Psalms are a bad source of absolute literal truths.
Much of the language is full of metaphors and non-literal symbolism.
Does God have feathers? In the Psalms he longs to gather under his wings.
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Is Jesus God?
- Thread starter Orbit
- Start date
Much of the language is full of metaphors and non-literal symbolism.
Does God have feathers? In the Psalms he longs to gather under his wings.
You think the devil doesn't know that?.....he has you all breaking the first Commandment....placing another God in the same position as the Father. (Ex 20:3) The way he pulls the swifty is to present three gods as one. The truth is, there never were three gods in one head. That doctrine is made up.
The name "Yahweh" is not ever applied to Jesus in the scriptures. It is Jesus who applies it to his Father whom he calls "the only true God".(John 17:3) In answer to the devil's temptation, Jesus replied..."Jesus answered him, “It is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God and serve Him only.’”
By saying "It is written" Jesus was quoting the Hebrew scriptures....Deut 20:10, where the tetragrammaton is found. So YHWH "only" is "the Lord your God" that all must worship.
God has just one name, which he said was to be his memorial (by which he was to be remembered) "forever". (Ex 3:15) No other name is ever given for the Father.
Jesus on the other hand, has had many names, all connected to his role in the various assignments given him by his Father. Even after his return to heaven, he is given another "new name". (Rev 3:12)
The holy spirit is nameless. So what you have is "God the Father" mentioned clearly in the Bible, but never "God the Son"...and never "God the Holy Spirit". Humans invented those terms.
Yes I believe I mentioned that. But there is no qualification in the Bible that makes this application to Jesus any different to any other "firstborn". It is the same with "monogenes" (only begotten) it is not applied to Jesus in a different way than what it is applied to all the other "only begotten" children in the Bible. Do you know why? Because the Bible was not written with a trinity in mind....there was no trinity to prove or disprove...it simply didn't exist. If you didn't force it into scripture, you would not find it even mentioned.
These have all been done to death.
None of these prove that Jesus is God...especially not John 8:58.
Do you know how many times Jesus said "I am"? An allusion to Ex 3:14 would be him saying "I Will Be" or "I Will Become" because YHWH never meant "I Am" in the first place.
YHWH (Jehovah in English) is the causative form, the imperfect state, of the Heb. verb ha·wahʹ (become); meaning “He Causes to Be" or "Become”. It not a statement of his being but a statement of his intent to "become" whatever is necessary to accomplish his purpose.
So many have been duped into believing a lie.
You think the devil doesn't know that?.....he has you all breaking the first Commandment....placing another God in the same position as the Father. (Ex 20:3) The way he pulls the swifty is to present three gods as one. The truth is, there never were three gods in one head. That doctrine is made up.
The name "Yahweh" is not ever applied to Jesus in the scriptures. It is Jesus who applies it to his Father whom he calls "the only true God".(John 17:3) In answer to the devil's temptation, Jesus replied..."Jesus answered him, “It is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God and serve Him only.’”
By saying "It is written" Jesus was quoting the Hebrew scriptures....Deut 20:10, where the tetragrammaton is found. So YHWH "only" is "the Lord your God" that all must worship.
God has just one name, which he said was to be his memorial (by which he was to be remembered) "forever". (Ex 3:15) No other name is ever given for the Father.
Jesus on the other hand, has had many names, all connected to his role in the various assignments given him by his Father. Even after his return to heaven, he is given another "new name". (Rev 3:12)
The holy spirit is nameless. So what you have is "God the Father" mentioned clearly in the Bible, but never "God the Son"...and never "God the Holy Spirit". Humans invented those terms.
Yes I believe I mentioned that. But there is no qualification in the Bible that makes this application to Jesus any different to any other "firstborn". It is the same with "monogenes" (only begotten) it is not applied to Jesus in a different way than what it is applied to all the other "only begotten" children in the Bible. Do you know why? Because the Bible was not written with a trinity in mind....there was no trinity to prove or disprove...it simply didn't exist. If you didn't force it into scripture, you would not find it even mentioned.
These have all been done to death.
None of these prove that Jesus is God...especially not John 8:58.
