Is Jesus God?

[atpollard]

In your view, then, if this is the case, using your reasoning and thinking deeply on it, one would ultimately come to the conclusion that God is to blame for everything.
How sad you feel that way. I did, once. With my belief in omniscience, thinking God had predestined everything, I couldn't understand how "God is love."
But I learned, omniscience doesn't require 'knowledge of the future.' Only the past and present. The times in the Bible where He knew what was going to happen, like in prophecy, is when He had an active hand in controlling the situation to work themselves out that way.
He "felt regret," and was "pained," many times. The understanding you propose actually portrays Him as a masochistic, sadistic, homicidal maniac. (And free will is a farce.)
There is no way you could really love someone like that, only have an unhealthy fear of them.
I hope you come to a better understanding of God.

Take care.

Not 'blame'.
(To try and stay somewhat on topic) God did not MAKE Adam sin. God created Adam with free will, so Adam had the ability to sin or not sin. God created a rule to test Adam (do not eat of THIS ONE tree). God knew that Adam would fail the test and Jesus would, ultimately, need to 'fix it'. So Adam's sin is not God's fault, but it was part of God's plan.
Like a pilot adjusting the rudder to compensate for a crosswind, God's plans have taken our choices into account.

God bless.

 

[Deeje]

Please show us a Scripture that says Adam is divine.

Please show us a scripture that says that Jesus is Almighty God in a direct statement....one where you don't have to read it into a text by inference or do any fancy footwork to suggest it.

The meaning of "divine" according to Merriam Websters is:

"Full Definition of divine

di·vin·erdi·vin·est

1. 1 a : of, relating to, or proceeding directly from God or a god <divine love>
2. b : being a deity <the divine Savior> c : directed to a deity <divine worship>"

Adam qualifies as "divine" under the first definition. He was a perfect, sinless direct creation of God.

 

[Deeje]

Jesus is certainly God: Isaiah 9:6.

The Bible does indeed call Jesus "theos" but this is not a word that is as limited in Greek or Hebrew as it is in English.

In going back to the Hebrew words that are translated “God” we see "ʼEl", probably meaning “Mighty One; Strong One.” (Gen 14:18)
It is used with reference to Yahweh, to other gods, and to men. It is also used extensively in the makeup of proper names, such as Elisha (meaning “God Is Salvation”) and Michael (“Who Is Like God?”). In some places ʼEl appears with the definite article (ha·ʼElʹ, literally, “the God” as in Greek with "ho theos") with reference to Jehovah, thereby distinguishing him from other gods. (Gen 46:3; 2Sam 22:31)

At Isaiah 9:6 Jesus Christ is prophetically called ʼEl Gib·bohrʹ, “Mighty God”, not ʼEl Shad·daiʹ [God Almighty], which is applied to Jehovah at Genesis 17:1.

The Hebrew word ʼelo·himʹ (gods) appears to be from a root meaning “be strong.” ʼElo·himʹ is the plural of ʼelohʹah (god). Sometimes this plural refers to a number of gods (Gen 31:30, 32; 35:2), but more often it is used as a plural of majesty, dignity, or excellence. ʼElo·himʹ is used in the Scriptures with reference to Jehovah himself, to angels, to idol gods (singular and plural), and to men.

So "theos" (Greek) and "elohim" (Hebrew) both mean either "God" or "a god"....a divine being or one who has divine authority. No one can deny that Jesus is a divine being, one coming directly from his God and Father, who was given divine authority. (Matt 28:18)

That's because Jesus is Yahweh. The trinity is all over the Old Testament. For example, He says "Let US make mankind in our own image..." (Genesis 1:26). This "us" is not the royal we, since the royal we did not exist in the Middle East until very recently.

There are two individuals who are spoken about in Gen 1:26. The Creator, YHWH and his firstborn son. The son was used by the Father as the agency through whom creation came, as Paul stated in Col 1:15,16...

"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him." (NASB)

Please read the words carefully. An image of something is not the original...it is a reflection of the original.

