Is Jesus God?

[atpollard]

Of course not, I know John 1 very well.
And what is the Logos? Is is God's word, plans, reasons, etc. Jesus was in God's plans right from the beginning. God sees the beginning and the end. So the glory was there right from the beginning with His son.

These two sort of go together.
I am confused a little by your answer ... what does it mean that "the glory was there right from the beginning with His son." if there was no part of Jesus existing before Mary and the conception?
Who is the "with His son" that is "in the beginning"?

No he didn't. He was saying that he and the gospel was preached before Abraham.

I don't think that this makes linguistic sense. How do you get from "Before Abraham was, I exist." to 'way back then, people were told that someone like me would come, someday'.
I think that it is a reference to the old name of God ("I Am"), but I admit that I am prejudiced towards that view from other verses. However, even if we assume that he was not making a reference to God's OT name, the simplest reading of the words as written are a claim to having an ancient existence (Jesus existed in some form before Abraham).

Not at all. There is a human part of Jesus, but since he did not pre-exist, there is no past eternal part. He is NOW immortal in heaven.

I was actually suggesting a very old past (a nod to the 'First Created' argument or his claim to predate Abraham) and an eternal future. I was simply claiming that scripture teaches both a human Jesus with a definite birth and death and a Jesus with a longer frame of existence.

Are you saying that if someone denies that Jesus is God is to refuse what scriptures say? Then yes, I deny that Jesus is God. But I know what scripture says.

No, I literally meant "Let us set aside the deity of Jesus and not discuss it for the moment" ... there is still scripture that talks about Jesus beyond the 33 years he walked the earth. Katiemygirl has done a thorough job of presenting them and debating the Greek far beyond my skill in that area. I simply know from the big picture that there are lots of verses that suggest both an ancient Son of God (like John 8:58 or Heb 1:2) and an eternal reign (which you do not challenge), so that scripture speaks of both Jesus 33 year Earthly ministry and a longer term ministry. I carefully avoided the topic of Jesus Deity (since I believe that is something that God will need to show you himself ... it is not my job to reveal truth, just to point out what I see).

 

[Hockeycowboy]

He laid aside His divine priviledges, not His divine attributes. He never stopped being God.

Paul tells us in Col. 2:9 that in Him the fullness of deity dwells in bodily form...

Do you deny the divinity or deity of Christ?

Do you think the word "divine" means God? Or that they're somehow synonymous? Look up the definition. It means, "of God," or, "coming from God."

Grief, the Bible is divine! (Well, the original writings were, not the faulty translations we have today.)

Adam was divine, before he sinned and became imperfect. The faithful Angels are divine. It's not related to "being God," that's not right.

And you quote Colossians 2:9, but forget context. Heck, even the next verse sheds more light on the phrase, that Jesus' followers can share in that fullness. Does that imply that they are part God, too?

Yes, Jesus was divine! Was/is Jesus, God? No. He always directed attention to His Father. In fact, He said at John 4:23-24, that "the true worshippers will worship the Father." This agrees with Paul's words at 1 Corinthians 8:6....Saying "to us there is one God, the Father.....And there is one Lord, Jesus Christ."

Honestly, I could go on and on.

Anyone not having preconceived ideas, and reading this for the first time, coupled with all the other verses, would have no problem seeing that Paul considered Jesus as different from God.

 

[atpollard]

Adam was divine, before he sinned and became imperfect.

Do you have a scripture behind this statement, or is it just based on your definition of "divine".
(Just curious and looking for clarification).

 

[Intojoy]

“In the year that king Uzziah died I saw the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up; and his train filled the temple.

(Isaiah sees the Messiah Yeshua)

Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, Jehovah of hosts.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭6:1, 5‬ ‭ASV‬‬
http://bible.com/12/isa.6.1,5.asv

Isaiah fears that surely he now must die for no man can see God and live. He doesn't die because it was not God the Father Isaiah saw, Isaiah is seeing the second Person of Elohim, God the Son.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Do you have a scripture behind this statement, or is it just based on your definition of "divine".
(Just curious and looking for clarification).