Do you know how many times Jesus said "I am"? An allusion to Ex 3:14 would be him saying "I Will Be" or "I Will Become" because YHWH never meant "I Am" in the first place.
YHWH (Jehovah in English) is the causative form, the imperfect state, of the Heb. verb ha·wahʹ (become); meaning “He Causes to Be" or "Become”. It not a statement of his being but a statement of his intent to "become" whatever is necessary to accomplish his purpose.
So many have been duped into believing a lie.
Very good post!
There are over one BILLION trinitarians professing Christianity, the vast majority of the 43,000 sects of Christendom. And how many of these really follow Jesus' command, to "love your enemy", or even to love their brothers (Matthew 5:44; John 13:34-35; John 15:10; John 15:14)? For the past 1600+ years, trinitarians have joined with their respective countries, and KILLED others, even their brothers! They've considered their national "heritage" more important than their spiritual "heritage", supporting their 'brothers-in-arms' over their spiritual brothers.....Catholics against Catholics, Protestants against Protestants.
Interesting that at John 13:34-35, Jesus said "all will know" His disciples, not by what they teach (although that is important), but by how they act -- how they love their brothers! How strange, the ones worshipping Jesus as God are, for the most part, less obedient than those who don't, who rather solely worship His Father, through Him!
It's difficult to be politically neutral, especially in the face of nationalism during a war, but obedience to God, and Jesus, doesn't stop just because it's unpopular, and causes hatred among others! Jesus said it would (John 15:17-19).
Reminds me of a G.K. Chesterton quote: "Christianity hasn't been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and not tried."
Thanda
Well-Known Member
Do you believe that Jesus when on earth was 100% human? Was he also 100% God? Because this is what doesn't add up. Jesus wasn't 200% anything.
He did not have to be God to offer his life for us...all he had to be was Adam's equal....sinless.
The sacrifice that Jesus made had to be infinite and eternal, in order to cover for the punishment of God which is also infinite and eternal. Only an infinite and eternal being could make such a sacrifice. This is the symbolism behind him not having an earthly Father. If it were not so then the writers of the Gospels wouldn't have jumped through hoops trying to convince people of something that has never happened before - that a person was born without an earthly father.
Jesus is not Adam's equal, not by a long shot.
Firstly you're not making sense. Just now you were trying to convince me Jesus can't have been 100% human and 100% God. Now you're trying to convince me that he can?
Secondly I have not said Jesus is a God (big "g") because of His divinity - else I would have to make all the angels Gods too. My reasons for calling him a God are quite straight forward. He is the omnipotent, omniscient, all-benevolent being. He is the creator of the universe. And he is also a member of the Godhead. Each of the last two traits alone would qualify him for the title of a God. He has both. The Holy Ghost, being a member of the Godhead, as well as omnipotent, omniscient and all-benevolent, is also a God.
I have never called Jesus the Supreme Sovereign. It is quite clear from Jesus own words that he considered only one Being to be the Supreme Being of the universe. And I do not dispute it. It is specifically in this sense that the Father is "the only true God".
Thanda
Well-Known Member
If he has no weakness then he has what it takes to be called a god (small "g"). But as I have mentioned before, what qualifies him to be a called a God (big "G") is his role as the creator of all things and a member of the God. I think his role as the Redeemer of all is also perhaps a qualifies (in any event that is His unique role in the Godhead).
I certainly would not deny an omnipotent, omniscient, all-benevolent, creator and redeemer the big "G".
I believe that you are basing your belief on a wrong premise. Can you show me in the Bible where it requires an "infinite and eternal sacrifice" to cover what Adam did?
In 1 Cor 15:42-49, speaking of the resurrection of those dead in Christ, and in line for a heavenly resurrection, Paul says: "It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. 47 The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly."
The comparison between Adam and Jesus is clear here.
Matt 20:28 : "just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”
Do you understand what the "ransom" is? A ransom is the price paid for the release of a captive. It is deemed to be the equivalent to what that person's life is worth.
It is what is demanded by the one holding the person captive. If he demanded 5 million dollars, then what fool would pay him 50 million?
When you understand the mechanics of the ransom, you understand that God's law demanded "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, life for a life". Equivalency balanced the scales of justice. Adam was told that if he sinned, he would pay with his life.....he did and he eventually died because of his loss of perfection (sin is what introduced death).