The term "firstborn" means that he is the first of God's sons (of which he has many.) "Only begotten" means that he is an "only child" of his kind, but still "begotten", which means he needed a "begetter"...a Father who existed before him.
There is no one like this uniquely created son because he is the first and only direct creation of his Father. This son was then used by the Father to fabricate the raw materials that God had brought into existence. There is only one Creator and there is one who was at his Father's side through the whole process as a "master craftsman". (Prov 8:22, 30, 31)

the Old Testament says that nobody can see God's face and live (Exodus 33:20). However, in Genesis 18 Abraham eats with Yahweh and even offers Yahweh some water to wash his feet. Who was this Yahweh if no one can see God's face and live?

It may well have been the Logos (which means spokesman) because he spoke on behalf of his God. If "no man may see God and yet live", then this was not God....it was his representative, delivering an important message about the birth of Isaac. The angels that accompanied him went on to rescue Lot and his family from Sodom before they brought the cities to ruin. These angels too ate and drank when in human form.

The verse that talks about Jesus being made slightly lower than the angels talks about Jesus' human life, not about Jesus' eternal relationship with all creation.

Of course, no one can dispute that Jesus was made "a little lower than the angels" as a human on earth.....he said he was from "the realms above" and that he was sent by God to offer a ransom for Adam's children as a means to reconcile them with their Creator.

However, the scriptures do not identify Jesus as Yahweh......not once. Jesus called his Father "the only true God" without including himself. (John 17:3) The apostles identified the Father as their "one God" separately to Jesus their Lord. (1 Cor 8:5, 6)...were they mistaken? Do you just ignore those scriptures that expose your trinity as false?

 

[atpollard]

Please show us a scripture that says that Jesus is Almighty God in a direct statement....one where you don't have to read it into a text by inference or do any fancy footwork to suggest it.

The meaning of "divine" according to Merriam Websters is:

"Full Definition of divine

di·vin·erdi·vin·est

1. 1 a : of, relating to, or proceeding directly from God or a god <divine love>
2. b : being a deity <the divine Savior> c : directed to a deity <divine worship>"

Adam qualifies as "divine" under the first definition. He was a perfect, sinless direct creation of God.

Actually, no Adam wasn't.
You said yourself that YAWH only made the Son and the Son made everything else.
Unless the son is God (or a god) then Adam was not made by God (according to you).

In Genesis, God "formed" and "breathed" to create Adam.
(I leave it to you and katiemygirl to split hairs over the Hebrew words if you wish)
That sounds (in English) like the work of the Son.
[Not a problem for me since I think that Jesus was/is/remains fully God, but you make a sharper distinction.]

 

[katiemygirl]

So, who was Jesus praying to, in John 17? Himself?
When Jesus was baptized, who said from heaven, "You are my Son; I have approved you"?

In Psalms 83:18, it says that Jehovah is the "Most High"; he has no head. In 1 Corinthians 11:3, Jesus has a head.

"Yet you belittle Him, and make Him just another Adam, no more than a human, just another one of God's creatures, a good guy, a prophet."

No! Jesus is my Saviour, my King, my High Priest (through whom I ask my sins to be forgiven.) But I know the One who gave Him that power and those positions. (John 17:3)
Jesus is the second most powerful Person in the universe!

You mention the miracles. Did not Moses, Elijah, Elisha and others perform miracles? Yes. Does that make them God?

Jesus was anointed. What does anointed mean?

This reparté with you accomplishes nothing.
Take care! You certainly have a lot of zeal!

As I said before, you belittle Jesus. You now equate Him to not only Adam, but Moses, Elijah and Elisha. If you can't see the difference between Jesus, the Savior of the world, and these great men, I don't know what to tell you.

And now you go so far as to say Jesus doesn't have as much power as His Father. Really? WOW!

You asked what anointed means. It means consecrated.

You still don't get Jesus' submission to His Father, do you? When we look at the overall teaching of Scripture, nowhere are we shown that the Lord Jesus Christ is inferior to God in terms of his Divine nature and essence, or that He is an inferior Divine Being, a lesser god. The Scriptures show that Christ, by being the Son of God, is subject to the Father in rank and position, but no less God than His Father.

Tell me, are you less human than your Father? Why would you think Jesus is any less God than His Father?

