Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
And I should accept Roman Catholic doctrine because . . . . . . .? Because, I'm a Roman Catholic? I'm not even a Christian, though I have nothing but respect for Christ.
Regards,
Scott
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
is jesus god ?
- Thread starter musharraf
- Start date
And I should accept Roman Catholic doctrine because . . . . . . .? Because, I'm a Roman Catholic? I'm not even a Christian, though I have nothing but respect for Christ.
Regards,
Scott
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
I don't really mean to state the obvious.....but this does nothing for those who don't adhere to catholic doctrine or tradition.
There were other traditions in existence before the christian church finalized on doctrine.
Te Deum
Roman Catholic Seminarian
And I should accept Roman Catholic doctrine because . . . . . . .? Because, I'm a Roman Catholic? I'm not even a Christian, though I have nothing but respect for Christ.
Regards,
Scott
I am just pointing out for readers that all true Christians indeed believe in the Trinity. Heretics are outside of the Christianity because they are heretics. I know that not everyone is Catholic, but the Catholic Church has its origins at the time of Christ. It is founded by our Lord on St. Peter's confession of faith, and the Catholic Church has the authority to declare such matters.
Francine
Well-Known Member
Do you think when doctrines are discussed here on RF that you are expected to abide by them?
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
When doctrine is discussed I am not required to abide by them nor am I required to accept them as prrof of anything. Doctrine and dogma are two sides of a coin that most use without paying attention to which side is facing up.
If it offends you to have that pointed out, try a Catholic only forum.
Regards,
Scott
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
The Nestorian, Ebionite and Arian churches have the same origin in history that the Catholic church has and all of them accept Peter as the foremost disciple.
Now perhaps you might give us a short version of the Petrine Confession of Faith so we might discuss it historically and determine its language for ourselves?
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
I suspect it is the opposite. Before the church agreed upon doctrine there were other traditions in existence. These groups practiced their way of life before the church solidified. Later when the church decided what would be considered the word of God and what wouldn't (compiling the scriptures in one book - bible) theses groups had long held their traditions and had scriptures in their communities. The church labeled them heretics especially when it came to the "divinity" of the Messiah. These groups said NO he was not God and were labeled heretics.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
No they don't. Give me ANY evidence at all that Christ's Apostles believed in the Trinity. Or maybe they weren't "true Christians."
Troublemane
Well-Known Member
well actually it was elohim that said that in genesis, not god the father/son/holy spirit. and later, when he says 'behold, the man is become one of us,to know good and evil" (gen 3:22) who is god talking with? the serpent. did the serpent lie when he told adam and eve they would not die when they ate the fruit, but become like god?--actually, it was god who lied to them. the serpent told the truth!
the other personalities (the holy spirit and the son) did not exist in the original genesis account but had to be re-interpreted to be there, due to jesus' (supposed)claims in john8.
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
The serpent was symbolic as was the garden--so was Adam for that matter. And it is the norm in Hebrew for God be PLURAL rather than singular--its a grammar thing.
Regards,
Scott
Troublemane
Well-Known Member
ah, so your saying that its more like the "royal we", in that sense? such as how the queen or king would say "we are not amused" , etc.?
Troublemane
Well-Known Member
..anyhoo, as to the question by the OP, I think yes Jesus was God,100%.....but so are we all. And though Jesus preached this message implicitly (love thy neighbor as thyself, love god above all things, as you do to the least of these so you do unto me, etc.), and therefore gets props for being so insightful, its also clear that his later biographers did NOT share this view as clearly....and so they have Jesus saying and doing things that conflict with this 1st person God view. This does make Jesus seem schizophrenic. Perhaps Jesus himself as having been raised a devout Jew, still prayed the way he was taught, even though the message he was teaching was itself revolutionary?
What is certain however is the gospels are totally confused when it comes to the order of events, its obvious they were written long after the events they describe and their accuracy has to be called into question. Since the later editors had an agenda it may well be that many of Jesus' sayings were added later, as it is known most of the miracles were (which were largely unknown by St. Paul).
What is certain however is the gospels are totally confused when it comes to the order of events, its obvious they were written long after the events they describe and their accuracy has to be called into question. Since the later editors had an agenda it may well be that many of Jesus' sayings were added later, as it is known most of the miracles were (which were largely unknown by St. Paul).
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
Well, I disagree that we are all "god". The Creator is not part of His creation after all.
As to your comments on the origins of the Gospels, in broad strokes I agree. But sixty to one hundred years is not much time for an oral tradition to pass into a written tradition, so I am not so worried that the text has changed so much. Interpretations are not text, yuopu might agree, and interpretations were twisted to amass popular and political assent in the decisions that decided what was Holy writ and what was not.
God can be trusted to protect His words as much as is neccesary.
In short Jesus was not God. I am not God. Moses was not God. Henry Winkler is not God. We were humans, part of creation--NOT the Creator.
Regards,
Scott
Troublemane
Well-Known Member
well, i believe we are all God, because God is all of existence, and if we exist then we are part of God. My contention based on a logical deduction of what God is, if God truly is Omnipotent, Omniscient, Ever-present, Transendent, etc. The only possible answer to all these is if God is 100% co-equal with existence, nothing less or more.
Heres how it goes:
Postulate#1---Anything that is outside of existence does not exist, for existence is defined as anything which is within the bounds of existence.
Postulate#2---Anything within the bounds of existence is subject to the Laws of Nature, and cannot be considered Omnipotent, Omniscient, etc.
Theory----If God cannot be outside of existence (for then it/he/she would be non-existent), nor inside of existence (for then it/he/she would be subject to natural law), it follows logically that God, in order to be omnipotent, etc. MUST be existence itself.