But Adam's children inherited his defect...sin. Who could offer an equal life for Adam's children, born in sin through no fault on their part. (Rom 5:12) He caused the deaths of his children but no one was his equivalent to pay for their lives.
God stepped in and offered the life of his perfect son to redeem Adam's children. Jesus willingly accepted the role of Messiah and redeemer because of his love for mankind. God willingly offered his son for the same reason. (John 3:16)
As the scripture in 1 Cor says, "the first Adam became a living soul. The "last Adam (Jesus) became a life-givng spirit".
The ransom did not require the death of God, but the life of a human equivalent to Adam. This is why Jesus came from heaven to be born as a human child. Not just any life could be offered but a kinsman of the one responsible for death.....a perfect equivalent...."a life for a life".
The reason why Jesus could not have an earthly father is because Jesus had to be born sinless but still be a descendant of Adam. Coming from a human mother made Jesus Jewish....a descendant of Abraham as was prophesied.
God offered the figurative 5 million demanded...not the 50 million that was not required. To offer the life of God for mere humans is an enormous amount of overkill.
It was not demanded and not offered. It is also a bit strange to think that mere humans could kill God.
You are confusing "divinity" with "deity". Jesus is the divine son of God...but he is not an equal part of Almighty God. Jesus is a god (a divine mighty one) but he is not and never has been part of a godhead. Please show me where it says this in the Bible.
I cannot find anything in the Bible to suggest that Jesus is omnipotent or omniscient. His Father is both of those things, but Jesus was not. Any power Jesus demonstrated was given to him through holy spirit, which was imparted at his baptism. Prior to that Jesus was not a miracle worker. His own siblings did not believe in him at first because he was just their big brother. Jesus had no authority either except that which was given to him. (Matt 28:18)
Jesus is not all knowing because the Bible says that the Father knew things that the son did not. (Matt 24:36) He is very benevolent though, just like his Father. We love him for that.
I believe that you will not find Jesus referred to as the Creator even once in the Bible. It says that creation came "through" him, but not from him. He was the agency that God used to create all things....God's master craftsman was working at his side. (Prov 8:22, 30, 31; Col 1:15, 16)
Where will I find that stated in the scriptures? There is no "godhead"....it is a mistranslation of the Greek word is "Thei·oʹtes" which means "divinity, divine nature" according to Strongs Concordance. Jesus has a divine nature as God's son but he is not part of a godhead. Men made that up.
Sorry, but he has neither of those traits. This is what Christendom teaches, but it isn't what the Bible teaches.
He is a god, but not as you describe him.
There is no such thing as the "Holy Ghost". There are no ghosts of any description in God's word. There is God's holy spirit, which is the application of God's divine power used in accomplishing his will. It is imparted to men so that they too can do God's will. It fills people and can empower them to perform supernatural feats. It can be passed on to others. It is also given in measure.
When you take the sum total of what holy spirit accomplished in the Bible you can see clearly that it is not a person.
Then how can Jesus be an equal part of a trinity? Do you have your own definition of this teaching? They are all supposed to be co-equal and co-eternal, when the scriptures clearly show that they are not equals in any way. Jesus never claimed equality with his superior Father...his God. (John 20:17; Rev 3:12)
Intojoy
Member
No that's wrong.
God cannot have the full measure of a relationship with fallen man because of the violation of God's holiness. The love of God is restricted by the holiness of God and in order for man to receive the fullness of God's love there must first be the satisfying of God's justice. And that required the life of the offender, Adam died immediately as soon as he ate the forbidden fruit. Immediately Adam's spirit within his body became dead to God and alive to Satan. Within a thousand years Adam's body died.
The only one who can satisfy the justice of God was God himself.
God cannot have the full measure of a relationship with fallen man because of the violation of God's holiness. The love of God is restricted by the holiness of God and in order for man to receive the fullness of God's love there must first be the satisfying of God's justice. And that required the life of the offender, Adam died immediately as soon as he ate the forbidden fruit. Immediately Adam's spirit within his body became dead to God and alive to Satan. Within a thousand years Adam's body died.