Can you think of anything about the nature of Jehovah that Jesus does not possess? Is Jesus not sovereign, the creator of all things, eternal, infinitely holy and righteous, omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, and immutable? YES HE IS! The Bible says He is.

Human sons are equal in essence and nature with their fathers, but subject to them in rank and authority. It is the same with the Son of God.

What exactly does Son of God mean to you?

 

[katiemygirl]

Please show us a scripture that says that Jesus is Almighty God in a direct statement....one where you don't have to read it into a text by inference or do any fancy footwork to suggest it.

The meaning of "divine" according to Merriam Websters is:

"Full Definition of divine

di·vin·erdi·vin·est

1. 1 a : of, relating to, or proceeding directly from God or a god <divine love>
2. b : being a deity <the divine Savior> c : directed to a deity <divine worship>"

Adam qualifies as "divine" under the first definition. He was a perfect, sinless direct creation of God.

The way forums work is that if someone asks a question, you answer the question, not with another question, but with a statement of fact. I have asked you at least six, and you have ignored every one of them. But that's okay. I understand if you can't answer.

If mighty God means lesser than almighty God, you have a problem. Jehovah is also called mighty God. Does this make Him a lesser God?

If Jesus is not the Almighty God and only the mighty God, as you JW's maintain, then that makes Jesus God since GOD is called the mighty God the same as Jesus.

This is an old worn out and many times over disproven talking point of Jehovah's Witnesses. You need to tell your Governing Body to toss it.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Actually, no Adam wasn't.
You said yourself that YAWH only made the Son and the Son made everything else.
Unless the son is God (or a god) then Adam was not made by God (according to you).

In Genesis, God "formed" and "breathed" to create Adam.
(I leave it to you and katiemygirl to split hairs over the Hebrew words if you wish)
That sounds (in English) like the work of the Son.
[Not a problem for me since I think that Jesus was/is/remains fully God, but you make a sharper distinction.]

Please read Matthew 19:4-6. Jesus did not include himself.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

As I said before, you belittle Jesus. You now equate Him to not only Adam, but Moses, Elijah and Elisha. If you can't see the difference between Jesus, the Savior of the world, and these great men, I don't know what to tell you.

And now you go so far as to say Jesus doesn't have as much power as His Father. Really? WOW!

You asked what anointed means. It means consecrated.

You still don't get Jesus' submission to His Father, do you? When we look at the overall teaching of Scripture, nowhere are we shown that the Lord Jesus Christ is inferior to God in terms of his Divine nature and essence, or that He is an inferior Divine Being, a lesser god. The Scriptures show that Christ, by being the Son of God, is subject to the Father in rank and position, but no less God than His Father.

Tell me, are you less human than your Father? Why would you think Jesus is any less God than His Father?

Can you think of anything about the nature of Jehovah that Jesus does not possess? Is Jesus not sovereign, the creator of all things, eternal, infinitely holy and righteous, omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, and immutable? YES HE IS! The Bible says He is.

Human sons are equal in essence and nature with their fathers, but subject to them in rank and authority. It is the same with the Son of God.

What exactly does Son of God mean to you?

Again, the Angels are called "sons of God." Adam is called "son of God."

Some time in the future, obedient mankind will be sons and daughters of God.

John 14:28, "The Father is GREATER than I am." Jesus own words.

The Bible, many times, call the Father, the God of Jesus. Jesus Himself stated he had a God, calling Him ,"my God", four times in one verse! (Revelation 3:12)

Since Christian means "follower" of Jesus (not worshipper), and we're told to follow his steps closely (1 Peter 2:21), I'll play it safe, and worship who Jesus worshipped. Anything else is NOT following His steps closely. Jesus always directed attention to His Father. Sorry, but you're not doing that.

 

[moorea944]

"God granted the angel of His presence with Moses to forgive sins too."
I went back to the Moses and the burning bush story (Exodus 3).
Where does the "angel of the Lord" forgive sin?
(I missed it skimming the chapter, so I assume that you are talking about something else.)
Comprehension is easier when I at least know what you are talking about.

It's in Exodus 23. Great chapter. Awesome chapter! "God's name" is in the angel. God is manifesting Himself in the angel. God has given him power and authority to forgive sins in this situation. This is also not saying that all angels can do this, just this one in this situation.