This means everything in existence is part of God, the laws of physics do not contradict Gods plan because they are part of God too, Its God's will that gravity exist, etc. ( i believe jesus said something similar about God knowing everything, all the birds in the sky, every hair on your head, and so on)
And because God is in everything, wills everything, causes everything, its not possible for God to punish mankind, because we are not separate from God in any way. It would be God punishing God, which is impossible. we are fully immersed in God at all times...though we forget that very often!
So Jesus was God, just as we are all God, all equally part of the great/ongoing creation that is the Cosmos.
Heres how it goes:
Postulate#1---Anything that is outside of existence does not exist, for existence is defined as anything which is within the bounds of existence.
Postulate#2---Anything within the bounds of existence is subject to the Laws of Nature, and cannot be considered Omnipotent, Omniscient, etc.
Theory----If God cannot be outside of existence (for then it/he/she would be non-existent), nor inside of existence (for then it/he/she would be subject to natural law), it follows logically that God, in order to be omnipotent, etc. MUST be existence itself.
This means everything in existence is part of God, the laws of physics do not contradict Gods plan because they are part of God too, Its God's will that gravity exist, etc. ( i believe jesus said something similar about God knowing everything, all the birds in the sky, every hair on your head, and so on)
And because God is in everything, wills everything, causes everything, its not possible for God to punish mankind, because we are not separate from God in any way. It would be God punishing God, which is impossible. we are fully immersed in God at all times...though we forget that very often!
So Jesus was God, just as we are all God, all equally part of the great/ongoing creation that is the Cosmos.
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
Postulate #1 is the issue.
What if God was "prexistent"? And all that we think of as "existence" is part of Creation. God was never part of existence in that case, before existence, God was pre-existent--self subsisting with no need of anything else.
In other words, God is not part of existence, existence is part of God.
Regards,
Scott
What if God was "prexistent"? And all that we think of as "existence" is part of Creation. God was never part of existence in that case, before existence, God was pre-existent--self subsisting with no need of anything else.
In other words, God is not part of existence, existence is part of God.
Regards,
Scott
Francine
Well-Known Member
When Rush Limbaugh says "Talent on loan from God" he ought to say "existence on loan from God" too. It is God's very essence to exist, and when he brings other things into existence he imparts to them a little bit of his essential existence. God is the only being who did not (and can not) ever have nonexistence. Even our souls are capable of not existing from the time of our mortal death until the general resurrection. It was a lie of the Serpent in the garden that we do not die which led to the doctrine of the immortality of the soul.
arthra
Baha'i
Well I dunno Francine...
The serpent was an ancient symbol for wisdom and maybe it was appropriated as a symbol in the Garden of Eden story.
Recall that Moses also raised a staff with a serpent (Nehushtan) on it...and fashioned it in bronze... It's purpose was to heal:
And Moses prayed for the people. 8. And the Lord said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. 9. And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived." Numbers 21:6-9.
Also Jesus seems to compare Himself to Neshushtan
Jesus said in the Gospel of John 3:14-15
"As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life."
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/jn/3.html
The serpent was an ancient symbol for wisdom and maybe it was appropriated as a symbol in the Garden of Eden story.
Recall that Moses also raised a staff with a serpent (Nehushtan) on it...and fashioned it in bronze... It's purpose was to heal:
And Moses prayed for the people. 8. And the Lord said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. 9. And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived." Numbers 21:6-9.
Also Jesus seems to compare Himself to Neshushtan
Jesus said in the Gospel of John 3:14-15
"As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life."
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/jn/3.html
Troublemane
Well-Known Member
Yep, ths serpent was telling the truth, twas god who lied. In the Genesis myth (and it was a myth taken from the babylonians,perhaps while in captivity there), ther serpent says you wont die but become like god, with knowledge of good and evil. and what happened?
God kicks out adam and eve but says 'behold the man has become as we are, with knowledge of good and evil'....they were dead to their ignorance perhaps, or had become aware that they were mortal. but they had been just ignorant beasts before. this is evolution happening.
interesting that the fruit is what did it, you know what "cortex" means in latin?
rind.
God kicks out adam and eve but says 'behold the man has become as we are, with knowledge of good and evil'....they were dead to their ignorance perhaps, or had become aware that they were mortal. but they had been just ignorant beasts before. this is evolution happening.
interesting that the fruit is what did it, you know what "cortex" means in latin?
rind.
Troublemane
Well-Known Member
Ah but thats part of my definition of God, that God = existence. So by saying only God existed you are agreeing with me, as only God exists PERIOD. There cannot be anything that exists separate from God, ever. This is why salvation cannot be conferred onto another person, it has to be done by you yourself, simply recognizing that God is everywhere and everything. Once that happens, you then realize you are part of God, as well as every other person you meet today, and maybe as the awareness grows you begin to treat people as being inherently sacred, not just because they act a certain way or talk a certain way, or follow the mosaic law,etc.
The purpose of a preisthood can never be to confer salvation on anyone, because other people are no more or less sacred than anyone else. The only purpose of a priesthood can be to remind us of the inherent sacredness of All, because we are finite beings and fallible, and we need to be reminded from time to time.
blackout
Violet.
we are fully immersed in God at all times
That is always exactly what I'm trying to convey!
When we finally choose to dive deep in Life,
and OPEN OUR EYES in the great sea/see of life
we find that God is quite literally everything.
In this "baptismal awakening"
(awakened immersion in God)
we all have the very same potential
to actively share in God Mind with Awareness
as Jesus did, as we swim through the sea of our very existence.
As well we are all of and in God just exactly the same as Jesus.
I totally agree that NOTHING exists outside of God.
Everything in existence works together to make God exactly who God is.
So Jesus was God, just as we are all God, all equally part of the great/ongoing creation that is the Cosmos.
Nicely said.