The only one who can satisfy the justice of God was God himself.
katiemygirl
CHRISTIAN
Exodus 34:14 we are to worship no one but Jehovah
Hebrews 1:6 the angels worship Christ
Hebrews 1:6 the angels worship Christ
moorea944
Well-Known Member
I totally disagree. We know what the Godhead is in 1 Cor 11. Jesus didnt create the heavens and the earth, God did. Yaweh did. Scripture even tells us that.
Blessed by the God AND Father of our Lord Jesus Christ......
james2ko
Well-Known Member
1. I believe YHVH is the Father's name whom He distributes to other "God/YHVH" family members, which includes angels (Eph 3:14-15; 1 Co 8:5). Christ was the first created YHVH of the family. We find additional evidence of this family name concept in Abraham and Lot's encounter with multiple angelic YHVH's in Gen 18 and 19, where in some passages the term YHVH was much later changed to adonai.
2.. Keep reading the Psalm to vs 5. The term you see referring to Jesus in all of our English bibles today as "Lord" [adonai], in vs 5, was actually YHVH in much earlier Hebrew manuscripts. It was changed by the Sopherim (scribes) out of extreme reverence for the name YHVH (google "134 emendations of the Sopherim").
When all five verses are read in context, Jesus is not only David's adonai but also his YHVH! Gen 18 and 19 also contain these alterations, which to me are a game changer, when it comes to our Savior's identity.
3. It would seem so, on the surface. But based on the evidence in points 1 and 2, the question in Ps 83 now becomes which YHVH-Father or son? Unfortunately there are no first and last names assigned to the YHVH family members.
This makes it very difficult, if not impossible, at times to distinguish between the YHVH's.Context and careful reading of the scriptures will sometimes identify the YHVH being referenced (i.e. The Father, Christ, or angelic beings).
In Ps 83:18, the Hebrew term "alone" is not always utilized in an absolute, exclusive sense. Sometimes it must be defined from the author's perspective, as was common in ancient Hebrew thought. In other words to the author, His name alone is YHVH.
We see this thought pattern in Ps 136:3-4--is Christ the "only" YHVH who does great wonders? Of course not. Or is He the only YHVH from the author's experience/perspective who does great wonders?
Ps 83:18 is one of those difficult passages. Is the author making an absolute statement that The Father's name alone is YHVH? We know this would be inconsistent as there are other beings referred to as YHVH. Or is the passage relaying the fact that from the author's experience and perspective, His [Christ's] name alone is YHVH and to the author, is the most high over all the "land"?
4. Due to foundational doctrinal differences, never was and never will be. Although I do believe in some of their minor doctrines.
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katiemygirl
CHRISTIAN
JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES
Considering we have a fair amount of Jehovah's Witnesses posting on this thread, I thought it good to post from their own literature. Here is what they have to say.
"He is also God's 'only-begotten' Son in that he is the only one directly created by Jehovah God; all other things came into existence through him as God's Chief Agent" (The Truth that Leads to Eternal Life [Truth] [Brooklyn: Watchtower Bible and Tract society of New York, 1968], p. 47).
According to Watchtower, God's "only begotten Son" means Jesus is the only one directly created by Jehovah God.
Monogenes does not translate as "only one created by God."
Monogenes:
Combination of two words: "monos" which means "only" or "alone," and "genos" which means "of the same nature, kind, sort, species" (Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon)
Jesus, the Son of God is a unique and one of a kind being.
The second century Old Latin version translates all nine occurences of monogenes as UNICUS, which means unique.
Monogenes has nothing to do with origin as does the English word begotten. Instead the word monogenes affirms that Jesus Christ is the unique, only one of His kind, Son of God.
◄ 3439. monogenés ►
Strong's Concordance
monogenés: only begotten
Original Word: μονογενής, ές
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: monogenés
Phonetic Spelling: (mon-og-en-ace')
Short Definition: only, only-begotten, unique
Definition: only, only-begotten; unique
What sources do JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES have to support their definition of monogenes?
Considering we have a fair amount of Jehovah's Witnesses posting on this thread, I thought it good to post from their own literature. Here is what they have to say.
"He is also God's 'only-begotten' Son in that he is the only one directly created by Jehovah God; all other things came into existence through him as God's Chief Agent" (The Truth that Leads to Eternal Life [Truth] [Brooklyn: Watchtower Bible and Tract society of New York, 1968], p. 47).