20 "Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.
21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.
22 But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.
23 For mine Angel shall go before thee......"

This is the same for Jesus too. God's name is in him. Jesus bares God name. God is working or manifesting Himself through Jesus. No trinity here at all. Acts 2, those miracles Jesus did was God's miracles. God was working through Jesus. Awesome!!

"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:"
Love that verse!!

 

[moorea944]

The Bible does indeed call Jesus "theos" but this is not a word that is as limited in Greek or Hebrew as it is in English.

In going back to the Hebrew words that are translated “God” we see "ʼEl", probably meaning “Mighty One; Strong One.” (Gen 14:18)
It is used with reference to Yahweh, to other gods, and to men. It is also used extensively in the makeup of proper names, such as Elisha (meaning “God Is Salvation”) and Michael (“Who Is Like God?”). In some places ʼEl appears with the definite article (ha·ʼElʹ, literally, “the God” as in Greek with "ho theos") with reference to Jehovah, thereby distinguishing him from other gods. (Gen 46:3; 2Sam 22:31)

At Isaiah 9:6 Jesus Christ is prophetically called ʼEl Gib·bohrʹ, “Mighty God”, not ʼEl Shad·daiʹ [God Almighty], which is applied to Jehovah at Genesis 17:1.

The Hebrew word ʼelo·himʹ (gods) appears to be from a root meaning “be strong.” ʼElo·himʹ is the plural of ʼelohʹah (god). Sometimes this plural refers to a number of gods (Gen 31:30, 32; 35:2), but more often it is used as a plural of majesty, dignity, or excellence. ʼElo·himʹ is used in the Scriptures with reference to Jehovah himself, to angels, to idol gods (singular and plural), and to men.

So "theos" (Greek) and "elohim" (Hebrew) both mean either "God" or "a god"....a divine being or one who has divine authority. No one can deny that Jesus is a divine being, one coming directly from his God and Father, who was given divine authority. (Matt 28:18)



There are two individuals who are spoken about in Gen 1:26. The Creator, YHWH and his firstborn son. The son was used by the Father as the agency through whom creation came, as Paul stated in Col 1:15,16...

"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him." (NASB)

Please read the words carefully. An image of something is not the original...it is a reflection of the original.

The term "firstborn" means that he is the first of God's sons (of which he has many.) "Only begotten" means that he is an "only child" of his kind, but still "begotten", which means he needed a "begetter"...a Father who existed before him.
There is no one like this uniquely created son because he is the first and only direct creation of his Father. This son was then used by the Father to fabricate the raw materials that God had brought into existence. There is only one Creator and there is one who was at his Father's side through the whole process as a "master craftsman". (Prov 8:22, 30, 31)



It may well have been the Logos (which means spokesman) because he spoke on behalf of his God. If "no man may see God and yet live", then this was not God....it was his representative, delivering an important message about the birth of Isaac. The angels that accompanied him went on to rescue Lot and his family from Sodom before they brought the cities to ruin. These angels too ate and drank when in human form.



Of course, no one can dispute that Jesus was made "a little lower than the angels" as a human on earth.....he said he was from "the realms above" and that he was sent by God to offer a ransom for Adam's children as a means to reconcile them with their Creator.

However, the scriptures do not identify Jesus as Yahweh......not once. Jesus called his Father "the only true God" without including himself. (John 17:3) The apostles identified the Father as their "one God" separately to Jesus their Lord. (1 Cor 8:5, 6)...were they mistaken? Do you just ignore those scriptures that expose your trinity as false?

Your absolutely right!!! Isaiah 9 is not calling Jesus God here. The "mighty God", like you said, in Hebrew, is "EL" . It can also be rendered "power of God" or God's power. David said that in Psalms too. " It is God (El) that strengthens me." He is talking about God's power or spirit that strengthens him. It can also be Eloah or Elohim.

People dont understand that we are reading English bibles that have been translated from Hebrew and Greek. We dont have some words or sayings or phrases that they have, so now, we have to make up or find something that matches. Sometimes it's incorrect. Now we go down a different path that the truth is now altered.

Plus, how many letters from the apostles begin saying that God is the God and father of Jesus? I'm trying to figure out how you get the trinity out of that......