The definition is not mine; its Merriam-Webster's.

Let me ask you this: do you think, when God creates, He makes mistakes? Not according to Deuteronomy 32:4; His activity is "perfect." And being that Adam 'came from God,' he fit the definition. (Although Adam pulled away from God on his own accord, bringing imperfection to his offspring, and setting in motion God's purpose for redeeming mankind through Jesus our Saviour, he initially was divine.)

 

[Deeje]

“In the year that king Uzziah died I saw the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up; and his train filled the temple.

(Isaiah sees the Messiah Yeshua)

Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, Jehovah of hosts.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭6:1, 5‬ ‭ASV‬‬
http://bible.com/12/isa.6.1,5.asv

In Isa 6:1 the person identified as "the Lord" is Jehovah, not Messiah Yeshua. Verse 5 confirms it.

When the divine name was removed from the Hebrew scriptures and replaced with the ambiguous title "Lord", Christians began to get confused as to who was being addressed by that title.....The Sovereign Lord Jehovah or the Lord Jesus Christ? The scene was set for the merging of God the Father and his son into one entity. It took a while before the holy spirit was included in a three-way split deity. Over 300 years after Jesus died, "Christians" finally decided who God was. The trouble was, it was not a teaching that originated from scripture.

According to Strongs Concordance, H136 (Lord in verse 1) is a title given mostly to God in the OT. Other "Lords" are also mentioned, so it isn't a designation for God alone.

H3068 however is the Divine Name of Jehovah (YHWH found in V5)

According to Strongs, "The KJV translates Strongs H3068 in the following manner: LORD (6,510x), GOD (4x), JEHOVAH (4x), variant (1x)."

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=H3068&t=NASB

When you see how often God's personal name has been substituted in the OT (6,510 times!) it becomes obvious that all that substitution was destined to cause confusion.

Isaiah fears that surely he now must die for no man can see God and live. He doesn't die because it was not God the Father Isaiah saw, Isaiah is seeing the second Person of Elohim, God the Son.

This always intrigues me. We know that no imperfect sinner can stand before Jehovah and this is why we need Jesus as a mediator to take our prayers to the Father and to intercede as High Priest for us. What I don't understand is why we need a mediator between us and God, but we don't need a mediator between us and Christ. If Jesus is God, how does that make sense?

And if we cannot 'see God and yet live', how come we can see this "second person of Elohim" and not die?

Can you please show me the expression "God the Son" in any Bible passage?

 

[katiemygirl]

“In the year that king Uzziah died I saw the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up; and his train filled the temple.

(Isaiah sees the Messiah Yeshua)

Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, Jehovah of hosts.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭6:1, 5‬ ‭ASV‬‬
http://bible.com/12/isa.6.1,5.asv

Isaiah fears that surely he now must die for no man can see God and live. He doesn't die because it was not God the Father Isaiah saw, Isaiah is seeing the second Person of Elohim, God the Son.

I am so glad you posted Isaiah 6. It is just one more proof of the many, which show Christ is Jehovah.

The Apostle John quotes Isaiah 6 in his gospel.

John 12
37 But though He had performed so many signs before them, yet they were not believing in Him. 38 This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke: “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT? AND TO WHOM HAS THE ARM OF THE LORD BEEN REVEALED?” 39 For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again, 40 “HE HAS BLINDED THEIR EYESAND HE HARDENED THEIR HEART, SO THAT THEY WOULD NOT SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND PERCEIVE WITH THEIR HEART, AND BE CONVERTED AND I HEAL THEM.” 41 These things Isaiah said because he saw His glory, and he spoke of Him. 42 Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing Him, for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue; 43 for they loved the approval of men rather than the approval of God.