According to Watchtower, God's "only begotten Son" means Jesus is the only one directly created by Jehovah God.
Monogenes does not translate as "only one created by God."
Monogenes:
Combination of two words: "monos" which means "only" or "alone," and "genos" which means "of the same nature, kind, sort, species" (Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon)
Jesus, the Son of God is a unique and one of a kind being.
The second century Old Latin version translates all nine occurences of monogenes as UNICUS, which means unique.
Monogenes has nothing to do with origin as does the English word begotten. Instead the word monogenes affirms that Jesus Christ is the unique, only one of His kind, Son of God.
◄ 3439. monogenés ►
Strong's Concordance
monogenés: only begotten
Original Word: μονογενής, ές
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: monogenés
Phonetic Spelling: (mon-og-en-ace')
Short Definition: only, only-begotten, unique
Definition: only, only-begotten; unique
What sources do JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES have to support their definition of monogenes?
james2ko
Well-Known Member
I'm not nor was I ever a JW. So I'll use the scriptures for evidence, if it's ok with you.
The context and syntax of Isa 43:10-11 seems to apply both concepts-- Christ is a one of kind, unique creation of God.katiemygirl
CHRISTIAN
WAS JESUS CREATED OR WAS HE THE FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION?
Not ONE time do the Scriptures say the words "Jesus was created." EVER!
These are the words of Jehovah's Witnesses and other cultists.
Their claim is supported by two Bible verses, Colossians 1:15 and Revelation 3:14.
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. Colossians 1:15
The word prōtotokos firstborn in this verse does not refer to a physical birth. It refers to Jesus' position. In Jewish law, the firstborn inherited the lion's share of his father's estate. Jesus is to inherit the creation. The scriptures, and Jesus Himself, affirmed that He was heir to the creation. Firstborn of all creation has nothing to do with being created.
Verse 18 from this same chapter describes Jesus as being the firstborn from the dead and defines Him as having first place in everything. Firstborn refers to position and not creation.
◄ 4416. prototokos ►
Strong's Concordance
prototokos: first-born
Original Word: πρωτότοκος, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: prototokos
Phonetic Spelling: (pro-tot-ok'-os)
Short Definition: first-born
Definition: first-born, eldest.
HELPS Word-studies
4416 prōtótokos (from 4413 /prṓtos, "first, pre-eminent" and 5088 /tíktō, "bring forth") – properly, first in time (Mt 1:25; Lk 2:7); hence, pre-eminent (Col 1:15; Rev 1:5).
"To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this: Revelation 3:14
◄ 746. arché ►
Strong's Concordance
arché: beginning, origin
Original Word: ἀρχή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: arché
Phonetic Spelling: (ar-khay')
Short Definition: ruler, beginning
Definition: (a) rule (kingly or magisterial), (b) plur: in a quasi-personal sense, almost: rulers, magistrates, (c) beginning.
Beginning does not refer to Jesus' creation. The Greek word arche means first in position or leader. Alternate meanings include origin or cause. So, in this verse, Jesus is presenting His authority over creation as Creator.
The two verses cited by by Jehovah's Witnesses have nothing to do with the topic of Jesus' origin. The first is taken out of the context of the chapter, which clearly defines firstborn as first in position. The second assumes an incorrect meaning for the English translation of the original Greek text.
Not ONE time do the Scriptures say the words "Jesus was created." EVER!
These are the words of Jehovah's Witnesses and other cultists.
Their claim is supported by two Bible verses, Colossians 1:15 and Revelation 3:14.
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. Colossians 1:15
The word prōtotokos firstborn in this verse does not refer to a physical birth. It refers to Jesus' position. In Jewish law, the firstborn inherited the lion's share of his father's estate. Jesus is to inherit the creation. The scriptures, and Jesus Himself, affirmed that He was heir to the creation. Firstborn of all creation has nothing to do with being created.
Verse 18 from this same chapter describes Jesus as being the firstborn from the dead and defines Him as having first place in everything. Firstborn refers to position and not creation.