 

[katiemygirl]

Again, the Angels are called "sons of God." Adam is called "son of God."

Some time in the future, obedient mankind will be sons and daughters of God.

John 14:28, "The Father is GREATER than I am." Jesus own words.

The Bible, many times, call the Father, the God of Jesus. Jesus Himself stated he had a God, calling Him ,"my God", four times in one verse! (Revelation 3:12)

Since Christian means "follower" of Jesus (not worshipper), and we're told to follow his steps closely (1 Peter 2:21), I'll play it safe, and worship who Jesus worshipped. Anything else is NOT following His steps closely. Jesus always directed attention to His Father. Sorry, but you're not doing that.

Jesus is the ONLY begotten Son of God. He is not a son of God like angels.

You continue to belittle Him, equating Him with human beings and now angels.

I worship the Father, through His Son. It would be impossible to worship Jehovah without going through Jesus. Jesus is the way to the Father. When you worship the Father, you are worshiping the Son. We read in the gospels and in the letters that Jesus was worshiped. He was also prayed to.

You have not told us what it means to be the Son of God.

 

[Mr. Beebe]

Satan has and always will, seek to teach men that Jesus is not a Divine being. If the Divinity of Jesus was not hidden in the garb of humanity,, nobody would be able to look upon Jesus and live.

When He returns to get His saints,, we shall see Him as He really is. and what of the wicked? They shall be killed by the brightness of His Coming. On that day, at the appearance of Jesus,, even the Sun shall be ashamed at it's own brightness in comparison to it's Creator.

Jesus is the Express Image of His Father.

Who raised Jesus from the grave? If you say God the Father,, you are right. If you say Jesus raised Himself,, you are right. And if you say the Holy Spirit raised Jesus, you are right yet again. all three are God.

 

[katiemygirl]

Satan has and always will, seek to teach men that Jesus is not a Divine being. If the Divinity of Jesus was not hidden in the garb of humanity,, nobody would be able to look upon Jesus and live.

When He returns to get His saints,, we shall see Him as He really is. and what of the wicked? They shall be killed by the brightness of His Coming. On that day, at the appearance of Jesus,, even the Sun shall be ashamed at it's own brightness in comparison to it's Creator.

Jesus is the Express Image of His Father.

Who raised Jesus from the grave? If you say God the Father,, you are right. If you say Jesus raised Himself,, you are right. And if you say the Holy Spirit raised Jesus, you are right yet again. all three are God.

Amen Mr. Beebe!

 

[katiemygirl]

Here is just one more proof of the many throughout the Scripture, which show Christ is Jehovah.

The Apostle John quotes Isaiah 6 in his gospel.

John 12
37 But though He had performed so many signs before them, yet they were not believing in Him. 38 This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke: “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT? AND TO WHOM HAS THE ARM OF THE LORD BEEN REVEALED?” 39 For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again, 40 “HE HAS BLINDED THEIR EYESAND HE HARDENED THEIR HEART, SO THAT THEY WOULD NOT SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND PERCEIVE WITH THEIR HEART, AND BE CONVERTED AND I HEAL THEM.” 41 These things Isaiah said because he saw His glory, and he spoke of Him.42 Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing Him, for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue; 43 for they loved the approval of men rather than the approval of God.

44 And Jesus cried out and said, “He who believes in Me, does not believe in Me but in Him who sent Me. 45 “He who sees Me sees the One who sent Me. (NAS)

Who is the “Him” that many of the rulers put their faith in verse 42?

Is it not the same "Him" as in v. 41?

It is Jesus Christ who is being referred to as Jehovah. There is no shift in the context. It was the same “Him” that the people were putting their faith in verses 36-37, who is the Lord Jesus Christ.

It was for believing in Jesus that one was kicked out of the synagogue .

Not only that, Jesus goes on to proclaim in verse 45 that to see Him is to see the Father. Why? Because they are both Jehovah!

 

[atpollard]

Please read Matthew 19:4-6. Jesus did not include himself.

You are driving me crazy.
I have enough trouble following scripture as written.
These sliding JW doctrines are very frustrating.

