is jesus god ?

[Katzpur]

There is no question that Jesus equated Himself with God The Father. As someone noted earlier, John 8:57-59 underscores that claim. Why do you think the religious leaders of that day wanted Jesus to be cruxified? The charge against Jesus was blasphemy for His belief that He was equal with God. This is an old argument that really has no legs when you break down scripture.

And yet why do you think He also pointed out that the Father was greater than He? Why did He refer to the Father as His God? Why did He pray to the Father? Why did He say He could do nothing except as directed by the Father?

 

[Francine]

And yet why do you think He also pointed out that the Father was greater than He? Why did He refer to the Father as His God? Why did He pray to the Father? Why did He say He could do nothing except as directed by the Father?

Philippians 2:

[5] Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

[6] Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

[7] But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

[8] And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

He walked amongst us and nobody seemed surprised at His appearance. Seems l;ike a safe bet to me.

Regards,
Scott

My cat walks among us. Does Jesus have four legs?

 

[obscurus]

And yet why do you think He also pointed out that the Father was greater than He? Why did He refer to the Father as His God? Why did He pray to the Father? Why did He say He could do nothing except as directed by the Father?

If Jesus Christ has two natures (Divine and Human) in One Person then would it be hard to believe that he can speak of His Father being greater in so far as His human nature is concerned? In other words, that particular passage does not shatter the belief that Jesus is divine. That is the part of the whole mystery of the Incarnation (God taking on a human nature).

 

[Dirty Penguin]

What other "prophet" is addressed by the divine title "LORD" (in Hebrew Adonai, in Greek Kyrios)?

Well Francine gave you one reference so I won't still her thunder on that one but observe the following;

1 Kings 1:2
Wherefore his servants said unto him, Let there be sought for my lord the king a young virgin: and let her stand before the king, and let her cherish him, and let her lie in thy bosom, that my lord the king may get heat.

There may be others but I just wanted to show that others were in fact called (lord). Although in the NT you may find Yeshua referred to as "lord" I'm often reminded that when he spoke with his followers and vice versa they most likely spoke to him in (aramaic or even in hebrew) since I believe this to be the case the word that would have been used would have been (Rab in the aramaic) (Rabboni or Rabbi).

Strong's Lexicon

7229 rab rab (Aramaic) corresponding to 7227:--captain, chief, great, lord, master, stout.

4462. rhabboni hrab-bon-ee', or rhabbouni hrab-boo-nee' of Chaldee origin; corresponding to 4461:--Lord, Rabboni.

4461. rhabbi hrab-bee' of Hebrew origin (7227 with pronominal suffix); my master, i.e Rabbi, as an official title of honor:--Master, Rabbi.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Read St. John's Gospel which clearly states that the "Word was made flesh".

This shows that the writer inserted his opinion. Mind you the writer had not met Yeshua. Additionally the beginning of John is open to a ton of interpretations. Again this is why I look at the quotes that are attributed to Yeshua and when I (do) look at them in context they in no way suggest that he nor his followers thought him to be God.

When Mary was visited by her cousin Elizabeth she said "Whence is this to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me" (Luke 1:40-45) What does she mean by this? How do you know his mother did not take him to be "God in the flesh"?

Well, since I do see later in your response about context let's view. Here is a rendering I have from a christian website;
42 Elizabeth gave a glad cry and exclaimed to Mary, "You are blessed by God above all other women, and your child is blessed.

You can clearly see that Elizabeth does not equate the almighty with the child Mary was to have. She rightfully cited that Mary and Yeshua were blessed by God.

43 What an honor this is, that the mother of my Lord should visit me!

They used the word (lord) in the greek but this is a title of respect. The word most likely used was the aramaic word (rab). This is my opinion since all we have is the greek version.

The Council of Ephesus pronounced Mary Theotokos "God-bearing" thus the Mother of God

This is not something I have been able to find in the four gospels.

On the surface this particular passage seems to dispel any notion of Jesus' divinity but perhaps you are taking this quote out of context and missing a few points.

You must show what I have taken out of context. If Yeshua is God then why did they have to present him to God?