◄ 4416. prototokos ►
Strong's Concordance
prototokos: first-born
Original Word: πρωτότοκος, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: prototokos
Phonetic Spelling: (pro-tot-ok'-os)
Short Definition: first-born
Definition: first-born, eldest.
HELPS Word-studies
4416 prōtótokos (from 4413 /prṓtos, "first, pre-eminent" and 5088 /tíktō, "bring forth") – properly, first in time (Mt 1:25; Lk 2:7); hence, pre-eminent (Col 1:15; Rev 1:5).
"To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this: Revelation 3:14
◄ 746. arché ►
Strong's Concordance
arché: beginning, origin
Original Word: ἀρχή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: arché
Phonetic Spelling: (ar-khay')
Short Definition: ruler, beginning
Definition: (a) rule (kingly or magisterial), (b) plur: in a quasi-personal sense, almost: rulers, magistrates, (c) beginning.
Beginning does not refer to Jesus' creation. The Greek word arche means first in position or leader. Alternate meanings include origin or cause. So, in this verse, Jesus is presenting His authority over creation as Creator.
The two verses cited by by Jehovah's Witnesses have nothing to do with the topic of Jesus' origin. The first is taken out of the context of the chapter, which clearly defines firstborn as first in position. The second assumes an incorrect meaning for the English translation of the original Greek text.
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katiemygirl
CHRISTIAN
JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES
Considering we have a fair amount of Jehovah's Witnesses posting on this thread, I thought it good to post from their own literature. Here is what they have to say.
"He is also God's 'only-begotten' Son in that he is the only one directly created by Jehovah God; all other things came into existence through him as God's Chief Agent" (The Truth that Leads to Eternal Life [Truth] [Brooklyn: Watchtower Bible and Tract society of New York, 1968], p. 47).
According to Watchtower, God's "only begotten Son" means Jesus is the only one directly created by Jehovah God.
Monogenes does not translate as "only one created by God."
Monogenes:
Combination of two words: "monos" which means "only" or "alone," and "genos" which means "of the same nature, kind, sort, species" (Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon)
Jesus, the Son of God is a unique and one of a kind being.
The second century Old Latin version translates all nine occurences of monogenes as UNICUS, which means unique.
Monogenes has nothing to do with origin as does the English word begotten. Instead the word monogenes affirms that Jesus Christ is the unique, only one of His kind, Son of God.
◄ 3439. monogenés ►
Strong's Concordance
monogenés: only begotten
Original Word: μονογενής, ές
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: monogenés
Phonetic Spelling: (mon-og-en-ace')
Short Definition: only, only-begotten, unique
Definition: only, only-begotten; unique
What sources do JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES have to support their definition of monogenes?
Considering we have a fair amount of Jehovah's Witnesses posting on this thread, I thought it good to post from their own literature. Here is what they have to say.
"He is also God's 'only-begotten' Son in that he is the only one directly created by Jehovah God; all other things came into existence through him as God's Chief Agent" (The Truth that Leads to Eternal Life [Truth] [Brooklyn: Watchtower Bible and Tract society of New York, 1968], p. 47).
According to Watchtower, God's "only begotten Son" means Jesus is the only one directly created by Jehovah God.
Monogenes does not translate as "only one created by God."
Monogenes:
Combination of two words: "monos" which means "only" or "alone," and "genos" which means "of the same nature, kind, sort, species" (Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon)
Jesus, the Son of God is a unique and one of a kind being.
The second century Old Latin version translates all nine occurences of monogenes as UNICUS, which means unique.
Monogenes has nothing to do with origin as does the English word begotten. Instead the word monogenes affirms that Jesus Christ is the unique, only one of His kind, Son of God.
◄ 3439. monogenés ►
Strong's Concordance
monogenés: only begotten
Original Word: μονογενής, ές
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: monogenés
Phonetic Spelling: (mon-og-en-ace')
Short Definition: only, only-begotten, unique
Definition: only, only-begotten; unique
What sources do JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES have to support their definition of monogenes?
james2ko
Well-Known Member
Oh I see. Did I make it to your ignore list? That is usually a consequence of truth about to break down the doors of tradition. If not, I can see how you would rather discuss it with an actual JW who has to quote their sources instead of a non JW who will parse and quote the scriptures Still luv ya KG....