Did God (the Father) create Jesus the Son?
Did Jesus (the Son of God) create all other things?
So who the heck created Adam? Does he predate the son? Did God make an exception? Is he part of Everything (that was made through the Son)?

Every time I think that I am folllowing the argument, the rules seem to change.

 

[Deeje]

You are driving me crazy.
I have enough trouble following scripture as written.
These sliding JW doctrines are very frustrating.

Only compared to what you have probably always believed....taught by Christendom.
Everyone assumes that this is Christianity...they could not be further from the truth.

When Jesus came the first time, he led sincere Jews away from apostate Judaism and gave them spiritual food that was nourishing....nothing like what the Pharisees fed them.

Did you never wonder why Jesus was sent exclusively to "the lost sheep of the house of Israel"? How did the sheep become lost in the first place? The Pharisees were so busy looking after themselves and maintaining their own positions of favor, that they neglected the starving sheep that they were supposed to feed an water. Stressing legalism and man-made tradition over the word of God, Jesus had nothing good to say about them and predicted many woes for their neglectful shepherding. (Matt 23:13-33)

Christendom is a mirror image of Judaism, steeped in man made traditions and ignoring the teachings of the Christ in an attempt to stay friends with the world, (James 4:4) they claim Jesus as their Lord, but fail to obey him in everything.

Did God (the Father) create Jesus the Son?

Yes. He is the "begetter" of his unique son....his first and only direct creation. The Logos was "with God" "in the beginning" so since God himself is eternal (having no beginning or end) The son was with his Father before all other things came into being...at the "beginning" of creation.

The apostle Paul described Jesus at Col 1:16, 17, saying: "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him."
Creation came "through him" but not from him. Its called agency....God created all things through the agency of his son.

Did Jesus (the Son of God) create all other things?

Yes. If you note in Genesis 1:26, that Yahweh said "Let US make man in OUR image, according to OUR likeness"....God was obviously not alone.
Prov 8:22, 30, 31 tells us who was working alongside him as a "skilled craftsman" ....

"“The Lord made me at the beginning of His creation, before His works of long ago.....I was a skilled craftsman beside Him. I was His delight every day, always rejoicing before Him. I was rejoicing in His inhabited world, delighting in the human race."

Rev 3:14 calls Jesus "the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God".

So several scriptures point to Jesus as a created being, working closely with his Father in carrying out the divine will.

So who the heck created Adam?

God did through the agency of his son. This is the "us" and "our".

Does he predate the son?

Nothing and no one predates the son except the Father.

Did God make an exception? Is he part of Everything (that was made through the Son)?

All things came into existence through the son, who was created by his Father....therefore the Father had to come first, then he brought forth his firstborn son.....Is that a difficult concept?

Every time I think that I am following the argument, the rules seem to change.

That's what being too long in Christendom does to you.

 

[katiemygirl]

="Deeje, post: 4567967, member: 18814"] Yes. He is the "begetter" of his unique son....his first and only direct creation.

What exactly does Son of God mean to you?

That's what being too long in Christendom does to you.

Do you consider yourself a Christian? If so, then you are a part of that Christendom you seem to greatly abhor.

 

[james2ko]

You are driving me crazy.
I have enough trouble following scripture as written.These sliding JW doctrines are very frustrating.

Did God (the Father) create Jesus the Son? Did Jesus (the Son of God) create all other things?
So who the heck created Adam? Does he predate the son? Did God make an exception? Is he part of Everything (that was made through the Son)?

Every time I think that I am following the argument, the rules seem to change.

I suppose that by the same questionable reasoning one could also say that Eve was not alive or created, because the Bible says she was the mother of all living.” (Gen 3:20). Eve was not the mother of either herself or Adam. Could we logically conclude she was the mother of all "other" living human beings?

It would be just as illogical to conclude Christ is not created simply because the Bible says “all things were created through him” (Col 1:16 ASV). Could we equally conclude all "other" things were created through him? Especially since Christ and Paul assert He was the Father's first creative act (Rev 3:14; Col 1:15). Created as a one of a kind God/YHVH (Isa 43:10-11), before time began (2 Ti 1:9; Tit 1:2). The Father and Son/Logos then created everything else (angels, universe-- time (Gen 1:1 Joh 1:1-3)

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Jesus is the ONLY begotten Son of God. He is not a son of God like angels.