44 And Jesus cried out and said, “He who believes in Me, does not believe in Me but in Him who sent Me. 45 “He who sees Me sees the One who sent Me. (NAS)

Who is the “Him” that many of the rulers put their faith in verse 42?

Is it not the same "Him" as in v. 41?

It is Jesus Christ who is being referred to as Jehovah. There is no shift in the context. It was the same “Him” that the people were putting their faith in verses 36-37, who is the Lord Jesus Christ.

It was for believing in Jesus that one was kicked out of the synagogue .

Not only that, Jesus goes on to proclaim in verse 45 that to see Him is to see the Father. Why? Because they are both Jehovah!

 

[katiemygirl]

="Deeje, post: 4566751, member: 18814"]In Isa 6:1 the person identified as "the Lord" is Jehovah, not Messiah Yeshua. Verse 5 confirms it.

The Apostle John quotes Isaiah 6 in his gospel.

John 12
37 But though He had performed so many signs before them, yet they were not believing in Him. 38 This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke: “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT? AND TO WHOM HAS THE ARM OF THE LORD BEEN REVEALED?” 39 For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again, 40“HE HAS BLINDED THEIR EYESAND HE HARDENED THEIR HEART, SO THAT THEY WOULD NOT SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND PERCEIVE WITH THEIR HEART, AND BE CONVERTED AND I HEAL THEM.” 41 These things Isaiah said because he saw His glory, and he spoke of Him. 42 Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing Him,for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue; 43 for they loved the approval of men rather than the approval of God.

44 And Jesus cried out and said, “He who believes in Me, does not believe in Me but in Him who sent Me. 45 “He who sees Me sees the One who sent Me. (NAS)

Who is the “Him” that many of the rulers put their faith in verse 42?

Is it not the same "Him" as in v. 41?

It is Jesus Christ who is being referred to as Jehovah. There is no shift in the context. It was the same “Him” that the people were putting their faith in verses 36-37, who is the Lord Jesus Christ.

It was for believing in Jesus that one was kicked out of the synagogue .

Not only that, Jesus goes on to proclaim in verse 45 that to see Him is to see the Father. Why? Because they are both Jehovah!

 

[katiemygirl]

The definition is not mine; its Merriam-Webster's.

Let me ask you this: do you think, when God creates, He makes mistakes? Not according to Deuteronomy 32:4; His activity is "perfect." And being that Adam 'came from God,' he fit the definition. (Although Adam pulled away from God on his own accord, bringing imperfection to his offspring, and setting in motion God's purpose for redeeming mankind through Jesus our Saviour, he initially was divine.)

Please show us a Scripture that says Adam is divine.

 

[atpollard]

The definition is not mine; its Merriam-Webster's.

Let me ask you this: do you think, when God creates, He makes mistakes? Not according to Deuteronomy 32:4; His activity is "perfect." And being that Adam 'came from God,' he fit the definition. (Although Adam pulled away from God on his own accord, bringing imperfection to his offspring, and setting in motion God's purpose for redeeming mankind through Jesus our Saviour, he initially was divine.)

Is the sin of man a departure from the plan of God, or was Jesus and redemption what God had in mind even as far back as when he said "Let there be light"?

 

[Crypto2015]

Jesus is certainly God: Isaiah 9:6.

 

[Crypto2015]

Once again, taken out of context to fit your beliefs. Look at it carefully. First of all, scripture tells us that God created the heavens and the earth. Your saying Jesus did. So we are going to differ on that one.

Those who believe in the Trinity point to this verse and quote all things were created by him as proving that Jesus was God. But, if we look into the preposition by, we see that it means by reason of or for the sake of. Yahweh, who knows all, did create all things with His son in mind. And Jesus didnt create the angels. Jesus was made lower than the angels and your saying that he created them?