Still luv ya KG....
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Crypto2015
Active Member
Jesus is identified as Yahweh in the Scriptures. For example, in John 12:41 it says: "Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus' glory and spoke about him." What Isaiah saw is described in Isaiah 6:
In the year that King Uzziah died I saw the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up; and the train of his robe filled the temple. Above him stood the seraphim. Each had six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew.And one called to another and said: “Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of hosts; the whole earth is full of his glory!” And the foundations of the thresholds shook at the voice of him who called, and the house was filled with smoke. And I said: “Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts!” (Isaiah 6:1-5)
The word LORD is Yahweh in the original Hebrew. If you don't believe in the New Testament, think about this: why was Isaiah so afraid of having seen God? The answer is that he knew this:
"And He said, "I Myself will make all My goodness pass before you, and will proclaim the name of the LORD before you; and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show compassion on whom I will show compassion." But He said, "You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!" (Exodus 33:19-20)
Why did Isaiah saw Yahweh and survived? Because he saw Jesus:
"The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation." (Colossians 1:15)
If you still have doubts about what I am saying, I have tons of other Old Testament verses to show you.
Crypto2015
Active Member
You think the devil doesn't know that?.....he has you all breaking the first Commandment....placing another God in the same position as the Father. (Ex 20:3) The way he pulls the swifty is to present three gods as one. The truth is, there never were three gods in one head. That doctrine is made up.
The name "Yahweh" is not ever applied to Jesus in the scriptures. It is Jesus who applies it to his Father whom he calls "the only true God".(John 17:3) In answer to the devil's temptation, Jesus replied..."Jesus answered him, “It is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God and serve Him only.’”
By saying "It is written" Jesus was quoting the Hebrew scriptures....Deut 20:10, where the tetragrammaton is found. So YHWH "only" is "the Lord your God" that all must worship.
God has just one name, which he said was to be his memorial (by which he was to be remembered) "forever". (Ex 3:15) No other name is ever given for the Father.
Jesus on the other hand, has had many names, all connected to his role in the various assignments given him by his Father. Even after his return to heaven, he is given another "new name". (Rev 3:12)
The holy spirit is nameless. So what you have is "God the Father" mentioned clearly in the Bible, but never "God the Son"...and never "God the Holy Spirit". Humans invented those terms.
Yes I believe I mentioned that. But there is no qualification in the Bible that makes this application to Jesus any different to any other "firstborn". It is the same with "monogenes" (only begotten) it is not applied to Jesus in a different way than what it is applied to all the other "only begotten" children in the Bible. Do you know why? Because the Bible was not written with a trinity in mind....there was no trinity to prove or disprove...it simply didn't exist. If you didn't force it into scripture, you would not find it even mentioned.
These have all been done to death.
None of these prove that Jesus is God...especially not John 8:58.
Do you know how many times Jesus said "I am"? An allusion to Ex 3:14 would be him saying "I Will Be" or "I Will Become" because YHWH never meant "I Am" in the first place.
YHWH (Jehovah in English) is the causative form, the imperfect state, of the Heb. verb ha·wahʹ (become); meaning “He Causes to Be" or "Become”. It not a statement of his being but a statement of his intent to "become" whatever is necessary to accomplish his purpose.
So many have been duped into believing a lie.
Just read the post above this one.
katiemygirl
CHRISTIAN
He has been shown repeatedly since the thread began. He has hardened his heart. Only the Lord can get him to see.
I posted Isaiah 6 and John 12:41, but it did not sink in.
Jehovah's Witnesses and the other cultists on this thread refuse the truth.
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Crypto2015
Active Member
Oh, I didn't know it had been posted already. That passage is as clear as water to me and I think that to 99% of the people as well. It is a pity that they refuse to see what's so evident.
katiemygirl
CHRISTIAN
I'm glad you posted it! Maybe it will help someone who is borderline in their thinking.
Regardless of how may ways you show these people who Jesus is, it doesn't matter. They will trash the passages, applying their own meanings to Greek and Hebrew words.
Rather than argue, I find it better to post the truth and let it fall on the ears of those who the Lord intends it to fall..
I figure if the Apostle John can't convince the cultists, who am I to get them to see the truth.