 

[Te Deum]

This is not something I have been able to find in the four gospels.

Does it matter AT ALL if something is in the Gospels? Jesus gave us a Church which later gave us Scriptures. He sent the Church as our guide - not a Book. We must follow the proclamation in 451 that Mary is the Mother of God.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Does it matter AT ALL if something is in the Gospels?

Yes. One reason is because people can makeup their own traditions. Or they can take the most obscure phrase and build a whole new religion off of it.

Jesus gave us a Church which later gave us Scriptures. He sent the Church as our guide - not a Book. We must follow the proclamation in 451 that Mary is the Mother of God.

And because I don't follow the church or the traditions of men I am able to look at the four gospels and what is revealed there. Yeshua does not reveal to us that he is God. For me, implicit statements hold no weight when viewed in full context, especially since God is so explicit in the OT......

Just my opinion.....

 

[Katzpur]

Philippians 2:

[5] Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

[6] Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

[7] But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

[8] And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

I'm aware of those verses, Francine, but you didn't exactly answer any of the questions I asked.

 

[Katzpur]

If Jesus Christ has two natures (Divine and Human) in One Person then would it be hard to believe that he can speak of His Father being greater in so far as His human nature is concerned? In other words, that particular passage does not shatter the belief that Jesus is divine.

Oh, I totally agree that He was divine. I just don't believe that He is one of three different "manifestations" of the same divine being. I believe the first century Christians saw Him in a position that was subordinate to that of His Father, which is also how I see their relationship.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

And yet why do you think He also pointed out that the Father was greater than He? Why did He refer to the Father as His God? Why did He pray to the Father? Why did He say He could do nothing except as directed by the Father?

As also noted, John 8:58 has nothing to do with Yeshua claiming he was God.


1869: "From before Abraham was, I have been." The New Testament, by G. R.
Noyes.

1935: "I existed before Abraham was born!" The Bible-An American Translation,
by J. M. P. Smith and E. J. Goodspeed.

1965: "Before Abraham was born, I was already the one that I am." Das Neue
Testament, by Jrg Zink.

1981: "I was alive before Abraham was born!" The Simple English Bible.

1984: "Before Abraham came into existence, I have been." New World
Translation of the Holy Scriptures.

These all adhere to the definitions of (ego eimi) that was used in the greek in the NT.

 

[Te Deum]

John 8:58 does indeed refer to the eternal nature of Jesus as God. This has been the interpretation of the passage since the Early Church. Our personal interpretations of Scripture are useless if they disagree with the Tradition of the Church as expressed in the infallible Councils and in the Patristics.

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][FONT=Times New Roman,Times,serif]Ver. 58.[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times,serif] Before Abraham was made, I am.[4] Christ here speaks of his eternal existence as God. St. Augustine shews this by these very words, I am. He does not say, before Abraham was made, I was made: because, as the Son of God, he never was made: but I am, which shews his eternal divine nature. (Witham)[/FONT]
[/FONT]
ST. JOHN - Chapter VIII.

What was the response after Jesus' claim in John 8:58? The Jews took stones and sought to kill Him. Why? Because what He said (namely that He is God) was considered blasphemy by then. If Jesus said something in John 8:58 that did not refer to His divinity than the Jews would not have immediately sought to kill Him because of blasphemy.

John 4:26 "Jesus said to her, 'I AM He, the one who is speaking with you.'" The use of "I AM" again refers to the Divine Name of YHWH.

John 8:28 "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will realize that I AM"

 

[Sola'lor]

John 8:58 does indeed refer to the eternal nature of Jesus as God. This has been the interpretation of the passage since the Early Church. Our personal interpretations of Scripture are useless if they disagree with the Tradition of the Church as expressed in the infallible Councils and in the Patristics.

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][FONT=Times New Roman,Times,serif]Ver. 58.[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times,serif] Before Abraham was made, I am.[4] Christ here speaks of his eternal existence as God. St. Augustine shews this by these very words, I am. He does not say, before Abraham was made, I was made: because, as the Son of God, he never was made: but I am, which shews his eternal divine nature. (Witham)[/FONT][/FONT]
ST. JOHN - Chapter VIII.