That's because Jesus is Yahweh. The trinity is all over the Old Testament. For example, He says "Let US make mankind in our own image..." (Genesis 1:26). This "us" is not the royal we, since the royal we did not exist in the Middle East until very recently. The majestic plural was created by Henry III in the Middle Ages. Moreover, the Old Testament says that nobody can see God's face and live (Exodus 33:20). However, in Genesis 18 Abraham eats with Yahweh and even offers Yahweh some water to wash his feet. Who was this Yahweh if no one can see God's face and live? The verse that talks about Jesus being made slightly lower than the angels talks about Jesus' human life, not about Jesus' eternal relationship with all creation.

 

[katiemygirl]

Do you think the word "divine" means God? Or that they're somehow synonymous? Look up the definition. It means, "of God," or, "coming from God."

Grief, the Bible is divine! (Well, the original writings were, not the faulty translations we have today.)

Adam was divine, before he sinned and became imperfect. The faithful Angels are divine. It's not related to "being God," that's not right.

And you quote Colossians 2:9, but forget context. Heck, even the next verse sheds more light on the phrase, that Jesus' followers can share in that fullness. Does that imply that they are part God, too?

Yes, Jesus was divine! Was/is Jesus, God? No. He always directed attention to His Father. In fact, He said at John 4:23-24, that "the true worshippers will worship the Father." This agrees with Paul's words at 1 Corinthians 8:6....Saying "to us there is one God, the Father.....And there is one Lord, Jesus Christ."

Honestly, I could go on and on.

Anyone not having preconceived ideas, and reading this for the first time, coupled with all the other verses, would have no problem seeing that Paul considered Jesus as different from God.

You have been shown that Jesus is Jehovah God. Every English Bible translation shows Jesus is God, with the exception of the corrupt sectarian paraphrase NWT.

Rather than accept the Bible translations we have been given, you have chosen to create your own translation, ripping apart every single verse in the Bible, which shows Jesus is God, putting your own spin on each one.

You go so far as to equate Adam with Jesus. You say Adam was divine but offer no such Scripture.

When do we ever see as Adam as all knowing? All seeing? Could he be everywhere at once? Was he the same yesterday, today and forever? Was he worshiped? Did he forgive sins? Did he have the power to calm the sea or walk on water? Did he raise the dead? Heal the sick or make the lame walk again?

My Jesus did all of those things. Yet you belittle Him, and make Him just another Adam, no more than a human, just another one of God's creatures, a good guy, a prophet.

I don't know who your Jesus is, but my Jesus is Jehovah God. It is He who will judge you someday. It is He who can save you. Yet you make him out to be nothing but an equal to Adam.

I question who this Jesus is that you claim to believe in because he is not the Jesus of the Bible.

Happy New Year!

 

[Hockeycowboy]

You have been shown that Jesus is Jehovah God. Every English Bible translation shows Jesus is God, with the exception of the corrupt sectarian paraphrase NWT.

Rather than accept the Bible translations we have been given, you have chosen to create your own translation, ripping apart every single verse in the Bible, which shows Jesus is God, putting your own spin on each one.

You go so far as to equate Adam with Jesus. You say Adam was divine but offer no such Scripture.

When do we ever see as Adam as all knowing? All seeing? Could he be everywhere at once? Was he the same yesterday, today and forever? Was he worshiped? Did he forgive sins? Did he have the power to calm the sea or walk on water? Did he raise the dead? Heal the sick or make the lame walk again?

My Jesus did all of those things. Yet you belittle Him, and make Him just another Adam, no more than a human, just another one of God's creatures, a good guy, a prophet.

I don't know who your Jesus is, but my Jesus is Jehovah God. It is He who will judge you someday. It is He who can save you. Yet you make him out to be nothing but an equal to Adam.

I question who this Jesus is that you claim to believe in because he is not the Jesus of the Bible.

Happy New Year!

So, who was Jesus praying to, in John 17? Himself?
When Jesus was baptized, who said from heaven, "You are my Son; I have approved you"?

In Psalms 83:18, it says that Jehovah is the "Most High"; he has no head. In 1 Corinthians 11:3, Jesus has a head.