You continue to belittle Him, equating Him with human beings and now angels.

I worship the Father, through His Son. It would be impossible to worship Jehovah without going through Jesus. Jesus is the way to the Father. When you worship the Father, you are worshiping the Son. We read in the gospels and in the letters that Jesus was worshiped. He was also prayed to.

You have not told us what it means to be the Son of God.

A son gets life from a father. Right or wrong?

And what does "only begotten" mean?

"Only-begotten Son of God" -- you know, if Paul, Peter, and the other writers of the Greek Testament wanted to indicate that Jesus and His Father were equal, but keep the familial closeness, they would have called them brothers.

And, that reminds me: Paul says Jesus has "brothers", those who will rule with Him in the Heavens. (Hebrews 2:11-12)
Would God have brothers? No!
What a cloudy, ambiguous understanding of the Scriptures, trinitarians have!
Even the simple words of John 17:3 -- part of Jesus' prayer to His Father, not Himself) -- are obfuscated when applying a trinitarians slant. Because His words to his Father, ".....you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent forth", now make no sense; " "only" doesn't mean "only"

///////////////:///////////////

Here is just one more proof of the many throughout the Scripture, which show Christ is Jehovah.

The Apostle John quotes Isaiah 6 in his gospel.

John 12
37 But though He had performed so many signs before them, yet they were not believing in Him. 38 This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke: “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT? AND TO WHOM HAS THE ARM OF THE LORD BEEN REVEALED?” 39 For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again, 40 “HE HAS BLINDED THEIR EYESAND HE HARDENED THEIR HEART, SO THAT THEY WOULD NOT SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND PERCEIVE WITH THEIR HEART, AND BE CONVERTED AND I HEAL THEM.” 41 These things Isaiah said because he saw His glory, and he spoke of Him.42 Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing Him, for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue; 43 for they loved the approval of men rather than the approval of God.

44 And Jesus cried out and said, “He who believes in Me, does not believe in Me but in Him who sent Me. 45 “He who sees Me sees the One who sent Me. (NAS)

Who is the “Him” that many of the rulers put their faith in verse 42?

Is it not the same "Him" as in v. 41?

It is Jesus Christ who is being referred to as Jehovah. There is no shift in the context. It was the same “Him” that the people were putting their faith in verses 36-37, who is the Lord Jesus Christ.

It was for believing in Jesus that one was kicked out of the synagogue .

Not only that, Jesus goes on to proclaim in verse 45 that to see Him is to see the Father. Why? Because they are both Jehovah!

This is tiring.

Only when wearing rose-colored glasses, and ignoring the rest of the Scriptures.
Read Matthew 10:40. Then read Acts of the Apostles 9:4-5. Applying your reasoning, Jesus is now the disciples.

John 10:30, "I and the Father are one." Trinitarians say, "See? They're the same!"
But reading John 17:20-22 clarifies things. There are one in the sense of purpose, and unity.

Context is always needed. And by 'context' I mean the whole Bible.

Heck, you can't begin to understand who the serpent in Genesis is, until you read
John 8:44, and especially Revelation 12:9.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

I suppose that by the same questionable reasoning one could also say that Eve was not alive or created, because the Bible says she was the mother of all living.” (Gen 3:20). Eve was not the mother of either herself or Adam. Could we logically conclude she was the mother of all "other" living human beings?

It would be just as illogical to conclude Christ is not created simply because the Bible says “all things were created through him” (Col 1:16 ASV). Could we equally conclude all "other" things were created through him? Especially since Christ and Paul assert He was the Father's first creative act (Rev 3:14; Col 1:15). Created as a one of a kind God/YHVH (Isa 43:10-11), before time began (2 Ti 1:9; Tit 1:2). The Father and Son/Logos then created everything else (angels, universe-- time (Gen 1:1 Joh 1:1-3)

James2ko, that is superb reasoning! Yes, the meaning at Genesis 3:20 is clear.

As Luke said regarding Paul at Acts of the Apostles 17:2-3, "he reasoned with them from the Scriptures." What a fine example you provided of logical reasoning!!