I believe Christ existed eternally just as God the Father has existed eternally. I also believe all of us existed eternally.

 

[Te Deum]

I believe Christ existed eternally just as God the Father has existed eernally. I also believe all of us existed eternally.

Why? What Scriptures show this position?

 

[Sola'lor]

Why? What Scriptures show this position?

That Christ existed eternally or that all of us existed eternally? Or both?

 

[Dirty Penguin]

John 8:58 does indeed refer to the eternal nature of Jesus as God. This has been the interpretation of the passage since the Early Church. Our personal interpretations of Scripture are useless if they disagree with the Tradition of the Church as expressed in the infallible Councils and in the Patristics.

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][FONT=Times New Roman,Times,serif]Ver. 58.[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times,serif] Before Abraham was made, I am.[4] Christ here speaks of his eternal existence as God. St. Augustine shews this by these very words, I am. He does not say, before Abraham was made, I was made: because, as the Son of God, he never was made: but I am, which shews his eternal divine nature. (Witham)[/FONT]
[/FONT]
ST. JOHN - Chapter VIII.

The biblical passages I gave were not from me. They were from scholars. It is not the general concensus that Yeshua is God. One of the scholars I cited came from a 1869 rendering. The greek words used (ego eimi) have nothing to do with Yeshua claiming he was God and the same expression (ego eimi) can be found throughout the NT. You can't surely be suggesting that everytime (ego eimi) is used it must mean that it is in reference to God? Ego Eimi is most certaily dependant upon the context of a conversation. Yeshua used the expression (ego eimi) plenty of times and the jews did not see fit to want to kill him then.

Observe Mark 3:11, Matt 11:29. There are plenty of other instances. Interesting enough (ego eimi) is also in Matt 14:27 and it is rendered as (it is). So NO. John 8:58 has nothing to do with Yeshua saying he is God and everything to do with him expressing he existed before their beloved Abraham.

John 8:58 (Stephens 1550 Textus Receptus)
eipen autoiV o ihsouV amhn amhn legw umin prin abraam genesqai egw eimi

Strong's Greek Lexicon
1473. ego eg-o' a primary pronoun of the first person I (only expressed when emphatic):--I, me.

1510. eimi i-mee' the first person singular present indicative; a prolonged form of a primary and defective verb; I exist (used only when emphatic):--am, have been, X it is I, was

The renderings I listed were in adherence to the rule;

1869: "From before Abraham was, I have been." The New Testament, by G. R.
Noyes.

1981: "I was alive before Abraham was born!" The Simple English Bible.

1984: "Before Abraham came into existence, I have been." New World
Translation of the Holy Scriptures.

Additionally from a Catholic source;
The Brazilian Sacred Bible published by the Catholic Bible Center of São Paulo says: "Before Abraham existed, I was existing.
2nd edition, of 1960, Bíblia Sagrada, Editora "AVE MARIA" Ltda.

Here's the context. A question was asked and Yeshua answered;

[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica]57 The people said, "You aren't even fifty years old. How can you say you have seen Abraham?


58 Jesus answered, "The truth is, I existed before Abraham was even born!"
[/FONT]
Pre-esixtence in it of itself is not a total valid claim of deity. If it was then we would have to submit that God's angelic beings are deity.

 

[Te Deum]

That Christ existed eternally or that all of us existed eternally? Or both?

What Scriptures show the position that all of us existed eternally?

 

[trinity2359]

What Scriptures show the position that all of us existed eternally?

Those would be LDS Scriptures - probably the Book of Moses or Abraham from Pearl of Great Price.

 

[Francine]

Those would be LDS Scriptures - probably the Book of Moses or Abraham from Doctrine and Convenants.

Christ said, "Before Abraham was, I am." If all of us originate in the Pre-Existence then Christ could not have made that statement.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Christ said, "Before Abraham was, I am." If all of us originate in the Pre-Existence then Christ could not have made that statement.

Stop being logical :slap:...it ruins arguments.