"Yet you belittle Him, and make Him just another Adam, no more than a human, just another one of God's creatures, a good guy, a prophet."

No! Jesus is my Saviour, my King, my High Priest (through whom I ask my sins to be forgiven.) But I know the One who gave Him that power and those positions. (John 17:3)
Jesus is the second most powerful Person in the universe!

You mention the miracles. Did not Moses, Elijah, Elisha and others perform miracles? Yes. Does that make them God?

Jesus was anointed. What does anointed mean?

This reparté with you accomplishes nothing.
Take care! You certainly have a lot of zeal!

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Is the sin of man a departure from the plan of God, or was Jesus and redemption what God had in mind even as far back as when he said "Let there be light"?

You didn't answer my question.

But I'll answer yours. It certainly was a departure from God's purpose! You think everything that happens is God's "plan"?
That He always gets what He wants? That He wanted Adam to sin and to die, and by extension, all of us? How ludicrous.

The Bible indicates otherwise. Jesus said, 'Many are on the road to destruction." (Matthew 7:13-14) Is this what God wants, part of His 'plan'? Not according to Peter's words at 2 Peter 3:9...."(God) doesn't want any to be destroyed, but wants all to gain repentance." Unfortunately, in this instance what God wants is not going to happen, because many people prefer wicked things.

Are you a Calvinist? Because I was, once.

 

[moorea944]

So, who was Jesus praying to, in John 17? Himself?
When Jesus was baptized, who said from heaven, "You are my Son; I have approved you"?

In Psalms 83:18, it says that Jehovah is the "Most High"; he has no head. In 1 Corinthians 11:3, Jesus has a head.

"Yet you belittle Him, and make Him just another Adam, no more than a human, just another one of God's creatures, a good guy, a prophet."

No! Jesus is my Saviour, my King, my High Priest (through whom I ask my sins to be forgiven.) But I know the One who gave Him that power and those positions. (John 17:3)
Jesus is the second most powerful Person in the universe!

You mention the miracles. Did not Moses, Elijah, Elisha and others perform miracles? Yes. Does that make them God?

Jesus was anointed. What does anointed mean?

This reparté with you accomplishes nothing.
Take care! You certainly have a lot of zeal!

Good point. Also, what about forgiving sins? God granted the angel of His presence with Moses to forgive sins too. Does that make him God? Of course not. But dont bring that up with a trinitarian!! lol

 

[atpollard]

You didn't answer my question.

But I'll answer yours. It certainly was a departure from God's purpose! You think everything that happens is God's "plan"?
That He always gets what He wants? That He wanted Adam to sin and to die, and by extension, all of us? How ludicrous.

The Bible indicates otherwise. Jesus said, 'Many are on the road to destruction." (Matthew 7:13-14) Is this what God wants, part of His 'plan'? Not according to Peter's words at 2 Peter 3:9...."(God) doesn't want any to be destroyed, but wants all to gain repentance." Unfortunately, in this instance what God wants is not going to happen, because many people prefer wicked things.

Are you a Calvinist? Because I was, once.

"You didn't answer my question."
It seemed rhetorical since you immediately answered it yourself.
So I answered it with another question.

"You think everything that happens is God's "plan"?"
Yes. Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent ... doesn't leave much room for "oops, I didn't see that coming" from God.
Start another topic and I'd be glad to discuss it.

With respect to 'Is Jesus God' (and the bunny trail 'Is Adam Divine'), God created Adam with the capacity to sin and God created for Adam the opportunity to sin, knowing that Adam was imperfect and would need a savior ... allowing God to reveal more of his Glory than was displayed when only angels worshiped Him.
We are far better off post glorification, than Adam was pre-sin.
Salvation, sanctification and glorification results in something better than simple obedience.
We have the knowledge of the true extent of God's love and grace on display for all creation.
We are not merely God's creation, we are adopted children in his family.
Where does God say of Adam "this is my son", yet of us he says we are "joint heirs with Christ" and "His masterwork".

