Hebrew, we have the letter "Y" (yod) in our Aleph-Bet.

 

[OneThatGotAway]

Actually Yahweh started out as a son of El. For about 400 years the were separate deities. From 1200 BC to 800 BC they were separate.
Around 800 BC we see some cultures attributing all Els attributes to Yahweh, giving all Els power and wife to Yahweh.
But that did not stick and many kept he deities separate.
During Kind Josiah's reign after 622BC we had a complete overhaul of all religious text, and all text was edited to just one god. Yahweh and El were now compiled as one deity
Like it or not you could be considered a polytheist without knowing it

I understand you don't follow the trinity. Its what started my long journey to atheism. To me, I did not see any reason or logic and refuse to believe dogma and what I perceived as rhetoric.
And while you believe what you do, others have that same conviction it is real. You wont change their belief whether your right or wrong.
Hell I cant get people to accept 1 + 1 = 2 historically speaking, including you.

Well, your accounts and sources are lacking and will not stand up to other accounts of Israel's history. Like you said, how can you be so certain?

And you wrong about convincing others because I onced believed in the doctrine of a Trinity. And then I start to research the Bible and its history for myself.

 

[OneThatGotAway]

You wish lol
Nice mythology but it has no historicity outside mythology.
You don't have a choice. But I do debate very little theology, so your semi safe. Provided you don't cross historical lines.
I have no intention of changing your belief or changing your theology.
I just you would state it is my opinion, or my faith to believe such, then making so many statements with certainty on topic that do cross historical lines with what history perceives as mythology.
BY the way, most historicity in biblical studies I have been trying to get through to you, were produced by theist, not atheist.
Credible history does not mean atheism.

I would not be surprise that every history is mythology to you.
If I choose to debate you or anyone, it either for my enjoyment or for the understanding that others may find interesting enough to comment. And I debate everything especially theology in a religious forum. I could care less about your intentions; I'm here to share knowledge as well as gain knowledge from others here. History is in the eye of the beholder; to each his own. Tell me something I don't know about theists and atheists.

 

[psychoslice]

History is in the eye of the beholder, and that is why I cannot believe Jesus was God, it is just too ridiculers, this is what I feel.