"Are you a Calvinist?"
Yes. 'Reformed' is generally synonymous with Calvinist. (Technically, Calvin was part of the Reformation Movement, so Calvinists are 'Reformed'.)

 

[moorea944]

"You didn't answer my question."
It seemed rhetorical since you immediately answered it yourself.
So I answered it with another question.

"You think everything that happens is God's "plan"?"
Yes. Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent ... doesn't leave much room for "oops, I didn't see that coming" from God.
Start another topic and I'd be glad to discuss it.

With respect to 'Is Jesus God' (and the bunny trail 'Is Adam Divine'), God created Adam with the capacity to sin and God created for Adam the opportunity to sin, knowing that Adam was imperfect and would need a savior ... allowing God to reveal more of his Glory than was displayed when only angels worshiped Him.
We are far better off post glorification, than Adam was pre-sin.
Salvation, sanctification and glorification results in something better than simple obedience.
We have the knowledge of the true extent of God's love and grace on display for all creation.
We are not merely God's creation, we are adopted children in his family.
Where does God say of Adam "this is my son", yet of us he says we are "joint heirs with Christ" and "His masterwork".

"Are you a Calvinist?"
Yes. 'Reformed' is generally synonymous with Calvinist. (Technically, Calvin was part of the Reformation Movement, so Calvinists are 'Reformed'.)

God knows the beginning to the end. He sees the future like it is in front of Him now. He knew Adam would sin, if he didnt, there would be no reason to bring Jesus into the world. God doesnt make mistakes, He is always right.

 

[atpollard]

Good point. Also, what about forgiving sins? God granted the angel of His presence with Moses to forgive sins too. Does that make him God? Of course not. But dont bring that up with a trinitarian!! lol

"God granted the angel of His presence with Moses to forgive sins too."
I went back to the Moses and the burning bush story (Exodus 3).
Where does the "angel of the Lord" forgive sin?
(I missed it skimming the chapter, so I assume that you are talking about something else.)
Comprehension is easier when I at least know what you are talking about.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

"You didn't answer my question."
It seemed rhetorical since you immediately answered it yourself.
So I answered it with another question.

"You think everything that happens is God's "plan"?"
Yes. Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent ... doesn't leave much room for "oops, I didn't see that coming" from God.
Start another topic and I'd be glad to discuss it.

With respect to 'Is Jesus God' (and the bunny trail 'Is Adam Divine'), God created Adam with the capacity to sin and God created for Adam the opportunity to sin, knowing that Adam was imperfect and would need a savior ... allowing God to reveal more of his Glory than was displayed when only angels worshiped Him.
We are far better off post glorification, than Adam was pre-sin.
Salvation, sanctification and glorification results in something better than simple obedience.
We have the knowledge of the true extent of God's love and grace on display for all creation.
We are not merely God's creation, we are adopted children in his family.
Where does God say of Adam "this is my son", yet of us he says we are "joint heirs with Christ" and "His masterwork".

"Are you a Calvinist?"
Yes. 'Reformed' is generally synonymous with Calvinist. (Technically, Calvin was part of the Reformation Movement, so Calvinists are 'Reformed'.)

In your view, then, if this is the case, using your reasoning and thinking deeply on it, one would ultimately come to the conclusion that God is to blame for everything.

How sad you feel that way. I did, once. With my belief in omniscience, thinking God had predestined everything, I couldn't understand how "God is love."

But I learned, omniscience doesn't require 'knowledge of the future.' Only the past and present. The times in the Bible where He knew what was going to happen, like in prophecy, is when He had an active hand in controlling the situation to work themselves out that way.

He "felt regret," and was "pained," many times. The understanding you propose actually portrays Him as a masochistic, sadistic, homicidal maniac. (And free will is a farce.)

There is no way you could really love someone like that, only have an unhealthy fear of them.

I hope you come to a better understanding of God.

Take care.